Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by Portstar, Dec 2, 2008.
Ah ha! Since I have no intention of racing in "real competition" then it matters not a jot!
AMEN! $200 vs $500? someone is robbing us, and it is not Intensity i assure you. i have one class legal good sail just incase but why buy another. the class should allow Intensity and others to add a class royalty to make it legal like the lightnings and J/22's and other great classes do.
If im not mistaken, which doesnt happen often! Intensity, I sails and whatever others are out there can buy the class royalty, but it costs alot! Elvstrom produced sails many years ago, but north and hyde both came in, so I would think they bought royalty buttons. Might be just me!
I recall that Jim Myers of Intensity Sails tried to buy the royalty but was unable to do so. His sails ARE made with heavier fabric, so that may be the reason. Jim?
Don't mess with success, why would Intensity or i-sail or anyone else mess with the royalty, they have a great product and a perfect niche. Most of the sailors out there don't want or need to pay more for a class legal sail when they are primarily club racing. I, and most of my fleet, feel no need to get involved in $580 sails for the purpose of a sunday afternoon fleet. You want to go to the ACC's or Nat'l or Masters, go spend the extra dough(three times the price not including battens and roll bag) for a worse product. Laser Performance should be ashamed of the product they are selling and promoting, they are not, why, because when you have a monopoly and the folks who pay them aren't willing to hold their feet to the fire the sailors get hosed.
Leave Intensity, and Kavane, and i-sails just as they are.....perfect.
I just acquired an old Laser with two old sails. One has the Laser icon in the clew but the sail is ripped in several places. The other has no rips but it has an Elvstrom icon in the clew. Is the Elvstrom sail legal in class races?
I sent both sails to SailCare to see what they could do with them. I was thinking of trashing the ripped one and having SailCare do their magic to the Elvstrom. But if Elvstrom is not a legal sale then it might make sense to trash them both and just buy a new (non-legal) i-sail.
Your thoughts? Thank you.
Elvstroem (Toronto/Canada) has been the first official sailmaker for the Laser. Hans Fogh, the designer of the first Laser sail, was official Sailmaker for Elvstoem at Toronto. It is conform to the Laser class rules to use such a sail on a Laser that is from the same age. Any Laserite that has a favor for "vintage"-Lasers loves to have a Laser sail of Elvstroem. In our days, such Elvstroem sails are nothing for serious racing , of course. I own 2 Elvstroem Sails for the Laser, one with window and one without a window. Time probably will come for that those old "vintage" sails of Elvstroem get someting of worth, who knows...
I will go ahead and have SailCare clean the Elvstroem sail for $69.00. I appreciate your speedy response. Thank you.
I'm pretty sure (and Intensity can correct me if I'm wrong) that both the Intensity and the I-sails are the exact same weight as the class legal sails. According to the owner of I-Sails, who as Barometer Soup pointed out sails in our Park City, UT fleet, said, the resins are the only thing that separate the sails. He feels that the resins that he's using are stronger and better and they will last a lot longer. I have an I-sails at home and I like it a lot. I was so against the idea of these sails at first but I have to admit, they serve a pretty good purpose. The owner of I-sails did start the company in France but he's spent a lot of time in the US, having lived in Boston for about 15 years I think it was and then moved back to France for a short time and now lives in Park City. You'll see a lot of the I-sails on the PC fleet's boats next Summer I'm sure.
Sorry I am late in replying. The sail cloth is the same weight but has a higher resin content. We have now made over 4000 sails with this type of cloth and found that they are very resilient with a much longer usable life. They do require more cunningham tension to achieve the same shape as the class legal sails as the resin in the cloth makes for more resistance to vertical stretch. This does however make for a longer lasting sail.
That said, I did offer a royalty per sail to the class when I started but it was refused. That was 3 years ago. I am not sure that there is any change in that feeling at the ILCA level.
Jim, let me tell you a nice story:
In early 2007, I did buy "in advance payment" for the sailing club I am member of, 3 new Standard Hyde Sails for the Laser, via Ebay.uk (total costs incl. shipping: about 950 British Pound that was at 2007: about 1500 Euro).
We did want to “relaunch” a Laserfleet and we expected the youth would use the new stuff, that I bought. Unfortunately, the new Laserfleet not has been relaunched. So, I have been left with this 3 sails. In reason of unemployment, I now rise down my hobby a bit, sell my Laser Manatee to get a cheaper hull soon and, of course, I try to sell these 3 sails that sleep in the basement for now 2 years.
I made an offer at our GER Laserforum and many did visit the offer (over 40 clicks in 4 days). The price is: 480 Euro per sail (incl. original set of battens and sail bag), that is about 23% less of the list-price at our local "Laser-Direct"-Store at Hamburg. Result of the offer: No one, yes, no one even did ask for 1 of this sails.
I easily could add an example of an equal offer of a former Laserpro of GER that now tries to offer his unused rolled Hyde as a bargain... We have about 1100 active Laserites at the GER. From the hearsay I know, several GER Laserites like Intensity Sails and do buy your sails, Jim.
This small story says to me:
The GER Laserites already "vote by foot" to not buy original Lasersails, even if they cost over 25% less, but to order Sails from Intensity sails (or those of Steve Cockerill or "i-sails"/"InSails").
That situation sure is one part of the reasons why ILCA and the originally builders do not want to have you in the boat. Yes, there are many official reasons (f.e.: The regulations of the "Builders Manual") to "not let in" external builders of Laserparts "into our club", but that all are "non-convincing"-reasons, if one has a view to the realistic situation of the market.
It is the same situation like with the Car "Nano" for “Tata Automotive Company”/India. The European market do not let it in, in reason it is to cheap and would completely ruin the car market. -> http://www.focus.de/auto/neuwagen/neuheiten/tata-nano_aid_232954.html )
The basic reason for having the "Builders Manual"-bible and the "monopoly building" of the Laser was the “Qualitymanagement” (to secure that all Laser's are "equal"). From many years in the past up to now this did change into the reason: "to secure the existence" of the families that build the Laser for us and probably make some small profit for some ILCA- and ISAF functionaries and the inventors of the Laser. One may read this very clear between the lines that Heini Wellman wrote in the "LaserWorld" of September 2008 (page 7:: "...support your local dealer and buy local. ...").
If I look to the past: The sails for the Laser changed from Elvstroem Sailmakers (Hans Fogh) to Harstick sailmakers and then to North Sails and Hyde Sails. Each change did involve more or less a change of the sailcloth to a better quality (I have a sail of each of those former Laser sailmakers in my basement in my stock to compare, believe me). So, it is absolutely un-plausible, why now it is "impossible" for the ILCA to let you in with your nice sails, Jim (or those of Steve Cockerill or Insails)? As I told, in reasons of above, they would "dig away their own water" as we say at GER, that is the reason nothing else.
Instead of to design an expensive new Mylar (-or whatever-) sail for the upper 1000 of the global active pro-Laserites, the owners of LaserPerformance/PSE Australia and the ILCA better think of changes, that make the Laser payable again for the "small rest" of active Laserites that washes mainly the money into their wallet. To legalize at low-level official Laserraces the sails of Intensity Sailing or Roostersailing or Insail would be a small beginning into the future. Some of the ILCA World council can't jump over their own shaddow, but for me I see there is hope for the future: If the old farts/"concrete heads" (such as Heini or Jeff) soon in future hopefully are "digged 6 feet under", the new and younger officers sure change the situation (I'm kidding, sorry).
Personally, I would say: "Let in those sails for official races (for national "ranking points") under the level of national championships" and for the upper "Top 10" /"pro"-Laserites: a new sail like it is already in designing-process now by the ILCA delegated sailmakers (Hyde/North).
(As we say at GER: "Wer nicht mit der Zeit geht, "geht" mit der Zeit..." ->"Those who havn't a "good sense"/feeling for pulse of the modern times, sooner or later get fired...")
My name is Philippe Astié, and I run i-Sails. I would like to take a minute to post some asnwers to questions above, and keep it informational. You will find no commercial information below, no prices, promos, web site address, etc.... Google can get you those in one click....
Before I start, though, I want to clarify that we are not affiliated or related in any form to Intensity Sails or Insails. You all know Jim and Intensity; and Insails is the guy selling primarily on EBay.
I am a forever sailor, class member (94xxx, then194037), proud owner of both a a North and a Hyde sail, and modestly support this forum via some ads you may see at the bottom.
I started i-Sails when I was living in Europe, to provide through a professional web outfit the opportunity to race amicably in non sanctionned events using well made, durable sails. Our Laser sails are designed to emulate the feel, performance, speed, pointing ability of the official ones - without the expensive red logo that buys you officaldom and race-ability in sanctionned events. Do not look for a performance advantage in our sails as there are none.....
I am not going to venture into whose sails are better. I like mine, I sail it in our friendly Tuesday night races with as much success - or lack thereof - as when I use my North sail. I have had the opportunity to examine carefully an Intensity sails that belongs to another fleet member. I thought it was a nice, well made product. I have noticed some small manufacturing and finish differences that make me almost positive that they are not made in the same loft as ours.
Not seen the rooster, or the InSail, but I hear the rooster sail is very, very similar to ours.
As far as i-Sails, we have looked at growth plans and determined we want to remain a pure one design sailmaker. No hardware, no shipchandlery. We are working on advanced prototypes for Finn and Corsaire (a popular small keellboat in Europe), and for other one designs we can not talk about at this time.
We are committed to producing beautiful, well designed, well priced one design sails; using the best available designers and sailor-consultant for each program; and leveraging the internet to the max for the design and marketing / retailing of our sails. Hence our name....
I am available to answer any non commercial questions here; and any commercial ones via our web site.
I hope to meet many of you at the district 23 / no coast master championships our Park City fleet is organizing in September in Utah. I will be racing my North sail that week end - although my hull may sport a sticker or two for another sail brand
Do the radial laser sails from intensity have the blue tips at the tack,clew and head of the sail?
No. We do not have the colored corners on our radial sail. They are all white.
In Australia i-sails cost $200 with tt, batts, and bag. True Laser sails are on sale for $550 with the other stuff. Pretty good deal to use as a non-measured race/practice sail.
thanks my friend said that yee do have them but i told him they dont. why dont yee have the blue corners for the radial sail?
Well, As these are not class legal the only thing it would do is add cost to the sail. There is no benefit to having them for class racing.
I just wish all the suppliers of non class legal equipment would delibrately make there equipment clearly appear not to be class legal equipment. Part of the reason why I opted not to remain a class measurer was it was becoming more of a problem identifying class legal equipment form counterfeit equipment and sooner or later I was going to miss seeing a sail, centreboard, rudder, boom, mast plug or something else, when measuring several hundred boats at a regatta, someone was then going to protest and I was going to be held responsible for "permitting" that piece of equipment to be used. FFS, it's easy enough for them to copy the equipment, it's equally easy for them to make sure it stands out at 10m/30' as being non class legal.
Is there any difference between the intensity sails in the USA and the rooster sails and the UK and Ireland
Yes the sails are from different factories using different cloth.
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