Is it really a one design class?

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by captainJack987, Feb 29, 2008.

  1. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    OK. Educate me of a singlehanded class that, (in your opinion) has a more strict/better/pure one design rule.
     
  2. Der_Dude

    Der_Dude Member

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    ... and a class, that will get you get in there racing for roughly 3-4.000 bucks /2-3.000 Euros (even though it could be done for half of that).
     
  3. OliLaser

    OliLaser Guest

    captianjack987 u r right about the not a one design heres more reasons

    1st-coachs are allowed at regattas to coach sailors at regattas on the water
    2nd-same as 1st
    3rd-same as 1st
    4th-Price differential between parts ex. wood tiller $40 - carbon tiller $ 240
    hyde sail $600- North $500
    5th-same as 1st
    6th-new rigging is alot easier to use than old rigging
    7th-hiking pants (up tp $500) makes hiking at least 2 times easier

    and a class that can get you sailing for 3-4000$ dollars
    - optis are a much better one design boat even tho u can buy from lots of sailmakers I do not mean better as in a better boat, but the rules are better.

    also if the class has so many different peces of equipment available at high costs(excluding people with a budget) why does it matter if
    a) your sail #s are 49mm apart
    b)you rig your outhaul with a 400:1 purchase
    c)your contol lines are attached to a bungie line stoping them from going in the water?
     
  4. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    I'm just trying to state my opinion not start a war, cool off:confused:
     
  5. TonyB

    TonyB Member

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    Yes, the Laser is really a one design class. In fact, it is the benchmark by which all other one design classes measure themselves.

    Of course there are small differences between boats - there has to be gradual improvements over time to maintain the appeal of the class, to improve durability and cost, etc. Would you prefer the alternative? That we all sail Lasers with the original 1970 spec? With wooden grab rails that need varnishing a couple of times a year, and two rivets in the top section collar so you are too scared to pull the vang on, and an outhaul that you can barely adjust? Change has to happen. Thankfully we have a class association that understands this, while staying committed to the one design principle. You can be sure that any change only happens after years of careful consideration of the possible impacts of the change. And it's not like the changes are forced on the class membership - at the end of the day it's us, the sailors, that decide.

    The biggest thing that has made Lasers go faster since they were first designed is improvements in technique, so ultimately, time on the water is what will make you a faster sailor. Having all the upgrades is nice, but they won't make a noticeable difference to your speed.
     
  6. OliLaser

    OliLaser Guest

    Having all the upgrades is nice, but they won't make a noticeable difference to your speed.

    I beg to differ,
    take this scerario
    the conditions are 16-22Kts of wind
    Both sailors of equal skill
    sailor A-has a brand new boat, new sail, carbon tiller, new controls etc, and hiking pants
    sailor B- has a new boat, new sail, carbon tiller, old controls and no hiking pants

    Both sailors have equal hulls and sails, however one has to lean in and out to adjust the cunningham and outhaul (both are important for keeping the power up in the lulls) yes sailorB could probably pull it off but it would be more work.
    Also sailor A has hiking pants on and can hike longer b/c of them than sailorB
    I think that equipment can make a noticeable change in your speed (funny how all grandprix racing boats have all the best gear, what about the TP52s .8 of a knot in one year all of which was a result of better equipment (and hulls tho)

    by the way I think the rules are too tight and much more fluxuation in the rules should be allowed but all the people saying just sail your boat it makes yo go faster and better equipment has nothing to do with it are weeners
     
  7. OliLaser

    OliLaser Guest

    and are wrong
     
  8. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Go check out eBay auction 190202918140, what appears to be a classic 1973 Laser (lacking wooden daggerboard and rudder). For only $35 (current bid), you can judge for yourself if its the skipper or the boat.
     
  9. TonyB

    TonyB Member

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    and...

    The operative word is "noticeable". Of course some upgrades allow slight improvements in speed. No one is saying they won't. At the front of a good fleet, between sailors of comparable ability, it might even make the difference between first and second place in an occasional race. But a good sailor with old gear will always beat a poor sailor with new gear. Yes, always. At most, all the good gear will give a 1% gain. A lesser sailor will throw away that gain a dozen times in a race, by capsizing, missing shifts, heeling upwind, starting in the second or third row, and so on. That's the point the "weeners" are making. Learn to sail well, and worry about the gear when it is the biggest thing slowing you down.

    By the way, just to be pedantic, I don't think hiking pants count as an upgrade to the boat. Especially as they are not mentioned in the class rules.

    And thanks, I don't think I have ever been called a "weener" before. That made me laugh. [​IMG]
     
  10. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    this is pathetic

    Honestly, it's the sailor that makes the results, not that boat
     
  11. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    Thank you I understand change needs to happen, but this whole new sail proposal is what go me to start this thread.
     
  12. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    the sail is going the same way of the new upgrades, evolution must happen to stay alive and current
     
  13. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Brmmm Brmmm

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    Having the upgraded vang and outhaul system will add to your speed downwind and as you round the leeward mark.
     
  14. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    when I changed over, I saw no difference in the vang, and maybe, maybe a small difference in the outhaul, but not enough to win a race, ever
     
  15. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    I am all for the new control systems, I'll probably buy them one of these days but I do not want the sail to change. The materials fine, but the sail shape I do not want it to change.
     
  16. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    If you don't want it to change, then vote against it, and don't buy one, its as simple as that. No one is forcing you. If you race at the national or Olympic level, you will be hindered, but at least you will be adhering to your own ideals and ethics, and thats all that matter. And if you race at the club level, I'm sure there are people that wish to do the same as you.

    In fact, no body even said a new sail is definite yet.These are all examples of things that people have done for their own fun, no reason for you to get all worked up.
     
  17. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    I'm not trying to make a fuss this thread is for everyone to state what they think about the laser's one classness Ross you and everyone can say whatever you whant about what you think one design is or means that is what this thread is about, I'm not getting worked up I'm just stating my opinion.:rolleyes:
     
  18. TonyB

    TonyB Member

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    I'm guessing that the first test that any new sail design will have to pass is that it offers as close as possible to the same performance as a new sail of the current design - I doubt that the class will ever introduce a change that gives a significant advantage to one group of sailors over another. What that means is same sail shape with possibly a different cloth and/or a different panel layout, and other features that improve durability.

    The second test would be that its performance after 12 months use is better than the performance of a 12 month old sail of the current design. There is no point in changing the sail if it doesn't pass this test. I would think that there would also be cost restrictions factored in.

    Increased cost aside, I don't see any reason why people wouldn't want to vote for such a sail, as no one would be disadvantaged by its introduction.
     
  19. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    Everyone in the laser class has the same choice to pay the same price for the same parts that make you go the same speed. Whether you are using the old rigging or the new rigging the boat has the same sail area and weighs the same. All the parts are required to be provided by a laser dealer. I don't really see a valid argument for this not being a one design. You could say that a older boat may not be as fast as a newer boat. If the older boat was originally taken care of chances are its better then the new boat. People can complain all they want about the laser not being a one design, well I say if the laser is not a one design there is no such thing as a one design.
     
  20. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    Does anyone use replica parts for practice, or all class legal parts?
     

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