Leaky Mast Step

Scary Stuff! :eek:

The Graphite Powder should really make the mast spin in it's step :D All that West Systems stuff cost $165 CDN - I hope it's better then good :) The problem I have right now is the temperature - it's 11c today so I might have to wait for things to warm up...
 

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I started off by sending a cup or two of acetate down the tube in order to clean the inside of the tube and the bottom where it's leaking inside the boat into the well.

According to everyone on the site, the proper depth for the mast step tube is 14"
Mine is 14.25" deep meaning my mast ground a full quarter of an inch from the bottom of the tube over the years. This is ultimately what led to the leak along with wear at the bottom front of the tube.

So, my plan is to pour epoxy down the tube until the total depth is 14" again. My hope is that the epoxy will run out the bottom of the tube and begin to fill the well inside the boat (between the plywood flange and the tube) so that every porous nook and cranny is filled and the whole unit becomes one big mass of solid epoxy.

Either way, the goal is that the tube be 14" deep and that the well between the plywood flange and the tube is one solid block of epoxy. After that, I want to epoxy in a stainless steel plate in the bottom of the tube.

My goal is to not only repair the boat but also to future-proof it so that it's stronger then before and re-designed so that this never happens again.

The ambient temperature here is about 11c during the day - fairly cold. I bought the Slow Hardener based on doing this job in the summer. The West specs say you can use that down to 16c ambient. I think I might have to exchange that for a can of Fast Hardener because it works down to an ambient of 4c.

Anyway, I'm getting closer and if anyone is still reading this thread and has any ideas or cautions - please let me know - I haven't done this before :eek:

PS> Nobody commented on the orange picture above showing the wear area in the mast tube. I personally thought it was an excellent picture and really showed off the thin spots in the tube!

There outta be an award or something... :eek::D:):rolleyes:
 

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Just a quick observation... I could not remove all of the bondo no matter how hard I tried. I got 90% of it but I would have preferred to get it all.

I noticed something though...after pouring acetone down the step (which causes it to leak out into the well inside the boat) I found that it began to attack the remaining bondo making it much easier to remove.

I'm going to let it sit so that it can fully permeate it and hopefully remove all the remaining bondo so that more epoxy can get in there and bond to the fiberglass :D
 
When I reinforced my mast tube I included the "top" junction to the deck. That meant flipping the boat deckside down and adding the thickened epoxy to form the fore mentioned fillet. I don't have a before pic of the top but it looked pretty rough and nasty....so I took the time to include it. The last pic is the top preped for epoxy.
I mounted a small mirror on a "base" and placed it in strategic spots as I navigated around the tube. It was not the most fun one could have but it could have been much worse :cool:

...meant to upload the first 3 pics in reverse order...oh well!
 

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Hi Eric!

I've been thinking along the same lines. I'd like to re-enforce the entire tube with wraps of glass to build it back up and then some. I figured I'd look at the top at the same time because the rear of the top should be a wearing spot (due to the mast load).

Right now I'm having a blast with the Acetone. I'm finding that the remaining bodo is somewhat porous and that it's absorbing the acetone turning it into a soft putty or clay-like substance. That's making it WAY easier for me to remove all traces of the remaining bondo.

Prior to that 'discovery' I had left a full portion of bondo on the backside of the tube that was hard to get at. As a result of the acetone working I'm now able to get a screwdriver all the way around the tube so the only bondo that's remaining is a very small amount at the very bottom of the tube. I'd like to get that out too if possible and then I'm really looking forward to gluing the whole thing together. I mean, I can't wait to push that epoxy into every possible gap in the well between the tube and the plywood.

I'm dead certain that this is going to be the ultimate in bullet-proofing the step. I was just talking about it with someone and if I was looking for a used boat and had a choice between one without a repair and one that's been repaired like ours I would choose the latter - if anything it's going to be stronger then factory by a long shot.

I wish I could have bought less of the West product. I'm quite sure I'm going to have lots left over. When I look at how much is going to be needed for the repair and contrast that to the amount I've got (and it's the smallest amount) there's going to be leftovers...

I found a soft spot in my hull :eek: The good news is that it's pretty close to my inspection port so I bought enough glass mat to do the entire strip there. Might as well kill all the birds I can at the same time :D
 
..."having a BLAST with acetone"....you are easily amused....I'll send you some old bondo from some of the body shops I frequent and you can spend all winter doing whatever you do that makes you sooo happy!! :D:eek:
I trust that few "normal" people read all this stuff... but the rest of us spend way too much time enjoying the pending workload of others...like yours ;)
Eric
 
..."having a BLAST with acetone"....

Well, part of that is that while I'm working on getting the last of the bondo, the fumes are rising up through the inspection port.... and right into my face... :eek:

I hope people read this post - that's the primary reason I'm taking so much time and adding so many pictures to it. I'm hoping someone will come in later and have their own little how-to guide :)
 
Well, part of that is that while I'm working on getting the last of the bondo, the fumes are rising up through the inspection port.... and right into my face... :eek:

I hope people read this post - that's the primary reason I'm taking so much time and adding so many pictures to it. I'm hoping someone will come in later and have their own little how-to guide :)
...that reminds me...in 1992 I flew freight out of San Antonio to Laredo,Tx (home for 9 mo, 3 wks, 4 days, 7 hrs, 12 mins and 83 seconds!) One morning as I was about to taxi out ...a STRONG vapor from the steel mesh barrier screen behind me overtook the cockpit. I shut the plane down (it was the same plane as in the picture there on the left) and opened the door to get some fresh air. "They" were quite pissed to have to unload all the freight to get to "the package" ...but when they found a busted bottle of your famous Acetone ...they eased up on me for delaying the flight.
I'm just glad that it was discovered before take off. ...so enjoy your bondo extraction! :)
 
That's scary! I wonder if that's what happened to that other FedEx guy who ended up stuck on that Island for years and years? Somebody FedEx'ed something they shouldn't have... :D

WILSON!! :D:)

I think I'm going to bite the bullet today and fill in the step... :eek: I've got a heat gun around here somewhere....

I checked the step this morning and I think I've gotten all the bondo out that I can. About the only thing that's left is the bondo under the tube and when I look at the surface of the tube and the plywood flange there's ton's of surface area for the glue to stick too. I think we're good to go.. :eek:

Wish me luck - I'm going in..... :eek:

PS> How did you pour the epoxy down the tube? How did you measure it to make sure it's 14" ? I'm outta control !!!! :D
 

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Talk it to death....that's how you do it!!!
Just take a deep breath and pour....super easy... You know what to do!
Eric
 
Talk it to death....that's how you do it!!!
Just take a deep breath and pour....super easy... You know what to do!
Eric

Yup, we have nothing to fear except fear itself :D

xflyer95 said:
...btw it's 80F...that's 26.6C (Canadian) here today... :<)

Sheesh.... it's 9c right now (48.2 US) :) I found a way to work around all of that though.....

I cut a pop can open and it turned out to be a really useful device. It's about the same size as the mast tube so you can gage the amount of epoxy. If you need 1/4" in the tube put a 1/4" in the can. The other thing that's handy about it is that you can bend the can into a pouring spout - no funnel required.

I put a temperature probe inside the hull so that I can see what the actual ambient is at the epoxy level - it's 22.2c and the minimum spec for the slow hardener is 16c so we're all OK. Now maybe it's just me but I think this has got to be the nicest epoxy job I've ever done :D I particularly like the last pic with the level in it :cool:
 

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Not so fast!

I still had to install the stainless steel wear plate :)

If I remember right you mentioned not to drop it into the wet epoxy because it would sink to the bottom.

According to West you can't add another layer of epoxy to existing epoxy unless the first layer of epoxy is still tacky. So, I waited until the epoxy was tacky and then coated the bottom of the disk with some more epoxy.

I then dropped the disk into the tube only to find that it promptly flipped upside down :eek::mad: That meant that the side that was coated with epoxy was facing up. Gouvernail mentioned earlier that the mast cannot ride on bare epoxy because it won't turn and can actually break the gooseneck on the mast.

Try as I might I could not get the damn thing back out. So I left it in and then used a piece of my cockpit grabrail with a cloth on it soaked in acetone to remove the epoxy. It worked out OK in the end (see pic).

The epoxy was still wet enough to hold the disk but not so wet that the disk sank. Near disaster was avoided :D

If I measure from the middle of the disk from the front to the rear of the tube it's at exactly 14" It's a little off on the sides by about a milimeter but that's about as close as you can get (I think) without actually drilling a square hole in the mast tube :D

Anyway, there's darn little epoxy left on the disk so the mast should turn OK. I moved the hair dryer inside the boat on top of two blocks of wood and now the ambient temperature is about 50c - or, about twice as hot as Texas :D:):eek:

It's hard to the touch now and in a few hours it will be finished. Then it's on to building up the mast tube. I don't think I'm going to run glass mat from the hull up to the tube. When I look at the existing fiberglassed wooden flange it's clear to me that it's never going to break off. There's no way that the epoxy is ever going to break loose - I actually felt the heat under the step from the exothermic reaction and that leads me to believe that I succeeded in getting some epoxy under the step - which is exactly what I wanted. It's glued so solid it's never going to break off.

That moves the weak link to the tube. It's pretty thin at the bottom front so I'm going to build that puppy up so that it will take decades for the mast to wear through it :D

Sorry for the long post, I know I'm long-winded but I'm having fun. I love doing bullet-proof work :)
 

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For future reference, to properly install the disk, get a yard stick (or as we say in Maine, a yahd stick) and tape the disk to it with some scotch tape. add more layer of tape to the stick and only one or two tabs on the disk. use another stick to hold the disk down and then quickly pull off the yahd stick, and viola, it is in place.
 
....and viola, it is in place.

I thought I heard music at one point... :D Thanks Pete - that was sage advice. To be honest, I knew that before I placed the disk but I thought I would be lucky and that it would just fly in their perfectly. I was very sure of this until it landed upside down :mad:

I just wrapped the lower part of the tube. I wasn't very comfortable doing it but I think it worked out. I primed the surface of the tube by sanding with 80 grit aluminum oxide sand paper and then cleaned it up with acetone.

After that I cut a long piece of cloth about 4" wide and then used a brush to coat the tube. I then wrapped the cloth around the tube and then wetted it down and tried my best to remove any air etc.

The cloth I cut was long enough for 4 successive wraps so I just kept wrapping and stopped at every turn to re-wet the cloth and to massage out any air. I used rubber gloves and just got in there and did it. It seems to have worked OK but it did wreck the brush. In the future I'll just rubber glove the whole thing and save a brush :D

I put a LOT of glue on that wrap :)
 

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Ok...looking at your latest picture it is my UNprofessional opinion that you could still use some build-up of glass saturated epoxy in the "moat" ...so as to create that "fillet" that we talked about way back when.

I would form it like a "ramp" shaped ring above the new epoxy. Imagine if water (heaven forbid) was running down the outside of the tube it would flow away from the base of the tube (because of the build-up of structural,glass filled epoxy)

At the moment it appears that the "water" would collect at the base of tube.
This extra epoxy (and stuff) provides a structual transition of "load" from the hull up thru the lower part of the tube.

It also makes for a nice smooth surface to add vertically oriented strips of glass mat along the tube base outward to the hull. Gouvernail had mentioned in earlier threads of the need to use glass mat to provide vertical or downward tension on the tube...to keep the hull from pulling away (down) from the tube.

...you know bulletproof...;)

Eric
 
You know, my Dad came by and he mentioned the same thing - running 4 sheets of glass from the hull up to the tube. I didn't want to do it because, quite frankly, my repair looks way better :D

I mean, it's cool. There's a nice solid moat and a nice buildup of glass in the primary wearing area. It's a nice looking job if I do say so myself. :)

My rationale for not running glass from the deck to the tube has been that the square flange is solid and that it's also the way Laser did the job when they built the boat.

I hadn't really thought about the hull pulling down and away from the tube. My thinking has been all in the area of lateral shear strength. Can the mast exert a lateral force such that it breaks the square flange? I'm quite sure that the epoxy and the flange can be thought of as a one piece unit (now) and that the only way lateral shear would kill it would be if it could rip the flange out.

I had not thought about vertical forces acting on the tube other then the grinding of the mast into the tube. Maybe you're right. My Dad was pretty adamant about it. The thing is, it won't look as good. I got one of the clear inspection ports just so that I could look at it every once in a while :D

I'll have to think about it some more. I can't really foresee stress that would cause the tube/flange assembly to want to pull apart vertically though. You wouldn't happen to recall the gov's post about that would you? I do recall seeing something about it but I can't fathom where... Maybe it's the fumes.

EDIT: Found it here

I love the smell of curing Epoxy in the morning :D
 
yeah! that's it!...I believe he was helping Kaiser...who later helped me :eek:
That post is pretty rich.

Keep rolling my friend...you're almost there :D

Eric
 
Tomorrow - it's getting late now (here at least).

I think I understand the issue now. One of the main points in that post seemed to be that we don't know what the bondo is like under the tube and that the only vertical adhesion is the thin layer where the expoxy is currently joined to the tube (the moat).

Earlier I mentioned that I consider the tube and the flange to be a single piece because they've been properly glued together (so they're never going to come apart). By extension of that thinking, if I lay mat from the hull to the tube, then, for all intents and purposes, the hull, flange & tube become one big piece. Structurally sound to say the least. Probably the only way it could fail would be if it encountered a force strong enough to rip the bottom of the boat out. :eek:

Tomorrow I'm going to do another 4 wraps around the base of the tube (8 total) just because I know that's the primary wearing part of the tube and I want it to be extra thick.

After that I'll follow your advice and run strips up to the tube from the hull. As you said, so it's bullet-proof. I just have to come up with a way to make it look nice :D

Thanks Eric! Good of you to highlight that issue because I wasn't going to do it. :)
 
...you could take a picture of it now...have it nicely framed...and hang it over a fireplace mantel with a soft incandescent light shining on it for all to see :rolleyes:...



fumes...!
 
Gouvernail had mentioned in earlier threads of the need to use glass mat to provide vertical or downward tension on the tube...to keep the hull from pulling away (down) from the tube.

OK, I wrapped mat around the tube 4 more times (so now there's 8 wraps around the bottom of the tube) and I think I'll leave it there.

Now, with respect to glassing mat from the hull to the tube, I've looked at gouvernail's page and he doesn't specifically mention it. He does mention it in the thread linked above but try as I might I can't find any specifics about it.

Specifically, what size mat? How far up the tube? In how many places? etc. I'm almost there but my brain is lacking. When I laid the last 4 strips around the tube I built up the moat a bit so that it's pretty much level (should make it easier to run mat up).

Any ideas Eric? :)
 
I think....(danger danger :eek:) that laterally, you are bulletproof. What Gouv is probably saying is that the tube is the sole device that connects the deck to the hull in the mast region.
Therefore it warrents consideration with respect to bonding and "such"
The remainder of the deck/hull bond is accomplished at the cockpit corners...and we KNOW that there are countless posts/threads, pictures, analylsis, factory tour pictures and ideas concerning separation issues.
SOMETHING :eek: is happening along the way (usually water) that contributes to this problem.
Sooo....a bulletproof "link" in the area of the boat that probably receives lots of different kinds of stress (mast region) is excellent insurance ;)

If you had a trailer that supported the boat at the gunnels, then it would be even more important IMO to support the hull internally (from inertia) as you bounced down those logging trails that you love so much.

Take another look at the 4 pics I put up the other day and you can see my idea of placing the strips to accomplish this task....looks just like Kaisers :)
 
Aha - I hadn't thought of it as a structural area to help hold the hull & the deck together - that makes good sense.

Thanks for pointing me back to your picture - it's a much better way then how I was apporaching it. I was going to run long strips from the hull to the step (which created a lot of extra sanding).

I'm going to change course and copy your method - it looks really, really solid. I've already got the tube sanded down and going out only a couple of inches on the hull is going to save me a lot of time :D

I'm looking forward to completing this section of the pie :) Stay tuned for the last of the pics :) BTW, I poured water in it this morning and it's not leaking. I knew that beforehand but I tried it anyway :cool:
 
Sweeeet :D ....BTW I added strips at the top as well...just thought I'd add to the "pie"

Just remembeer beer goes with pie ...when you're all done I'll toast a Lonestar with you! :)
 
Hahaha - don't get me started with the beer :D I've still got a lot of work to do up here :) With respect to the top, I'm going to leave that for next beer - I mean, next year :eek:

The top on mine shows little signs of wear (at this point) and I'm getting tired of being in that area. Given that I have lots of epoxy I can re-visit it when my interest is higher :) Right now I want to complete it, pull it out of the car port and put it back where it belongs knowing that I can sail it at a moment's notice.

That last part is key. I haven't had that ability for more then 10 years. :cool:
 
MM, looks like you spent as much time on the posts and pics as you did on the step repair. Sure do appreciate all your questions/pics and everyone's answers. I am starting on my documentation pics and renovation ('73 laser) this weekend and am lapping up all the forum help I can get. I'll be starting with inspection port(s) and cleaning/drying out the interior and a hard look at what needs doing. Judging from previous patch jobs on the underside I suspect both mast step and centerboard trunk will need repair/reinforcement. So I'll eventually be wading into the epoxy and glass world behind you, Eric and so many other posters. I stick some pics up as it gets interesting.;)

Thanks again for all the documentation.
 
You're quite welcome :) The whole point behind the long thread (for me) was to gain enough experienced information and then document the job. I think it worked out pretty good even if it is a bit long-winded :D

I finally got around to laying up the last of the mat from the hull to the tube. Sanding down the tube and the hull was a bit of a pain. Once done I poured a ton of acetone on the whole works in preparation for laying the mat.

The problem is that the boat was tilted back. So once everything around the tube was dry I levelled the boat back off and began laying mat with epoxy. Well, as it turns out, the boat still had a bunch of acetone in the rear that then came forward and promptly soaked my newly laid mat. :mad::confused::mad:

So, I had to peel off all the mat and clean up the epoxy with the acetone lying in the bottom of the boat. Once it all dried up I had to re-sand the whole shebang so that I would have a nice rough finish for my second attempt. :D

Anyway, long & short is that I got the bottom nicely roughed up again so thye epoxy would bond at full strength. I then laid new mat from the hull up to the tube. Up to this point the entire repair was a piece of cake. I found laying the 4 strips from the hull to the tube quite challenging though. I cheated a bit and cut minor slots into the mat where it wants to bend up over the edge of the step. I realize that this will reduce the structural bond by a bit, but there's 4 strips with at least 60% of the strip intact all the way up the tube.

Even so, it was a pain. I did all 4 at once and if I had to do it again I would do one at at a time, let them dry, sand the edges where the next strip will overlap and approach it that way. More time consuming but it would have been a lot more fun then trying to make 4 separate overlapping strips attach to the tube, the flange and the hull at the same time without air pockets etc.

Every time I smoothed out one strip it would tend to come at the cost of another strip. In some ways I was just moving air pockets around the strips :D Before I forget, I would say that these secondary attachments count as another strip around the pole so the lower section has been wrapped 9 times now :)

Anyway, it's done, I think. I can't see it going anywhere. It's not quite as pretty as I would have liked but the only way to make it look perfect would have been to do one strip at a time. Here's a pic so you can see what it turned out like....I suspect I'll have to sand off a few of the gloobers when it's dried :)
 

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Alot of good info here, but can anyone share some stuff on the repair "kit" that replaces the deck and tube? I have a "repaired" hull that looks like shiite, bt it came with a repair kit. Well, at least part of it from reading the previous posts.
I have the deck and tube piece, and the "flared" flange that it (seats?) into, but no lower base plate or template for the cutout.

Help a bro!

btw, this my second hull, the '73 I just rehabbed looks nice, this is an '82 and an old club boat, but it was cheap and I got plenty of extra spars and parts with it.
 
Having now done a mast step crack repair and reinforcement, the only thing I can add to what's already been written is that if I had it to do again, I'd go ahead and cut two inspection ports placed so that I could reach/work on the mast step base with both hands at one time.

The ease and neatness of the completed job would more than offset the fact that there's now an additional inspection port.
 
Hi Steven!

I agree that having two ports would make the job considerably easier. In my case though, I had a hard enough time installing one because I was of the erroneous mindset that an inspection port was an ugly thing and detracted from the Laser's appearance. :eek:

Now that I've got one, and have done the mast step job, I've got say that it's become a very important feature. I think it's critical to be able to see into the boat, and specifically into the mast step area. If I had any used boat, whether leaking or not, I'd immediately install one.

I'm going to change mine over to one with a bag inside. I can't tell you how many times I've been out sailing and my single biggest fear was that I might loose my keys to the car when I dump the boat. Cell phones, lighters, you name it - it can all go into an inspection port with a bag and it will all stay bone dry - and out of the way.

I just did a test rig of my boat the other day (I still haven't been out on it!) and I've got to say, my mast step is truly bullet-proof. There's absolutely no way that it's ever going to cause an issue unless it's able to rip out the bottom of the boat. The repair not only fixed the leak but it's brought me a lot of peace of mind and pride in the job :D It's MUCH stronger then factory.
 
Well, it's been almost a year since the repair (and this thread) and I finally got to go sailing the other day!

It was the first time I'd been out in the Laser in - gasp - 13 years :eek: I had all sorts of worries the night before but as it turns out, they were all unfounded. Once I got out past the breakwater I found a 20 knot wind that kept me on an easy fast tack for about 7 nautical miles...:D It was a great way to get re-acquainted with the boat and with being way out there :)

I spent the entire day on the water, got the boat totally soaked on a continual basis and, when I got home, I found about a tablespoon of water in the hull. :)

I was hoping for none, but that wasn't bad. It's considerably less then a cup of water and I think it's coming from the dagger board slot as it's the only place I haven't re-sealed. That was in about 6 hours of mostly heavy sailing.

Anyway, the good news it that I was able to head way out into the salt chuck without taking on any appreciable water and knowing that the mast step will be the last thing to break :D

I'm buying some new cleats today, doing some trailer upgrades and a few other things so that she'll once again be safe in a 40 knot wind.

Here's the proof - a shot of me trying to figure out, after more then 10 years, how to rig it!
 

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