Klutz and Fatso Rule 42 Proposal

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by gouvernail, Nov 5, 2005.

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Can the current one pump per wave rule be improved?

Poll closed Dec 5, 2005.
  1. No. It is perfect as it is.

    10 vote(s)
    71.4%
  2. Maybe and we should at least try to improve it.

    4 vote(s)
    28.6%
  1. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    As usual I am looking for a solution not for an argument.
    It is simple to chop down most any suggestion as few are perfect.

    Let's see if we can keep this thread rolling along sort of like:
    "I see where you are coming from and why. But I don't think your solution is on the right track. Here is another positive contribution which may solve the problem."

    Rule 42 as written gives a distinct disadvantage to anyone who is either a poor pumper or a big sailor.
    A sailors is allowed one pump per wave and that pump can only be used to cause planing when planing conditions exist.

    If you fail to get on plane and the skipper next to you pumps once and jumps on plane. All you can do is watch the other boat sail away.

    The cause of the difference in launching onto that wave may only be the other sailor is brutally strong. ( Rule 42 Does not always keep muscle out of the game.)

    The cause may be that the other sailor is a lot lighter and the pump vs his / her weight was much more effective. ( Rule 42 favoring one size of sailor?? That would be bad wouldn't it?)

    The cause may be the other sailor is just a lot better at the game. ( So as you sit there with no weapons to keep up you are left behind by a LOT because you are just a little less effective. Rule 42 is sold as effective because it supposedly keeps the coordinated and trained sailors from abusing the rest of the sailors and keeps the fleet together.)


    OK SO suppose we had a rule that, when others are planing, allowed the klutzes and fatsos to pump until their arms fell off or until they were also planing.

    The astute committee would fly a flag when in their opinion at least some of the fleet was planing.

    The flag could be flown at a mark or by a boat ( hopefully making a big wake) blasting across the top of the fleet on the leg where the committee felt the pumping would allow klutzes and fatsos to keep up better.

    Please! If you don't like the general concept behind the concept of my proposal at least take the time to honestly compare it to the status quo.

    Currently Rule 42 is written such that if planing conditions exist for some, they can use their pump to end the game with those who cannot.

    My proposal may be flawed. Perhaps even fundamentally. But the current rule is an abomination as well.

    I am proposing at least one idea which might fix the abomination. What is your suggestion for improving or correcting the current unfair situation?
     
  2. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Gouvernail,
    I'd like a clarification, to help you lead this post to where you are aiming. The way you've written this post means that you do not want replies from people who like Rule 42 the way it is. You only want a discussion on how to change it. Is this correct?

    Merrily
     
  3. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    clarification response:

    In chatting with many sailors this weekend, I mentioned my concept about a flag restricted ( as in only when the flag is flying at the begining of a leg) rule that would allow all sailors to pump as many times as it took to INITIATE planing.
    My described concept was and is that it would make sailing down reaches on plane more fair to those who are not so good at pumping or not so strong as those of us who can really wail on a sail.
    NO SAILOR responded 100% negatively. Some thought the rule would be difficult to use as they doubted race committees would understand the concept.
    Unfortunatly ( in my opinion) there are sailors who believe rule 42 is a perfect and forever rule which can never be modified for any reason and that is as it should always be and should always have been.

    I have never been very good at having discussions with people whose minds are that set on anything. With respect to sailboat racing and the rules of sailing, I have sailed with cotton sails and rules which required retirement when a boat touched a biuuoy or fouled another competitor. Sometimes I still like to assemble a gang and sail under the old rules for a weekend.
    But

    I am always willing to try new things in search of greater fun for everyone.

    So.. You probably read my comments correctly. I really have no use for "discussions" with those whose minds are closed.
    As I opened my note. I like to discuss not argue. Most of the time discusions bear fruit. Arguments polarize.
     
  4. HECS

    HECS New Member

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    Gouve, you seem to be assuming that many of those who disagree with you have closed minds. That is incorrect. For example, I'm currently promoting or creating major changes in two of the classes I sail and I vote FOR pumping to be allowed in a class I joined before pumping was allowed.

    So from a personal perspective I can say that some of us do NOT oppose this because we have closed minds but because we strongly believe that these proposals are bad for the class and will use public forums like these to demonstrate our reasoning (as if that of a certain Robert Schiedt isn't enough).

    You seem to be implying we are not willing to keep this as a discussion, but it's not "our side" that is using terms like "closed minds" about "your" side.

    Some of the pro-pumpers keep talking about the heavyweight's problems. The world champ of the Apprentices is 85kg and he has beaten Olympic medallists in light airs at 88 kg. Are you really proposing that you can be a world champ/Olympian beater at 85kg, but not be able to compete locally at 90kg/200lb??

    I don't know how good your local fleet is.....how many Olympians turn up for your races? Here, we have recent/current world champs in Radial; Open APprentice; Open Masters; Radial Apprentice; Radial Masters; Women Masters; and 3rd & 7th in Open. And the Radial Open Women's world champ comes up for our regattas. I don't know how that level of competition compares to D15, but it's not exactly chockers of bad sailors here.

    Yet heavy sailors are among the fastest.........

    Here's a positive contribution - why not accept that being heavy is not such a problem? That way you don't even have to go on a diet!

    I'm giving about 15lb away to my competitors, who include a 3 time world Apprentice/Masters champ and one or two 2004 Olympians. There's very little difference between us according to last regatta (my first one for years) even in light winds BUT the heavy sailor has a distinct advantqage upwind in a breeze.

    "The cause may be the other sailor is just a lot better at the game. ( So as you sit there with no weapons to keep up you are left behind by a LOT because you are just a little less effective. Rule 42 is sold as effective because it supposedly keeps the coordinated and trained sailors from abusing the rest of the sailors and keeps the fleet together."

    If the other sailor is better at pumping and pumping is unrestricted, they get a CONTINUAL advantage for the entire time pumping is allowed.

    Maybe the closed mind is on the other side? Schiedt says it's a bad idea, Mendelblatt implied it was a bad idea, Blackburn says it's a bad idea, world youth champ Austin says it's a bad idea, experienced with the dwindling Mistral fleet says it's a bad idea.

    Perhapos the closed mind is to be found in those who are so set on something the world champ etc says is the wrong way to go?


    "OK SO suppose we had a rule that, when others are planing, allowed the klutzes and fatsos to pump until their arms fell off or until they were also planing."

    Then the other sailors, the fit ones, will plane earlier and faster and longer. It's not just a case of planing or not planing, it's a case of planing or planing much faster if you pump much harder.

    "the current rule is an abomination as well.

    I am proposing at least one idea which might fix the abomination. What is your suggestion for improving or correcting the current unfair situation?"

    Stop blaming your weight. When 85kg sailors can win Apprentice worlds repeatedly and repeatedly take light-air championships in one of the world's hottest districts (ie about 50% of the current world championships are held by those who sail in these regattas) where is the proof that weight is the problem?
     
  5. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Sadly, I'm not experienced enough at racing to know if I think there's a problem with rule 42.

    I do know that if I were in contest with a second, easier set of rules for me, I wouldn't feel like I had really won, if I "won." Perhaps in practice or just for fun races, this handicap idea would work to hearten the slower sailors and keep them in the game. But for the real deal trophy at the end of the day, it's got to be the same set of rules for all the sailors for me to stay with it.

    Merrily
     
  6. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I'm not convinced by Fred alone. I really would like to read more from folks who are open to altering 42 for the Laser class. Post em if ya got em!
     
  7. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    Response to HECS post:
    Please READ what I have written. Your responses don't even make sense.
    Sheidt has never commented about a rule allowing "those who are not planing when others are planing to be allowed extra trys with the pumps until they also are planing."
    You wrote as though you have no idea what I am proposing.
    Please take the time to actually read what I have proposed so we can have a discussion.
    My proposal would probably have zero effect on a world championship level competition.
    My proposal is about allowing folks who are not so great at making their boats catch a wave having another chance or two or three or four.
    My proposal is about letting those who failed on the first try and are already losing ground to try again and at least sort of keep up.
    NOBODY at the front would be impacted in any manner as the sailors at the front give a quick yank on the sheet and fly off on a wave.
    Note: Once a sailor is planing he cannot pump anymore until he is on another wave and NOT planing.
    The only extra hours anyone would have to spend in a gym would be by the guys who are sick of pumping like weenies and having to pump ten trys to accomplish what the good sailors accomplish in one pump.

    Last: I won another regatta this weekend. I had my usual distinct advantage over the other big guys as I have a manual labor job and when I pump to get on a wave I usually catch the wave. The professional desk jockey guys who lost ground on every reach missed some of the same waves I caught and after that we were no longer racing with each other.
    I as a big strong guy would like to give the other sailors a chance to stay in the race with guys like me by allowing them to pump until they are also planing.
    You see, I like racing sailboats. When I am way ahead of my friends I am just going around a bunch of bouys by myself. That is not much fun.

    I am proposing a solution to a rule which I firmly believe is not well thought out and which, I believe, makes it harder to have sailboat racing...as opposed to parades around the buoys.

    My questions at this point would be:

    1. Assuming you just caught that monster wave and took off down the face, why not let the sailors behind you pump until they are also enjoying the ride?
    2. Assuming the sailors next to you all pumped once and took off and you just yanked for all you were worth and failed to catch the wave, would the contest be more fun for all if you got to yank a few extra times until you were at least chasing along somewhat effectively?
     
  8. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    If you were in a race where it was agreed that the better sailors were assigned a handicap as is sometimes done, then I could see that instead of a time handicap, extra pumping would be more fun for the slower sailors. I guess, my pride gets in the way though. I just don't like the sound of to "let" slower sailors do anything different, when I just want to kick your @#$%!! in a race. Where's the incentive for us desk jockeys to get better? A patronizing rule might just drive us away.

    Merrily
     
  9. 310

    310 New Member

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    I don't favor any change.


    A minor point, but...
    One pump is also allowed if surfing is possible. where I sail, surfing conditions are much more common than planing conditions.

    now, on to your suggestion.

    You cite three factors; strength, skill, and weight.

    Strength: I don't find strength to be a huge factor - and I'm not very strong. Maybe that's because I'm mostly doing my pump to surf a wave in surfing, but non-planing, conditions. Anyway, it's not clear to me that lots of little pumps will help you get on a wave, or get on a plane. You really only get one chance with a wave, once you miss it, it's gone. I'm not saying that lots of little pumps won't be faster around the course than one pump per gust/wave (it will be faster), just that it might not help surf or plane. Finally, the rules aren't intended to equalize differences in strength.

    Skill: The rules aren't intended to equalize differences in skill. Those who can't pump well, can learn.

    Weight: Weight is clearly a factor. But, are you also proposing a rule change to help lightweights go upwind when it's windy? is it "unfair" that heavyweights are faster upwind in a breeze? I propose that when umpires notice that heavyweights are passing lightweights upwind, they raise a flag. When this flag is raised, heavyweights are not permitted to hike. this will end the abomination of the staus quo.
     
  10. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    310 wrote>>>> I propose that when umpires notice that heavyweights are passing lightweights upwind, they raise a flag. When this flag is raised, heavyweights are not permitted to hike. this will end the abomination of the staus quo.

    At least you are thinking of new thoughts. I like that. My opinion on that matter is that lightweights gain downwind and heavyweights gain up wind. The gains upwind are rather small and the gains downwind are huge...But the typical course has more upwind work than downwind work and the heavyweights tend to come out ahead. Certianly really tall sailors have an advantage all the time except when trying to get under the boom>>>a subject which really gets to the round guys like me...But I am not proposing a no tight vang rule so I can get under my boom.

    I agree that the rules are not currently constructed to make the competitive game more accessible to less accomplished sailors. The fact that Lasers basically all go about the same speed is the best weapon for equalization. I am not suggesting handicapping the hotshots. I am merely suggesting thoughts which might keep the rest of the sailors in the game longer and therefore give the rest of the sailors more fun.

    But most of all...I love the fact that someone else is thinking outside the box ...even if only sarcastically. Improvement is always a good thing and it comes from thinking about how we might improve.

    thanks!!
     
  11. fishingmickey

    fishingmickey Member

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    Hi all,
    Here are some thoughts of mine... Pumping helps get that burst of speed needed to catch that wave to surf or to get the boat up on a plane. Knowledge of sail trim, boat trim and boat handling makes planing or surfing much easier then if your slightly out of trim. I am a heavy weight at 6'1" 230 lb's and I have been sailing Lasers for a little over two years now.
    Whether I am first (once to the weather mark so far) or last, when my Laser gets up on a plane or surfs going downwind... I am in hawg heaven and think I can catch up with anyone. I plan on trying my boat out in the open Gulf of Mexico and catching some really decent waves to surf... There is no organized open ocean sailing or Laser ocean racing going on here in Texas. But I am pretty much a Laser nut... I will sail my boatwith anyone at the drop of a hat and wish I had another laser sailor close by to train with and work on boat skills with. But unfortunately there isn't any close by so I do alot of solo sailing.
    I love to compete and be competative... There is still so much for me to learn... Reading wind conditions, being able to tell if that shift coming across the lake is a righty or lefty is still a mystery to me. When it gets to me I can tell if I am being lifted or headed. I still get hammered on determining shifts and invaribly get caught on the wrong side of the course:confused: .
    I know that time in the boat and continuing to try and get stronger physically will help my Laser sailng tremendously.
    HECS... it is great that you have so many of the worlds top sailors living in your country and there are so many Laser events that you can race every weekend. Having the opportunity to race with them must be great! I only wish we could get the same interest going in Laser sailing here in the USA that you have down under. But don't say that the D15 fleet isn't competative because it is. The district champion this year has his name in Dick Tillman's book several times and I know at least once is for Master's World Champion and several times for masters world top five, there are several sailors in the district that on any given day can beat him.
    This is what Gouvernail is trying to do is increase interest in Lasering... more boats on the line, more people having fun, getting more younger and older Laser sailors interested because they see what a good time everyone is having and want to play the game too!
    Adios for now,
    Fishingmickey
    150087/181157
     
  12. 310

    310 New Member

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    I understand. I agree his motive is good. But what I am trying to point out, is that the proposal is not weight-neutral. It shifts the current situation to one more favorable for heavyweights, at the expense of lightweights.

    Can he come up with a weight-neutral change to rule 42?

    Otherwise, you may loose some of the current sailors.

    As I said, I weigh 160lbs. I know that on breezy days I'm going to have a tough time, heavier guys will have a relative advantage. But, I also know that on moderate days, I'll have an advantage. I see this proposal as weakening my relative advantage on the moderate days.
     
  13. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    310 wrote>>> I see this proposal as weakening my relative advantage on the moderate days.


    You are correct. Allowing bigger folks to pump exttra when smaller sailors can plane with only one pump or zero pumps does screw the folks who are small enough to simply plane on the strength of the wind.

    Certainly the smaller the sailor, the less breeze it will take to make that sailor's boat plane.
    I have no pure and innocent defense which says smaller sailors , expecially those under about 165 would not lose some ability to compete in Lasers if such a rule were instituted.

    Having said that: The Smaller sailors have the radial. The Laser class operates under the assumption that smaller sailors cannot compete on full rig Lasers and for that reason the Radial fleet exists. In fact the radial fleet is close to accepting a new softer top section with a huge part of the sales pitch being that smaller sailors will have a better chance with that section.
    So...the Laser division if the Laser game is targeting those who are over radial size. I believe the ideal weight for lasers is only about ten pounds ( 5 kilos) more than the radial ideal weight. With that as my foundation or set of parameters or however I should put it, I see the problem with the Laser boat, under the current rules, as being suited for only those who weigh very close to 175 lbs.
    Allowing more pumps for the people who are larger than 175 lbs ( or anybody whpo misses the wave on the first try) would, in my opoinion, expand the competitive weight range for the Laser.

    I suppose you describe my position as:
    We already made up a boat for the little guys and it is working. Now we should do something to fix the game for the big guys as well.

    How's that?
     
  14. 310

    310 New Member

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    I have no interest in the radial. I would quit sailing Lasers before I would sail a radial.

    The competitive weight range for the laser is quite large now. Everyone can't be competitive on every day, but everyone gets their day.

    You want to make fewer days for lightweights, and more days for heavyweights.

    why...? It isn't broken, so don't "fix" it.

    Do you think you will get more than one new heavyweight for each light weight you lose?
     
  15. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    310 wrote>>> I have no interest in the radial. I would quit sailing Lasers before I would sail a radial.



    Wow! That sure isn't much of a sales pitch for the radial. Personally I see the Laser as a sports car. The radial with a 6 banger and the 4.7 with a four cylinder....But there sure are a lot of fans of each of the rigs who trash me for suggesting that position as OK.

    My real hunch, nobody has ever tried my rule in a series much less a race, is that the finish positions would not be impacted whatsoever. The only difference would be the sailors who usually catch fewer big surfing or planing rides might catch an occasional extra fun ride. Fun is good...says me.

    Mostly? I think the very best sailors are also the very best at using subtle kinetics. One guy does not go a lot faster than another without some physical explanation. I really think the kinetics rules give a huge advantage to those who are coordinated enough to use lots of physical effort without breaking the "rule of geting caught"

    So the clumsier a sailor is, the more legally he must sail to avoid detection....That I don't like and that makes me want to change the rules somehow.
     
  16. HECS

    HECS New Member

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    Gouvernail, I did miss part of your point and for that I apologise. I wrote my post when I was a bit narked at the implication that those who do not agree to you have closed minds, and that made me careless.

    I still see problems. For one, the planing threshold (assuming equal skills, fitness relative to weight etc) for light sailors will still stay lower than for heavy sailors. A light sailor will be able to pump onto a plane earlier than a heavy sailor, all else being equal. Concievably a light sailor allowed 3 pumps could surf repeatedly down a leg where an equally good heavy sailor can't get planing once.

    Secondly, when you allow repeated pumps you surely give the strong sailors an even greater advantage over desk jockeys of equal weight and skill.
    OK, you are strong. Therefore you can do 3 massive pumps. Maybe each delivers an extra 20lb of force. You get planing. Or, being fit, you do another pump, and another, and another, until you DO get planing.

    Your less fit desk jockey mates do 1 pump at their maximum 15lb....second pump (they are not as strong as you, remember) is 10lb....3rd is 5lb....from them on, Mr Desk Jockey is exhausted while Mr Gym Jockey keeps doing 3,4,5,6,7,78,pumps per wave down the whole leg, and planes and surfs away - repeatedly pumping onto the plane, dropping off the plane, pumping back onto the plane.

    The more pumping you allow, the more pumping fitness is required.

    I was not attacking D15's standard (as I said I did not know it so therefore how could I attack it?) I was merely pointing out that here, in a very strong area, 190lb sailors can win overall against Olympians. Therefore it cannot possibly be correct to say that heavy sailors cannot win.

    This seems to be a point you haven't answered. You say that the Laser "under the current rules (is) suited for only those who weigh very close to 175 lbs." but there are 190lb sailors who win worlds. Therefore you must be incorrect and one of the most important and basic of your underlying assumptions is wrong. So how correct is the rest of your case?
     
  17. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    HECS Wrote>>> "there are 190lb sailors who win worlds. Therefore you must be incorrect and one of the most important and basic of your underlying assumptions is wrong. So how correct is the rest of your case?"

    Scheidt is not 190 is he?

    My case is pretty simple. I think it would be a great idea to test various different renditions of the kinetics rules. One suggestion of mine is "When some are planing, the committee could fly a flag that allows others to pump until the others are also planing."

    My case is correct in that I would like to try some things.

    I believe the following statement is true:

    The current kinetics rules are neither written by any diety nor perfect.

    I suppose there would be circumstances when my suggested flag would not be a very appropriate flag to fly because my rule would not be one by which we should be playing.
    I also believe there are many times when a flag and rule such as the one I suggest would be great for the game.
    I suppose there would be a learning curve for committees and the rule would be more fairly implemented as we all learn more about the result it causes.

    The rule and concept might even be a total disaster in 100% of the situations where it is tried.

    As I have written elsewhere, I remind all the gentle readers of this thread that the effect of weight on finishes can be minimized by course type and length as well as by messing with the kinetics rules. I believe many new concepts must be developed, rules developed and management systems learned which can and should remove the detrimental effect of size difference.

    Anecdotal descriptions of individuals who perform well despite their incorrect size do nothing to change the obvious effects of sailor size on Laser performance. All those exceptional sailors would sail even faster if they were the ideal size.

    HECS ability to describe worst case scenarios cannot be denied. No one, not even me has attempted to counter with any sort of best case scenario. I prefer to live in the world of reality where neither the worst case nor the best case occurs often or flourishes.

    Just for example:
    1. If we have races which begin at a set time with a set starting line, the sailors who are adept at ascertaining the best end of the line and timing their arrival at that place will drive all the others from that end and destroy any chance of competition for any other sailor.


    I am correct. Not necessarily correct that this particular proposal will help the game in any way at all.

    I am correct that I want to try out a few different rules such as the one I have proposed.

    I am absolutely amazed that rational people can be dead set against trying anything other than the status quo.

    I suppose there is a case for and a best and worst case scenario related to cotton sails, wood hulls, the 10 - 5 - go system with 30 second flag drops, mast abeam, dropping out when a mark is touched, 3/4 point for first place, and sailing in a breeze without hiking pants.

    The game and the rules which define it need to be constantly considered and good people need to contribute their best suggestions about possible corrections, additions, and subtractions...says me.

    Some believe we have found the perfect rendition of rule 42. I don't agree with that evaluation.
     
  18. HECS

    HECS New Member

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    I don't know whether Schiedt is 190lb. There are about 10 world titles available in Lasers.

    You CAN win a big-rig worlds (Apprentices) at 190lb. Ergo, weight is not the problem you make it out to be.

    If you can win a masters/apprentice worlds at 190lb

    Secondly, according to the guy who has been 2nd in big rig Open worlds and 1st in big rig Radial worlds, the weight difference between the two is much more than you claim.

    Rational people are not against trying changes to the status quo when the possible benefit is worth the probable downside of the trial.

    Rational people ARE often against trying changes that probably have little possible benefit, when the trials will (A) provide little evidence of how things may develop in years to come and (B) provide the change to damage other people's equipment and winning chances for little benefit.

    It is wrong to put all those who oppose your views in the basket of those who want wooden masts back, when some of them have much more experience in the sort of thing you are proposing than you have, and are also currently involved in introducing new ideas into other classes.

    In final summary;

    1 - Not all those against your proposal have closed minds, and this can be demonstrated.

    2- A few trials does not provide information on long-term effects; therefore trials will not answer the question you pose.

    3- The unfit will be able to pump less than the fit and therefore the gap will open the more pumping you allow. The fit will be able to pump repeatedly every wave whereas the unfit will tire and be left further behind.

    4- Weight is not such a problem as you think. If you are a 190lb apprentice, you COULD be world champ at your current weight if you sailed as well as the world champ does. If you are not world champ, why blame your weight when the world champ is your weight?

    5- You said you would like to live somewhere where Lasers are as competitive and popular as they are here. They are competitive and popular here because we don't blame the rules, we train together, coach the less experienced, and swap information. You can do that without changing rules and it works.
     
  19. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Acting as referee here--I believe the Gouv is proposing that once the best get on plane, "a flag is thrown" and the rest can have unlimited pumps. I take that to mean that the best only get their one initial pump--Rule 42 is still in effect for them, but not for the "Klutz's and Fatsos. "

    Merrily
     
  20. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    HECS wrote>>> " ...when some of them have much more experience in the sort of thing you are proposing than you have"


    Dearest fellow sailor...I have been racing sailboats since 1958. I own trophies from winning North American Championships, US Championships and have the misfortune to own and store for eternity a few hundred trophies from various relatively meaningless sailboat races. My best estimate says I have crossed the finish line first over 1200 times in my sailing career.
    I have been personally involved in the creation of over a quarter million fiberglass boats of which a few thousand were sailboats. Since 1982 I have been repairing various sailboats and have gathered a reasonably good understanding of when and why small sailboats have failures.

    For the last twenty two years I have hosted the largest annual one design event held within 2000 kilometers of my home.

    I may lack the talent and perception of some of the best sailors but I certainly am not lacking in experience.

    Included in my experience is an understanding that for some creatures change is frightening. I am not suggesting we force change upon anyone.

    I am suggesting we try new rules and games in general and never stop seeking better ways to have fun.

    I need approval from no one but the informed and willing participants to set up races to test my proposals. No one needs to feel threatened or pressure to participate. Some will help enthusiastically and many of us may learn from our efforts.

    I am convinced the result of the testing will at the very least be some fun sailing. All sailing is more fun than not sailing.

    If the participants enjoy the experience our tests create, we shall certainly be telling others. If the experiment produces an unwanted result, we will at least learn what does not work and perhaps even why. We shall report what we learn regardless.

    I suspect the comments from 360 will be the most accurate predictions. The big sailors will probably keep up a little better in marginal planing conditions. As I said before, I don't think the finishing order will be changed much. I believe the effect will merely be to allow klutzes and big guys to enjoy a few extra fun rides.

    Thanks so far for all the positive and helpful input. I even have found helpful suggestions buried in the posts from those who think my concept is absurd.

    The forum is working even when the posts are a tad emotional.

    Thanks!

    Don't stop! How else would any of you modify the rules and how would your proposal increase the fun? At least according to your best guess......
     

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