Laser Quality

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by viktor188924, Jun 7, 2007.

  1. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    it is

    in NA, Laser's biggest asset is Vanguard, without Vanguard, their wouldent be Laser sailing in NA

    unless of course some other company picked up Laser, but everyone would still bitch and moan about it
     
  2. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Having just completed some "Laser Surgery"
    http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=6507

    I thought I'd add my 2 cents regarding this subject.

    I you look at my other thread, you will see that mine is a 1979 Canadian built boat. I have addressed the hull separation issue and joined the aft cockpit bulkhead back to the hull and stringers. During the course of this exercise, I have talked to as many "Laser Guys" as possible and did considerable internet research. I also looked at a lot of boats.

    Observations as follows:

    1. I noticed that the deck screws were of an inferior grade of stainless and showed signs of corosion. I replaced every screw on the deck with marine grade stainless.

    2. Both grab rails were broken due to a combination of stresses when attached and most likely heating and cooling cycles. I suspect that they were somewhat brittle to begin with. My friend has a 1989 boat, and the rails are a different type of plastic and look almost new.

    3. The after cockpit bulkhead was originally attached to the thru-hull recess and stringers with three wads of thickened resin, and the thru-hull bushing was made of plastic. From people I spoke with, this method and choice of materials is why many boats of this vintage can separate and leak. I am told that newer boats have a brace running athwartship at the after bulkhead as an attachment point and use a bronze thru-hull bushing.

    4. In an effort to save money, one length of screw was used. These stuck in quite far into the inside of the boat. when reaching around in there, one had to be careful.

    In conclusion, I would say that the assertion that Canadian built boats were "better" can neither be confirmed or denied. I have only worked on a few other boats and none were in as bad a condition as this one. What this does illustrate is that if you neglect something (like this 1979 Laser) it will deteriorate quite repidly. I would imagine that whoever is making the boats now has probably learned a lot from the past mistakes of others and todays Laser is probably a better overall boat than its predecessors.

    FWIW
     
  3. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    '1. I noticed that the deck screws were of an inferior grade of stainless and showed signs of corosion. I replaced every screw on the deck with marine grade stainless."


    gotta remember the builders gotta make a buck here, they can't use $50 screws, and today's boats are much better then the older ones, also you said your boat was a 79, that stuff is gonna rust



    "4. In an effort to save money, one length of screw was used. These stuck in quite far into the inside of the boat. when reaching around in there, one had to be careful."

    thats just practical, how many people are going to be putting their hands down the boat anyways, you have to put a hole in there first, which no one wants to do
     
  4. viktor188924

    viktor188924 New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey, I get it. I knew my first post on this thread was foolish from the start. I know that it is a direct criticization (i think thats a word) and I wish I could have worded it differently. Notice that in my recent posts I have already apologized for this. A few of the people I know have made their opinions heard about what this thread concerns, and so I guess I'm biased. However: I am not here to hit anyone below the belt, just want some thought process... something to talk about... I'm glad you've noticed my change in humor about this subject. Please excuse my first post.

    And I ONLY want you guys to "throw in your comments and experiences"

    And yes I understand you were talking about the past. I was just speculating, trying to get some people interesting, getting on the same train of thought. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm glad you posted some of the "Laser lore which has been passed down though the ages." I learned something.

    It would seems so. It's impossible to know the exact profits they get for each boat in each class, but to the naked eye....
     
  5. madyottie

    madyottie Apprentice

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I just have to query something mentioned earlier....

    Optimist is the worlds biggest o/d fleet?
    dont think so
    The last figures I saw put laser at no.1, and Hobie 16 cat at no.2.

    Is the oppy truly one design? there are multitudes of builders, spar suppliers, sailmakers, and foil builders, and of course the boats can be built from fibreglass, wood, or a composite of both.

    they do have fairly strict tolerances, but anyone can build them, and with 4mm on most things, thats a lot of scope for variation. A friend of mine in NZ built about four different shaped hulls trying to give his son an edge, and they all passed measurement.

    Laser and Hobie both keep a very strict control over their builders,
    and over a quarter of a million people sail these two boats worldwide, so something must be right.

    Just out of interest, IOCA claims to have just over 150,000 optimists worldwide. They dont quote an exact figure.
     
  6. Cenutrio

    Cenutrio New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think vanguard lasers quality is ok, love the colors and some details. Based on quality/price, they are the best laser deal out there by a large margin.
     
  7. Cenutrio

    Cenutrio New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Back in the mid 90s I remember the optimist class annual magazine claiming +300,000 boats built worldwide (the ioda site claims "Sailed in over 110 countries by over 150,000 young people").

    The 300 grand figure, I believe to the line, but just my 2 cents.


    ex-optimist sailor, being a winner ESP9706 my last. I was 182 cm high when I moved on...:)
     
  8. viktor188924

    viktor188924 New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah me too, but I had to move on at the age of 13. I'm a tall dude. Wow yeah 300,000 is a whole lot of boats. Definitely....
     
  9. viktor188924

    viktor188924 New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Right. Well I didn't notice it the first time I read it, but you're right... how is Opti a one-design?
     
  10. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

    Likes Received:
    55
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Keep in mind that 300k figure includes a bunch of home-built boats, not hulls with a serial number coming from a licensed builder. It would think it was an estimate at best.

    At one point in time, 50 years ago or more, the Optimist was supposed to be an ultra-low-cost class. The hull was designed to be built from a single piece of marine-grade plywood (maybe two). The idea was to keep costs down and and gets lots of kids sailing.

    The class has obviously changed, with $3000+ hulls and $1000 blades being spent by rich yacht club parents with deep pockets. It almost seems worse
    about hardware wars than some Olympic classes. I have heard many parents complain about spending more on their kid's Opi each than spending on a keelboat like a J/24.

    I think the class may be a bit of a victim of its own success. Definitely some lessons which can be learned by the Laser class.
     
  11. viktor188924

    viktor188924 New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Yes, that WAS Clark Mills' idea, wasn't it. I've only seen a handful of the old-model boats. But, I think, that the evolution of the Optimist has actually helped kids get into the sport. You can't blame people for wanting a head-up on another competitor. Besides, a lot of Optimist sailors grow up to become world-class champions... and even better: Laser sailors =0P
     
  12. madyottie

    madyottie Apprentice

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    oh, just before anyone picks us up on it, the IOCA is part of the IODA. it wasn't a typo by either of us!
     
  13. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ross:

    Regarding the screws, your points are well taken, except for the fact that a 1.1/4" screw would've been sufficient to penetrate both the glass and the plywood backing. In fact a 1" screw would probably do just as well. I could not find any place on the boat where a 2 1/4" screw was necessary. They probably got a good deal on them and in my opinion were penny wise and pound foolish.
     
  14. Josef

    Josef New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Would you care to explain what exactly the rules have to do with obvious misstakes in manufacturing?
    The rules might have flaws but they're defently not forcing vanguard to make misstakes in manufacturing.
     
  15. Ross B

    Ross B Guest


    Well I never meant to say that the rules force them to botch the boats and pump out pieces of shit, dunno how you got that

    I meant that if the rules were changed, the boats could be built with much high quality materials, and could last a lot longer, instead of replacing a boat every year, more like every 3 or 5 years, make them stiffer and all around better
     
  16. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    this is probably true, they might also use that size screw on other boats they use, so they figure, lets order 10 million of X size screw and we'll save a pretty penny by using it for everything

    besides, is this screw physically hurting you while you sail? the majority of the length of the screw is in the boat, you can't see it, it's really not that big a deal how long it is

    we should all just be thankful it's a tad bit to long

    I'd rather have a longer screw than a to short screw, and have it pull out on me at the start, don't you agree?
     
  17. Cenutrio

    Cenutrio New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I agree with many posts around, including how expensive optimist sailing can be (it already was back in the mid 80s when I was still strongly involved in the class as a sailor). However, if you check recent world podiums you see a bunch of south Americans, South Asians, etc, ruling in the classifications. Europe is not the major force anymore, but countries that are economically challenge (to some extend). I know there are many rich people in these countries too, however not all of the top sailors belong to the upper classes. So economics is a factor, but not the only one. I would say that european sailors being physically bigger younger, can be a factor too.

    Just a thought.
     
  18. viktor188924

    viktor188924 New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    But do you think that they are sailing boats that are significantly worse than the other competitor's boats? I don't know because I'm not familiar with any of these sailors, their families, and I don't know what they sail. Once again, you can't blame the families that are well off for wanting their child to have the best out there, and possibly give them the upper hand. Wouldn't you do that for your kid (hypothetical)? But I do agree with your overall message. Great boats don't make great sailors. The boat is merely a tool.
     
  19. Josef

    Josef New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, I'm still using a boat from '90.
    I've considered getting a new one on several occations but after comparing new boats to mine I've seen no reason to.
    The hull is just as stiff as new boats, the weight is the same, it has some soft spots in the cockpit but thats about it (dosn't matter anyway so =P).
    Now add that I treat my boat like a pience of crapp... If people are having problems with boats 3-4 years old now then there's defently something wrong =p
    I also know alot of other people with boats around the same age and they're all fine.

    Anyway, what he pointed out was not things that comes from using normal materials, but things that is caused by misstakes in manufacturing.

    Unless the boats are total crapp I can not understand why that would be needed.
    I've compared pretty much every single inch of my boat to new boats and there is no diffrence on the stuff that matters, neather do I feel any speed diffrence between my boat and new boats.
    I'm quite sure the only reason, unless the new boats are actualy total crapp, why people switch so often is cause of psycological reason (which is quite understandable, need to be sure that you have the absolute best to be able to performe =P).

    Maybe I've gotten lucky with my boat, but considering that I know of many other boats of similar age that are quite ok that dosn't seem very likely. Maybe european boats are just that much better, I don't know.
     
  20. John Gilmour

    John Gilmour Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6

Share This Page