Intensity Sails/Non-Laser Class Certified Sails

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by ABLaser, Jul 18, 2013.

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Let them be, or protest.

  1. Let Be

    84.6%
  2. Protest

    15.4%
  1. ABLaser

    ABLaser Cedar Point Yacht Club

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    I was recently at a regatta where I saw multiple boats using Intensity, and APS laser sails, not certified by laser class for racing. I have another regatta next week. Should I file a protest against all boats using illegal sails? Or just let them be?
     
  2. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    I would say it depends on the type of racing. Informal round-the-buoy racing, I say do whatever is needed to get butts in boats on the line. If it is a series of races over several weeks, or a multi-day regatta where people come from out of town, class-legal sails should be used. Regardless before filing any protests and creating a bunch of hurt feelings, I would think there needs to be a discussion as to what the sailors participating want. After deciding that, it should be written into the sailing instructions.

    And yes, I know requiring class-legal sails are already written into the instructions through a combination of clauses in the Rules of Racing and class rules prohibiting making any changes to the class rules. However we all know the ridiculous state of the class along with the price and availability of class-legal sails.
     
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  3. chemprof

    chemprof Member

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    Were they faster than you?
     
  4. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    Is it an official (ILCA, etc) sanctioned event?
     
  5. CoachK

    CoachK Member

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    The proverbial damn has broken so whether you like it or not after market sails are here to stay. They fit into local programs well because they allow sailors to compete at a much lower price (approx. 150 vs 600). You can certainly protest but do you really want to be known as "that guy?" Just go buy your own aftermarket sail (you can get three for the price of one regulation sail!) and have a good time. That said, large regattas still do require laser sanctioned equipment.
     
  6. CaptainAhab

    CaptainAhab Active Member

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    Several ways to look at this situation. Most people are not made of money. They could ruin their nice new Laser sail when racing against you at a non sanctioned event or use a training sail. Many people only use their good sail for big races. They use the training sail for training and perhaps smaller races.

    Other people cannot justify spending $600 on a sail when their boat cost them $1000.

    I encourage people to have both and use the training sail for messing around.

    Nothing like hearing some sissy boy whining about his new sail flogging on the beach.
     
  7. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    To me the solution for local/beer can races is to pick your favorite knock-off sail, then everyone use that same sail.
     
  8. Sailorchick

    Sailorchick Member

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    I actually threatened to protest someone over his rooster sail this weekend. At an ILCA sanctioned laser open. I have no issue with newbies using them to get started but if you are in the front half of the fleet I feel you should be using official gear. If you are doing a circuit (which this open was part of) then you really need official gear.

    I actually only threatened as he was being a knob and trying to intimidate me into tacking too early for a mark in strong tide. He soon shut up when I used that threat. Highly unlikely I would have carried it out but hey.
     
  9. CaptainAhab

    CaptainAhab Active Member

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    Rooster rig or Rooster practice sail?
     
  10. laserxd

    laserxd Member

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    I think it comes down to are they in the top of the fleet in a sanctioned event, winning medals, or if they're just learning and trying to have fun

    top sailors, sanctioned event, knock offs not acceptable
    beginners, sanctioned event, yellow area, let them sail, it's not like they're using a turbo sail, if they pull a miracle win it's not because of the sail

    we allow them in our frostbite series, there is literally no difference, except that a new sail is actually affordable, so the only advantage would be for someone who is priced out of a new sail forced to use an old pos might actually be able to be competitive with a non-class sail,

    The really ridiculous thing is that the non-class sails are probably built closer to spec than the class ones!
     
  11. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Extremely unlikely.
     
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  12. 663

    663 Member

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    The Intensity Sail is certainly made from better cloth and has a nicer shape than the North class sail.
     
  13. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Better cloth = Not within Laser Specifications.
    I'm hanging out for the new sails to be released, which might be some time. The current official ones leave a lot to be desired but the current official ones are completely within specifications including the variations in dimensions. To say that ones fake ones are probably more within specifications, when they are made with a material outside of the specification just because the tolerances on dimensions are tighter is ridiculous.
     
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  14. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    I think what laserxd was hinting at is that the overall quality control of the 'replicas' is better than the official sails so there is a much smaller spread in variation.

    I have seen some massive variations in new official sails over the year. Putting 2 together one was significantly larger than the other. Both bought at the same time from LP.
     
  15. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Oh and if you are sailing at a class sanctioned event your boat should be 100% class legal so definitely no replica/training sails.
     
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  16. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    Tell you what, I'll buy only class legal sails if you guys pay my kid's college tuition bills.
     
  17. Voodoo 158546

    Voodoo 158546 Hard hiking at the end of a 3hr race, killer

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    Think the above is true for a lot of laser sailors, for those who don't rely on their parents lavishing or those with kids n mortgage etc.
    I treated myself to a new sail recently as the official genuine sail is a bit blown out and the draft is way back, making it such hard work it wasn't fun.
    I could've merely not bought diesel and not bought food last month and got a new one eh !
    It winds me up that the ethos was always about encouraging folk on the water to have fun, now it seems to be about balancing the books...
    £450 quid for 8 metres of Dacron ? Only if it came in black with a logo of my choice
     
  18. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Of course the counter argument is that you both bought into the class with the long standing sail situation so you could say tough and live with it or sail a different class.

    There are Laser sailor I know who say everyone knows about the class and how expensive parts can be and they still chose to buy in to the class for good or for ill...

    That said for club racing my views are well known. If you want to do the open circuit/open regattas you boat should comply with class rules.
     
  19. Voodoo 158546

    Voodoo 158546 Hard hiking at the end of a 3hr race, killer

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  20. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Not elitist at all and I do take exception that you consider it that.

    I am all for getting as many people on the water and sailing (and from my point of view racing). I do think that there comes a line where you have to comply 100% with the class rules and, in my view, that is when you start attending Class Sanctioned open meetings or any of the major events such as the Grafham Grand Prix, Draycote Dash, Bloody Mare, Starcross Steameretc... I also believe that many people here share that view and that is what has made the class great over the years.

    We all know the class legal standard sail is an overpriced piece of cr*p and we are all waiting (but not holding our breath) for the new sail to be released. This is why I support use of replicas at club level so you can have a competitive sail for use in your local friendly fleet racing and keep your class legal sail for 'best'. This is what I do and I have a class legal sail that is 5 years old but has only been used about 7 or 8 times.

    I can pretty much guarantee that if you turned up at a UKLA sanction event in the UK with replica parts it is unlikely you would be allowed to compete. In fact the UKLA has said they will withdraw the 'grand prix' status for any club that allows the use of replica parts for any class sanctioned event (they are of course at liberty to hold an open meeting but it would not be part of a wider travelers circuit). We do put a note of the poster for our Laser open that boats must be class compliant although we do not enforce being a member of the UKLA.

    There are plenty of clubs I know of that do not permit replica Laser parts of any kind and you will be told you cannot sail as part of the Laser fleet until your boat complies (although I am sure you could race as part of their handicap fleet but what is the fun in that).

    Would you do this in any other 1 design class?

    Would you do this in any other sport?
     

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