Is it really a one design class?

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by captainJack987, Feb 29, 2008.

  1. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    The laser class says its one design but is it really? I mean with all the upgrades and expensive parts I dont think it can trully be classifide as a one design class anymore. I have a 1982 Laser and a limited budget, I dont want to have to buy new expensive parts to keep up with everyone else. Especially this new class sail proposal, if the standard class sail is worked well for so many years why isn't it working now? I keep my Laser as simple as I can, it takes me less than three minutes to rig it and put it in the water. With these new systems it may take upwards of 30 minutes to fully rig the boat. All the new improvments are great and all but it wont really make the laser a one design boat anymore. I think the class should keep the laser bare bones and make it the sailors sailing the boat not the technology. I personly think the class should be stricter than it is now!:eek:
     
  2. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    CJ, this is legitimate question, but it belongs in politics, so I've moved it there.
     
  3. Ross B

    Ross B Guest


    here's the secret, it never has!
     
  4. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    And the answer is: sail your boat!

    You're happy with the way your boat is rigged, great! sail the thing.

    You're happy with the performance of your sail, great! sail it! The difference between a 20 year old sail and a new one of exactly the same cut and shape, will be FAR greater than the difference between a new sail with whatever durability improvements are contemplated, vs. a new sail of the current design.

    So if you don't need a new sail now, you won't need a new sail after any contemplated improvements are introduces a year or two down the line.

    Sailing ability is *so* underrated. Top sailors can hop into a YC junior program old soft beat-up boat with a 30 year old sail and school the fleet. You don't need that stuff.

    I can afford the new gear, so I bought it. I use it to keep my head in the game. I've been sailing a keelboat for years and expect to be able to get a certain "shape." My brain expects that shape. If I can't get it, I'm distracted and not focused on sailing the course, I'm staring at the sail my brain says is ugly, and therefore slow.

    My buddy, not conditioned by years of working the main controls and staring at the thing, sets his old fashioned vang, cunningham, and outhaul at the dock for the conditions of the day. Then he goes out on the course and schools my sorry **s in half the races we do.

    Go out on the course. Sail. Race. Get faster. Win. Don't get distracted by that other stuff.
     
  5. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    None of the improvements made to the boat have had a any correlation with speed. They have either made it more durable or easier to adjust. The new sail is designed with the intention of making it last longer. The intention is not to make it faster then the old sail.
     
  6. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    What new class sail proposal is this ? I had not seen that the class were doing anything. There was a rumour based on a photo of a Laser with a different sail (in fact a couple, each based on different photos/sails (or different boats !!). Have the class announced they are investigating alternative/new/different sail manufacturers/designs/whatever ?

    When I got my Laser a year ago I was concerned about the increased rigging time with the new gear (more complex, etc.). I went for it anyway and it is really quick to rig (basically you do not entirely de-rig it and I think it takes me no longer than the old system (which I used many years ago).

     
  7. Mike M

    Mike M New Member

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    I think its important we keep considering ways to keep the laser up to date within the spirit of the one design rules. Provided the changes are not huge (e.g. 20% increase in sail size) it should still allow people with older equipment to compete with those with the newest equipment. Case in point:

    First day of Florida masters a few weeks ago in Palm Beach – Joe Van Rossem, I think, led the fleet of 50+ after the first day of sailing in 6-8knots of breeze. Sail number 41411 with wooden blades. Scores 4, 4 with a total of 8 points

    I was sailing 185888 with a brand new sail AND Aussie new style blades – score 7, 5 for a total of 12 points

    I expect if you were to test my boat against 41411 my boat would be faster thru the water (lets say 2%???) The great thing about sailing is there are so many things to get right that this difference is tiny compared to getting the shifts, tide and technique right. In the example above Joe probably sailed 10% better than me thus easily overcoming the new gear advantage.

    Now its not always going to be possible to beat somebody who has better gear. If you sail at around the same skill level and in steady wind, say around 10 to 15 knots, new gear (particularly new sails) will beat old gear. However this is where you can already make a big difference. The people who have the budget to buy, say, three new sails a year will beat those who are using a 21 year old sail every time (assuming same skill level)

    So lets not hold back considering small changes to the laser on the basis that it will make some people less competitive – if we really want to create a level playing field then lets restrict number of new sails a year, number of days allowed to train in the gym, number of training days allowed on the water, number of regattas allowed to enter a year, number of personal coaching sessions allowed etc. as these are the things which really make a significant difference
     
  8. Mike M

    Mike M New Member

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    I think its important we keep considering ways to keep the laser up to date within the spirit of the one design rules. Provided the changes are not huge (e.g. 20% increase in sail size) it should still allow people with older equipment to compete with those with the newest equipment. Case in point:

    First day of Florida masters a few weeks ago in Palm Beach – Joe Van Rossem, I think, led the fleet of 50+ after the first day of sailing in 6-8knots of breeze. Sail number 41411 with wooden blades. Scores 4, 4 with a total of 8 points

    I was sailing 185888 with a brand new sail AND Aussie new style blades – score 7, 5 for a total of 12 points

    I expect if you were to test my boat against 41411 my boat would be faster thru the water (lets say 2%???) The great thing about sailing is there are so many things to get right that this difference is tiny compared to getting the shifts, tide and technique right. In the example above Joe probably sailed 10% better than me thus easily overcoming the new gear advantage.

    Now its not always going to be possible to beat somebody who has better gear. If you sail at around the same skill level and in steady wind, say around 10 to 15 knots, new gear (particularly new sails) will beat old gear. However this is where you can already make a big difference. The people who have the budget to buy, say, three new sails a year will beat those who are using a 21 year old sail every time (assuming same skill level)

    So lets not hold back considering small changes to the laser on the basis that it will make some people less competitive – if we really want to create a level playing field then lets restrict number of new sails a year, number of days allowed to train in the gym, number of training days allowed on the water, number of regattas allowed to enter a year, number of personal coaching sessions allowed etc. as these are the things which really make a significant difference
     
  9. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    I am not 100% your opinion. I had a hull of 1978. Now I have a hull of 2001. Both are built by PSE. The hull of 2001 is so much "low level"- quality, that I'm not able decide to where I may beginn first to yell about. But, the old hull has been more stiff in 2006, compared to the new one, but nevertheless: the old was slower, than that dam fast 2001 hull.
    But, I bet, the old 1978 PSE Laser still sails happily in far future, during in the same far future, the 2001 hull already met a chainsaw, in reason of her smooth walls and already would be f.e. a small frogpool in our garden....
    Let "them" design a new what ever they want to redesign. Finally, it is one's own decision what one sails. ...-> See: Robert Scheidt decided in 2004 to race his final event at the Laser with his old, but also class legal, Holt-"Classic Style"-Vang (for very resonable aspects). No Silva/Nexus, no C-vane-pappalap-Laser-gizmo-xyz. He won that event. That's it, that's "the 'big' secret" behind the game, we all try to play by sailing the Laser, only: try to be the fastest ... finally... .

    So, feel free to sail Laser "Classic" and race successful if you are a perfect seaman, good winds.

    Ciao LooserLu

    P.S.:
    BTW: Robert Scheidt got a sort of simple garland, made out of fresh olive drab, for his head, for that he won that "event", I mentioned above...
    Which races?? "Oh, nothing special", I guess he would say with his special way of understatements, "....just only that of Athens at August 2004..."
     
  10. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    See that is my point if a 2001 hull is faster than an older hull there is still a difference making it not a true one design class!!
     
  11. Ross B

    Ross B Guest

    it's called aging, things get old and break down and go soft. Nothing ever stays in perfect condition.
     
  12. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    BJ MOOSE SAID IT ALL!! What a fabulous answer!!! Polite and absolutely tells the story.

    The only thing I have to ad?? I have the new rigging and my current time record from standing next to teh boat with its cover on to sitting in the launched boat is 4 minutes and a few seconds. That includes fastening a wind indicator and water bottle in place. I know I will soon be able to rig in under four minutes.

    Please!! re -read BJ's fabulous answer to the question...

     
  13. dougreynolds10

    dougreynolds10 Member

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    Thats true with any class, true one design or not. Newer equipment tends to be better then most old equipment. That doesn't change the fact that most Olympic level sailors on a old boat will most likely still beat most novices on a new pretty shinny boat.
     
  14. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Gouv, perhaps there are Laserites, like you, that are so quick like you. But also, I know a lot of people, that like to sail Laser, that are not as quick like you and have really problems to set up the Laser quick, that has the new XD lines etc. Those Laserites need much more time and lose the fun, to use this new sailing gear. It is fact, that many common Laserites sail or race better, in reason they use the XD stuff. We better look to that Laserites, and not the few 1000, around the world, that semi-professional or professional race the Laser. Several of those experienced Laserites perhaps not even look at TLF, I'm afraid. But all the others, if not so quick like you, need help to get back the fun. Thats why we are here, f.e. at TLF.

    Once upon a time, Shevy/drLaser here at TLF said: "the Laser now is an experimental sailing class". Ok, he is a hardliner in that aspect. His words had many truth, I think. But, how should we handle it now, today?
    There my thoughts go to the "(International) Moth Sailing Class". I am to young, 45, to really talk about the history of that sailing class. I guess, during the sixties, there the styling of the dinghy changed radically. But, we see sailing those old styling boats and the funny looking new ones. So, I guess (correct me, if I am wrong, please), one have a Moth Class (those old syling dinghies) and an "International Moth class" (newer dinghies with wings and much Mylar/Carbon at the rigg etc.). Who of those cares about that different styles, it is part of the philopsophy of that dinghy-cathegory.

    But the Laser is different, the inventors Kirby/Bruce/Fogh not wanted that at their new dinhgy, I think. But, I guess, all three not expected that success, this new dinghy over the past had. That's a dillema we have now. There is a "Builders Manual", like a sort of bible, that says to the licensed builders, how construct "The Laser".
    But:
    Times change and if the Laser want to "live on" as successful like in the past, for the young and wild sailors (that leave the Optimist dinghy to look, if they sail the nice and crispy 29er or ... , because such boats have a more modern "cool"-design, that more promise "fun" on the water...), the Laser has to be changed in this or that way. Has there to be a change or not, that's the big question??? No one is able, to look deep into the future. So, it is a "tour of mountain ridges" for the builders and the World Council, I guess, to find a decent way to "redesign" the Laser to modern materials and not to lose the Laserites that swear on the old styled Laser "Classic". Both, new XD-dinghies and old "Classic" ones race against each other in our days, and so, it is not a wonder for me, that there is a big discussion under the Laserites "What is the best way and what not". The pro's take all that makes them fast or what they are allowed to use. But all the rest don't have an easy decision, what to take and what not...
    I guess, finally/at least in far future, we get a Laser-dinghy, that has the same shape in the basic design like the Laser "Classic", but the materials are totally different.
    Put together some ideas of The Byte/ The MegaByte (ps2000 Inc.) and the Ideas of the other boats of PSE/LaserPerformance/Vanguard and with some fantasy in our head, "we see" the new Laser, based on the design-ideas of the Laser of 1970, that is written in the Builders Manual.

    Oh, I forgot, the costs are important... most important. The "new" Laser only is successfull, I think, if one is able to buy him., correct? In the moment that goes into the wrong direction.... So, another dilemma we have. No change is made without rising of the prices for the Laser in the moment.
    Those, that do have to decide, what the Laser looks like in future, sure think about that aspect, do they...?? F.e.:Me. I don't go in future and pay 10000 Euro here, for a new Laser "Classic". If she gets such a price, in soon future, then I change to other, cheaper dinghies. Then, I only sail from time to time a rented one or a Laser-clubboat. I guess, there are several Laserites, that do think in the same way...

    But finally, I think: "captainJack987" brought the REAL dilemma it to a very good statement and thanks, you opened this thread for this headline:"Is it really a one design class?" ("What really is class legal, in the way of thinking to "one design"?...)

    My opinion/answer is in Geman: "Jein" (yes AND no): At the World Championships (age under 35), Continental Championships, Olympic games, there the Laser IS a one design sailing class. At all other events not, I think.
    To many "different" hulls and sails and etc.etc. compete against each other. And that is an infraction to the "one-design-thought". Nevertheless, gouv, I agree, "bjmoose" is correct in his words, too.

    But, gouv, regarding to the "one-design-thought", me would interest (and I guess many many more here at TLF): What do the inventors Kirby/Bruce/Fogh say, if one ask them to all that new redesigning (new sail/carbon mast for the radial eventually a better constructed and more durable hull tec.), that probably comes up?
    Gouv, YOU have been one of the REALLY big functionairs at the ILCA-NA in the past, aren't you have been? I would bet, you somwhere/-how have the connections to the inventors of the Laser and you are from Texas. :) "People of Texas are fearless people", is the saying around the globe, correct? Perhaps, you may take your phone and ask the inventors about all that? Would be totally nice to read a resumee of that phonecall about the opinion of the inventors of the Laser, here at TLF (perhaps they are reading her,who knows it...). Would be a great idea, right?

    Ciao
    LooserLu
     
  15. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    CJ. I'm again confused by your concern about "class legal" and/or "OD" matters.

    From what I can tell you do not race and are not a class member. For someone who is a day sailor of this fine boat these issues should be no concern.

    Are you contemplating joining the class and racing? If so, great! Just do it and don't worry so much about how old the boat or sail and rigging is. Just see if you can point the thing in the right direction first and go from there.

    When you get to a point where you feel that "older equipment" is holding you back then budget for the items you want to replace and start doing so. Boats are like cars and the sails are like tires. After 40-60,000 miles you need to replace them.

    If you bought the boat thinking everything will last forever then I've got some land in Florida you'd be interested in.

    My boat is 10 years old. It requires a bit of annual maintenance, but at the masters level it is just as fast as the 2007-2008 year hulls.

    BTW. I like how you keep changing your club location. Do we have a troll here?????????
     
  16. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    Thank you, as you probably no i am a student I do club racing but then you don't have to be a registered icla member. But i plan to join. I am concerned about the strictness of the class because i am young and probably haven't been around sailing as long as most of you but, when i seriously start to race in the class i want there to be some aspect of one design left. I know there will be but the class is not as strict as it used to be. That is why i am concerned.
     
  17. Crooked Beat

    Crooked Beat Member

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    I seem to remember that the new rigging rules past only by the barest of margins. I recall that one vote pushed us to the new rigging. One vote less and the old rigging would still be in use.
     
  18. mackconsult

    mackconsult Member

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    30 minutes? My boat is pretty much new, and rigged as a pro. Only takes me about 10 minutes max to rig. Laser is the best one design I have raced in, and in the past I have been a Melges 24 sailor.
     
  19. captainJack987

    captainJack987 New Member

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    30 minutes was an estimate, I have watched lasers with all the new upgrades and they seem to take a while so thats just how long I thought it would take. I have an older simpler laser and I could rig it with my eyes closed.
     
  20. JasonB

    JasonB New Member

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    I have an older boat and have updated the outhaul/cunnigham to the lastest setup which is great improvment to the old, I still run the older style vang with two extra blocks and find it o.k but a bit hard to release whislt hiking. As far as time to rig goes whats the big deal if the new setup takes 30-45 to setup, if you are racing get there earlier, if sailing for fun whats does it matter.
     

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