Intensity Sails

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by Rob B, Sep 15, 2006.

  1. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Well I broke down and bought one for practice/local club racing. I must say I'm impressed. It is the same size as a class legal sail, perhaps slightly heavier material. However, it came with a full set of battens, numbers and even a clew strap. All for $200.00 even. Quite a discount from the upper $400.00 prices we are seeing today, (not including battens or clew strap- Then you're over $500.00!)

    It's a shame these guys can't be a provider for class legal sails. How much does a sail maker have to pay for the Laser class logo anyway?
     
  2. Josef

    Josef New Member

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    The ILCA should really do something about the laser sail prizes.
    The sails are made from the cheepest kind of fabric and there are no developmentcosts whatsoever.
    A lasersail shouldn't cost more than $200, and then they're still making decent money.
     
  3. Laser76489

    Laser76489 Member

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    The ICLA gets a cut of all of the class legal sails I believe. Your local dealer also gets a cut as does North or Hyde sails.

    I have argued that the Intesity sail should be OK for club racing but many here will disagree.

    If you are to use the sail for racing I would clear it with the managment of your club first just to be legitimate and avoid issues.

    this thread will show what issues can come up.
    http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=4012&highlight=team+intensity
     
  4. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    We have about 20 boats sailing at our club. I'd say about 12 of us are using the Intensity sails, (with the agreement of everyone else). We have not noticed a speed difference in the sails one way or the other.

    Why can't we buy the class sails directly through North? This would eliminate at least one animal from the food chain and make the sails less expensive.
     
  5. Josef

    Josef New Member

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    The design of a lasersail is really simple so anyone can make a copy that will work the same as the normal sails.
    Lasersails should be almost free considering the kind of crapp their made of and how simple it is.
     
  6. Laser76489

    Laser76489 Member

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    I agree to a point but how is your local dealer going to stay in buisness if not supported. I like my Intensty sail but I do struggle with it from an ethics prospective
     
  7. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    My local supplier is selling the Intensity Sails! If I need a new class sail, (which will be a lot longer from now thanks to the inexpensive Int sail) I'll go to him. In the meantime he's still selling boats and stuff too.

    How do regular boat dealers stay in business? All the lead mine sailors and MANY other one design class sailors can deal directly w/the loft.
     
  8. Laser76489

    Laser76489 Member

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    Perhaps Westcoat or The Boathouse could answer that better than anyone.

    Just out of interest Rob what price does your dealer sell the Intesity sail for??
     
  9. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Like I posted at the top $200.00. Even.
     
  10. Laser76489

    Laser76489 Member

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    On the web they sell from intesity for $200 so either your dealer trades $ or is getting discount...good price though

    thanks
     
  11. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    He's part of our fleet and works to grow it. I think he makes a lot of deals at low margin just to get more boats out and grow the fleet.

    I know on the Intensity sails he buys about 10 at a time. They also make radials.
     
  12. pez

    pez Member

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    Something that strikes me as odd is that there is not any sort of market for more extreme laser sails... back in my skydiving days thay were making chutes oput of some sort of zero-porosity fabrics...

    Perhaps a full-length batten mylar sail would kick the pants off the class legal one... perhaps it would also kick the pants off the maststep...
     
  13. Laser76489

    Laser76489 Member

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    You could get a sail made of mylar /kevlar/spectra, any sailmaker would be happy to build one at a cost. I believe the idea with the Intensity sail was to copy the class legal sail and hence allow you to use a practice sail...(the same as the Laser sail) not better or worse. The reason that the class insists on the legal sails is to ensure that the people win and not the equipment
     
  14. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    True. I don't see anyone building a better mousetrap here like the carbon mast section. Just a cheaper one.
     
  15. computeroman2

    computeroman2 Member

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    They're simply selling the sails for retail, not wholesale value so that the dealers don't get undercut and they get more cash.

    Pez- because the rig isn't stayed, a fully-battened sail wouldn't work so well. You couldn't really change the design of the sail that radically (including kevlar or some other material) without changing the rig as well.

    The class association gets a cut and sells licences to ensure that the sails are still made one-design. The sails shouldn't be as expensive as they are though. C420 sails (main+jib) are only $700, and they're almost twice as thick, twice as big, have a steel halyard wire and boltropes in them, and a full-length batten at the top.

    Something doesn't make sense here.
     
  16. IntensitySails

    IntensitySails Member

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    I know that this can be a charged discussion and I do not wish to create that by replying. My only goal is to make saiing a Laser®, Laser® Radial & Laser® 4.7 more affordable. I receive many emails from people asking if our sail will fit the old hull they got from their neighbor's backyard. This builds the class in the long run (in my opinion) Anything to get people out on the water and catch the bug.

    I am an active Laser sailor and use my class sail for Laser Class regattas. I am frugal in my use of that sail due to it's cost.

    For the record I have offered to pay a per sail fee to the ILCA and was turned down. I personally am a member and advertise my deck and hull covers in the class magazine. I do try to support the class.


    I am now actually producing 420 Jibs. I will have them for $225.00 each.
    I will have the Mains next year. For clubs and sailing programs this is a huge expense. I am trying to cut the cost for them while they can still have new equipment.
     
  17. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I used my Intensity sail for the first time this weekend and was very happy with it. Each of the top 5 boats in every race was using an Intensity sail.
     
  18. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, what does this mean? Is the Intensity sail giving those sailors an advantage over the legal sail?
     
  19. GTChris

    GTChris New Member

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    If you say that it isn't fair that I can 'buy' better performance for $200, then why is it fair that YOU can buy better performance for $500? Do you have to be loaded to be able to buy 'fast'? I'm confused. The $200 isn't making me any faster than your $500, so what's the big deal? Plus, I still can't use it at the big events anyways.


    Merrily - Most likely it means that a new Intensity sail will outperform an old class legal sail, since I doubt most people at the club would be using a NEW class legal sail in a casual club race, since they are so expensive. That's all there is to it. Perhaps having a similarlily performing, less expensive alternative helps level the playing field for casual sailors who otherwise would feel like they need spend $500 or more just to be able to sail in the same league as others. I haven't heard anybody here offer any evidence whatsoever that a new intensity sail will outperform a new class legal sail.

    What in the world is wrong with something that helps even the playing field for as many people as possible in casual racing? Isn't that the GOAL of one-design racing? I just ordered an intensity sail, and will use it for local racing and practice. At any bigger events I will use a class legal sail. An OLD class legal sail, since I can't afford a new one. So the intensity sail is not keeping me from supporting the ILCA, I wouldnt be able to afford a new sail anyways. I won't be complaining about how those with new sails point higher than me, so again, why would you complain about something that lets more people be on a level playing field in casual competition???

    Maybe some people are afraid that all the people they can usually beat just by shelling out more money will all of a sudden be able to point just as high as them, and may turn out to be better sailors. I for one was getting discouraged after getting rolled over on every beat with my old legal sail, I thought it was something I was doing wrong. After trying a new practice sail, I found that I was on a level plaing field, and that I wasn't nearly as bad as I thought. My practice partners enjoyed better competition, and I enjoyed more confidence. Where is the harm in this?

    As soon as you show me how an Intensity sail outperforms a legal sail, I will change my opinion, and stop using the sail in any competitive situation. I want the race to be decided by the sailor, not the sail, which is why I think people should be able to use what appears to me to be identically performing equipment in casual racing.

    Chris
     
  20. pez

    pez Member

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    I have no opinion regarding the use of non-legal vs class legal sails... I have no place telling a boat owner what to do with their time, let alone their money...

    However I'm curious what reasons ILCA gave you, if any, for turning you down?
     

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