Intensity Sails/Non-Laser Class Certified Sails

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by ABLaser, Jul 18, 2013.

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Let them be, or protest.

  1. Let Be

    84.6%
  2. Protest

    15.4%
  1. Voodoo 158546

    Voodoo 158546 Hard hiking at the end of a 3hr race, killer

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    Well it's a bit of a moot point then.
    Who would take replicas to sanctioned events and try to sneak by unnoticed ?

    Don't know what the fuss here is about tbh
     
  2. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    People do as implied by the OP. I have seen it myself. Usually local sailors who do not seem to think it applies to them. Luckily there are usually a few class legal sails floating around that people are prepared to loan out so everyone can sail.
     
  3. Voodoo 158546

    Voodoo 158546 Hard hiking at the end of a 3hr race, killer

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    Sorry mate didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

    Regarding clubs policing the issue.
    Talking to a regional measures bod the other day he quoted the 'official' stance that ilca n isaf could hold us to if backed into a corner and made n example of....
    Along the lines of - if found to be using non class legitimate equipment should be reported and could face suspension (racing) up to a period of five years plus.

    Can you imagine !

    Considering the current state of general skint ness - not personally but generally - if every principle at every venue were to enforce such a ruling they surely would find their floating numbers drop significantly. At club level - average Sunday racing.
    People just wouldn't bother or migrate to double handers ( bloody L2k's lol)
     
  4. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    No worries, sounds like we think along the same lines (unlike a local large elitist club near me who are seeing membership fall away significantly whereas we are almost at the point of needing a waiting list).

    Hence why we allow them for club racing ;). I have no objection to paying the full price for a sail where I can see where my money has gone. I sailed a Blaze for a few years, sails for that were around £500 mark which I had no objection to paying as you could see what you were getting for your money (and it would last a long time).
     
  5. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    I generally run 2 sails, but sometimes 3. I have a specific regatta sail which is relatively good condition, and an old regatta sail that has become my club racing / general training sail. Additionally, I sometimes break out an old club racing sail to use when just wanting to go out. I may this year retire the club racing sail and buy a new regatta sail and let the cycle begin again. A lot of people at the clubs I sail at do the same, the only difference is the frequency of change over and that is largely driven by how seriously they are taking there racing i.e. masters heading to the worlds will always buy a new sail, my current regatta sail was my Terrigal Masters Worlds sail (2008), but it's only been doing 2-4 days usage per year since then, I've backed off a lot in recent years in doing regattas, in the old days is was 6 significant regattas (20+ days of racing) what you'd call sanctioned events.

    The topic of sanctioned events is interesting. If a club wants to run a Laser race, it's not sanctioned, but it's a Laser race and the boats are meant to comply with Laser class rules including association membership and legal class sails. If a club wants to run an open class as a regatta or even just scheduled club race, anyone can turn up with anything and compete, no need to worry about legal sails, legal hulls, memberships of association. It's really up to clubs and organises if they want to have a "Laser" class.
     
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  6. oztayls

    oztayls Member

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    What's wrong with allowing other brands to supply class legal sails with the buttons, ie. they pay the royalties same as Hyde and North? (Both current brands cost the same and this has been the case forever, so price fixing would be simple to prove in a court) So, the current arrangement is actually a restriction of trade in that it is a duopoly, and price fixing is in place. In Australia we have laws against this sort of thing and that if it were tested in court, ILCA would lose.
     
  7. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    The problem is that it is not a monopoly/duopoloy as you can always sail a different class of boat.

    If other manufacturers then buy in to the Laser model and get certified/approved their prices are likely to rise significantly as they will need to use to approved models which are supported by the builders (sails must be builder supplied, you cannot buy them direct from North or Hyde).

    Same as the vang assembly, you should buy this from an approved source otherwise technically, it is not class legal.
     
  8. oztayls

    oztayls Member

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    I hear what you say Jeffers, however, class rules don't overide Australian Law.
     
  9. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Ok say you drive a Ford ute and there is a part that only Ford supply are you going to take them to court because you cannot use a Holden part?

    Same thing...the choice is there (and I believe has been tested in other countries where monopoly laws are similar).
     
  10. oztayls

    oztayls Member

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    If I was prevented from registering my ute and being allowed to drive it on national roads because of Ford's "restriction", then maybe. In Aus, Ford would not be allowed to prevent another company from producing that part.
     
  11. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    But the part my be 'Type Approved" (or whatever the certification purpose is in Aus.

    Look at it like that. You can buy a pattern part but it is not type approved for the Laser.

    In theory nothing actually stops you using it but if you attend a class sanctioned event and try to use it you will likely get protested or told you are not allowed to compete using it.

    You could like it to the Moto 2 championship as well. Everyone has to use an approved Honda 600cc engine so you would not turn up with a Yamaha 600cc engine would you....
     
  12. oztayls

    oztayls Member

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    Yes, we all understand that to race in sanctioned events, you have to use class legal parts. But if we step back to the supply of those class legal parts, we find that they supplied by a business, which business is registered in Australia. That business has to comply with the laws of the country in which it operates. OK, we accept we have to use Laser approved parts to race, but the problem is, we are being done over in the supply of those parts. Unlike the Ford ute part analogy where we can choose to use another non-Ford branded part and still drive it legally, the same is not true of Laser parts. It is not true for Laser parts because the Laser business restricts other suppliers from operating in their cartel-like market. We all know who manufactures the bits that the builders themselves don't make. But, even if a supplier wanted to make those parts and supply those parts to the Laser business, royalty paid, they cannot do so because of the cartel arrangement. I think that's essentially what the Laser sailors beef about.

    Choosing to sail the Laser means having to also bow to the cartel, so it's too bad for us. Just because we accept this arrangement, it doesn't mean that it's right. Just that we are prepared to be screwed over.
     
  13. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Not quite accurate, these 'pattern' parts still have to go through an approval process (they certain do in UK and EU) so they get a Type Approval marking which means they are a direct replacement part and have been approved for use with the particular components on the vehicle. This is common for consumable components such as brake linings and disks. There will be parts on that vehicle however than only Ford can supply as they are specific to Ford, this is the same as a Laser sail IMO. The sail is specific to the Laser and the manufacturer and CA have said 'only sails supplied by supplier x are eligable for class sanctioned racing.

    Now we all know what happens in the real world, we go and get our replica sails and got racing locally with them and generally have a good time....

    Exactly, most people who are going to sail at a competitive level in the class know what they are letting themselves in for.

    As for being prepared to be screwed over I would disagree. Were I buying a 'class approved' sail every year for club racing I would feel screwed over but I and many others do not.

    The situation is not going to change, unless you fancy taking on PSA and ILCA in court, I think you may get short shrift though as choice is in the market.

    So say you didn't want to pay Fords prices for ute parts you would buy a Holden ute, same thing but different ;-)

    Time to go sailing?
     
  14. Colinkites2000

    Colinkites2000 Member

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    One idea for the relaxed rule fleets is to score them differently. So you have everyone on the same course, and score the class legals together, intensity's together etc. To make a point, you could post your own version of those results with the "classes" divided up. People will start saying "Well, I was first APS! even though I finished 5th overall." "Or I was second class legal, and I'm a purist, so that's good enough for me to claim second." If you really think someone has an advantage by using a different sail type, you can at least score it this way in your head. You'll know that legally you won, and you'll verify this when you goto a big event where everything must be class legal.

    I have been through stages of being paranoid about people on different sails, foil shapes etc. I decided to do everything stock (my foils had been faired etc. and potentially even had a different shape than stock) just to get to base. Now all I worry about is technique and it is an amazing feeling - I can't be tossed for my boat, I am sailing the boat as it is designed and legal and I never wonder if the sail isn't quite stretching the way a class legal would. I know if I beat the top guy, I have done it myself and not because of a potential advantage of a different sail.

    I know that if someone beat me because of their foils or their sail type, then they really didn't beat me and my true ranking will show when I goto a major measured event. In my experience, most people worrying about the different sails are not at the very top of the fleet. The people at the top know that they can rig any sail and still be there. When it's windy, maybe I'll practice more on my practice sail instead of my class legal to preserve it. I do believe they are meant for practice, not racing, but I don't mind if others actually use them in racing for "small pond" events.

    My current mindset that has really helped let go of caring about different sails etc., has been to focus solely on improvement and sailing well and not on results. If I sail faster than everyone, smarter than everyone and more consistently than everyone, I won't care about what sail cloth they are using because I will be better than them all and the results will show it anyway.

    You could try talking to the members of the fleet informally (not in a protest) and express concerns and open a dialogue if you wanted.

    This happens in our local J/24 fleet too - some people are 100% class legal with measurement certs etc. Others mostly just race literally for the fun of it and aren't tied to the results. Their boat isn't 100% compliant but nobody cares because rinky dink local events don't really matter anyway. Often the people who aren't serious/dedicated enough to be class legal (they don't travel to major events etc.) are not winning anyway. Shit, sometimes a goddam sonar shows up on the line. Even in our local laser fleet, I think if a sunfish or a banshee or a force 5 showed up, no one would care. So, I think it does happen in other classes. It's all about what the goal of the local fleet is, and how seriously they take their lasering. I actually think it's a lot like surfing -you pick the crowd/vibe that suits your intensity level. You wouldn't show up to Miami OCR with a practice sail. And you wouldn't show up to a rinky dink pond event protesting every infringement of class rules you saw. Your situation is probably somewhere in the middle and if you want to sail only with class legals, travel to those events. Concentrate on sailing better is how I vote.
     

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