I keep stalling in heavy wind

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dannyboy3128

New Member
hi ive been sailing a few years now im havin a real issue when in heavy winds the boat keeps trying to point into the wind im fighting all the time with the tiller i have down haul on hard outhaul on kicker on but still it keeps trying to pul head to wind upwind this cant be good for my boat speed with the rudder not being straight PLEASEEEEEE HELP ME chers dan :confused:
 
Re: laser sailing in keeps stalling in heavy wind

dannyboy3128 said:
hi ive been sailing a few years now im havin a real issue when in heavy winds the boat keeps trying to point into the wind im fighting all the time with the tiller i have down haul on hard outhaul on kicker on but still it keeps trying to pul head to wind upwind this cant be good for my boat speed with the rudder not being straight PLEASEEEEEE HELP ME chers dan :confused:
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Things to check:

check the outhaul - too tight and you'll over trim to find speed that isn't going to turn up.

check that vang is on tight - If you know you're going out in heavy winds, tighten the vang before the cunningham.


sail trim - use leech tails to tell you when you're stalled/overtrimmed - ease the mainsheet and flatten the boat, steer lower. If you have heavy weather helm, ease the sheet. The more you ease the less the W/helm with become.

method - generally keep the boat flatter. Start from luffing and pull the main in slowly, going low in the gusts for speed, then heading up and trimming, keeping the boat flat all the time, keep trimming and heading up until you can't hold it flat anymore. That will be the best you can do for the conditions. If you pinch in gusts that are longer than a few seconds you'll lose all your speed. Try going low and flat instead.
 
Re: laser sailing in keeps stalling in heavy wind

im 15 stone and were talking anything over a fource 3 its very hard work to keep the boat straight keeping it up right is ok for me thanks dan:)
 
Re: laser sailing in keeps stalling in heavy wind

Check out the "Upwind" DVD from the Boat Whisperer series. The first part addresses this very topic.
 
Re: laser sailing in keeps stalling in heavy wind

How upright do you mean? If you just mean dry leeward heel causes you to come up, forcing you to use the rudder which slows you down. I wasn't sure if you just meant not-capsizing or vertical mast upright. :)
 
Re: laser sailing in keeps stalling in heavy wind

"Check out the "Upwind" DVD from the Boat Whisperer series. The first part addresses this very topic."

I agree. This helped me a great deal with the same problem.
 
Re: laser sailing in keeps stalling in heavy wind

More cuuningham tension is required. The eye of the cunningham should touch the top of the boom to open up the top section of the sail and reduce power . Dump main in the gusts, also it is possible to have too much vang tension with the new system!! Finally hike out harder before gust hits while dumping main inthe heavier gusts. Hope this helps.
 
Re: laser sailing in keeps stalling in heavy wind

184254 said:
... also it is possible to have too much vang tension with the new system!!
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What would excess vang tension do if you're trying to dump power? Don't you want as much tension as you can get? I'm just a bit confuzzled on how you can have too much.
 
All you can really do to stop windward heel in high wind is to tighten the sail controls and hike. Sheeting out or feathering to luff the sail will simply cause the stern half to create power while the luff would not contribute, shifting the center of effort aft and creating more windward heel. If the boat is allowed to heel over too much, this will cause the power created by even a well trimmed sail to be to leeward of the center of resistance (the daggerboard), creating windward heel. So, just crank your outhaul, cunningham, and vang (but not too much), and make sure you're hiking parallel to the water with just your toes under the strap.

And yes, you can have too much vang tension with the new vang. It is easily possible to bend the mast if you crank it too hard. Also, in theory, it could stall out the top of the sail, creating even more heel.
 
Good reply AAHF.This is exactly what happens, you stall out the top of the sail with too much vang tension using the new system (impossible to do this with the old system). You still need enough power to sail fast in heavy winds, vang tension will vary with the weight of the sailor (more vang tension if you are lighter). Dumping sheet in a gust in heavy air is a quick way to release power from the rig, keeping the boat as flat as possible (even heel),minimal tiller movement if any at all, but equally you need to hike out further before that gust hits!!! You must anticipate.
 
Slightly off topic, but....

At risk of upsetting someone, I'd like to point out that if you crank up the vang to the point that mast bend exceeds the curve cut into the luff of the sail, you dont stall the top, it just falls away to leeward and you get ugly wrinkles running from somewhere near the mast join to the end of the boom. I've seen people do this, then start heaving cunningham on trying to remove the wrinkles!! that makes it worse, as due to compression, the mast bends even further.

Back on topic.....

A rough guide for sail trim, for a guy our size (I'm similar weight) in a force 4 and above, would be this -
cunningham on tight (on my boat, the eye itself is about an inch above the gooseneck)
Outhaul tightish (put your hand on the old outhaul cleat and push the sail out, it should be about 3 1/2 - 4 inches from the cleat)
Kicker/ Vang - go to block to block on the mainsheet, take all slack out of vang, then pull about 4-6 inches extra (if using an 8:1 kicker) This will let the boom lift about 6 inches when you ease the main.
I very rarely pull on more kicker than this, as I find I need that little extra power to roll over waves, the exception being if its flat water and I need to foot off a little to cover someone or (ahem) have overlaid the mark, in which case I'll pull on a bit more.

If you find that the problem is when you are going slowly, like after tacking, then another option which used to work for me when I was lighter (and it was seriously windy - F6+ ) was to leave the centreboard up about 4 or 5 inches. this would stop the boat screwing up into the wind as much, and my pointing didnt seem to suffer at all. I did notice back then that if the wind died at all, I had to shove the board down, as when the boat got slower in lighter winds, my pointing then began to suffer.
 
madyottie said:
Slightly off topic, but....

At risk of upsetting someone, I'd like to point out that if you crank up the vang to the point that mast bend exceeds the curve cut into the luff of the sail, you dont stall the top, it just falls away to leeward and you get ugly wrinkles running from somewhere near the mast join to the end of the boom. I've seen people do this, then start heaving cunningham on trying to remove the wrinkles!! that makes it worse, as due to compression, the mast bends even further.

Back on topic.....

A rough guide for sail trim, for a guy our size (I'm similar weight) in a force 4 and above, would be this -
cunningham on tight (on my boat, the eye itself is about an inch above the gooseneck)
Outhaul tightish (put your hand on the old outhaul cleat and push the sail out, it should be about 3 1/2 - 4 inches from the cleat)
Kicker/ Vang - go to block to block on the mainsheet, take all slack out of vang, then pull about 4-6 inches extra (if using an 8:1 kicker) This will let the boom lift about 6 inches when you ease the main.
I very rarely pull on more kicker than this, as I find I need that little extra power to roll over waves, the exception being if its flat water and I need to foot off a little to cover someone or (ahem) have overlaid the mark, in which case I'll pull on a bit more.

If you find that the problem is when you are going slowly, like after tacking, then another option which used to work for me when I was lighter (and it was seriously windy - F6+ ) was to leave the centreboard up about 4 or 5 inches. this would stop the boat screwing up into the wind as much, and my pointing didnt seem to suffer at all. I did notice back then that if the wind died at all, I had to shove the board down, as when the boat got slower in lighter winds, my pointing then began to suffer.
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True, but until that point, sail twist would simply decrease, causing the upper section of the sail to be overtrimmed, especially considering that apparent wind is actually further aft higher up the sail on a beat or close reach. However, you are right, eventually it would lead to what you mentioned.

As for raising the daggerboard, it might reduce windward helm, but it would also increase sideslipping. Which is not to say its a bad idea, it just requires a bit of extra caution when planning the final tack on an upwind leg, as the boat will slip to leeward a bit more than normal.
 
hi thanks for ur brilant info ive put some of these into practice but im still finding that upwind my rudder is allways pulled to one side hardly ever straight im not stalling as much now ,which is good news im hiking hard and keeping my boat flat any ideas :confused:
 
Are your rudder and centre board alinghed? dunnno, this may have an effect. When sailing upwind, even if the boats dead flat i always have a little weather helm.... but maybe thats just my boat...
Liam
 
AAHF said:
True, but until that point, sail twist would simply decrease, causing the upper section of the sail to be overtrimmed, especially considering that apparent wind is actually further aft higher up the sail on a beat or close reach. However, you are right, eventually it would lead to what you mentioned.
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exactly right. I can get to that stage now with a simple 8:1 kicker, so if you have a 16:1 or similar, its probably happening a lot sooner than you think.

AAHF said:
As for raising the daggerboard, it might reduce windward helm, but it would also increase sideslipping. Which is not to say its a bad idea, it just requires a bit of extra caution when planning the final tack on an upwind leg, as the boat will slip to leeward a bit more than normal.
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I kinda mentioned that in my post. but to elaborate.....
When I was sailing full rig at about 65kg's in weight (when I was 16-18 ish) and in over about 20 knots of wind, I found I would often stall out on the beats. Especially when going slowly after a tack, I often found myself in irons, as I wasnt heavy enough to hold the boat flat, even at a full hike.
I then found (by accident) that in one race when I couldn't lean in to get the board down after the start, that with it up 6" i was going a lot faster, and not spinning out. After a few hundred yards I had managed to hit the lead, against guys who usually hammered me in those conditions. I wasnt side slipping any more than they were, which was shown by the fact that I managed to hold my lane out of the start.
I'm not sure where I ended up in the race, but I did a lot better than I normally did in the conditions.

Maybe some aerodynamicist type person could shed some light on this, but here's my theory.
We all know that lift from the centreboard increases according to our speed through the water.
I think what was happening was, downspeed, straight afetr a tack, the board would slip just enough to allow the bow to blow offwind, instead of gripping the water that little bit more, which would result in a spin head to wind. This meant I could build speed easier, as not struggling with loads of weather helm.
Once up to speed, the lift from the board increased enough to prevent loads of side slip. I also had less trouble with the gusts, possibly because the board would slip a little when they hit, instead of spinning me into the wind.

as soon as the wind died slightly, the increase in slip was huge, and I nedded to shove the board back down again, pronto! when the breeze built up again, to the point where I was struggling again, I pulled it back up and all was good!

If I remember correctly, someone in the Tillman book (in the interview section at the back) said they used a similar technique. I've been asking for my copy back for a few weeks now, so one day it'll arrive!

I haven't tried this in recent years when i'm bigger, or if there are big waves about, but in flattish water it worked for me as a lightweight.
If its breezy this weekend I'll give it a go... we have a Grand Prix event at our club on Sunday. I know which guys I'm usually close to in these events, so will have a good indication.
 
LPW said:
Are your rudder and centre board alinghed? dunnno, this may have an effect. When sailing upwind, even if the boats dead flat i always have a little weather helm.... but maybe thats just my boat...
Liam
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You don't need to be heeling to get windward helm. All that has to happen is for the center of effort to move aft of your daggerboard. So, make sure your sail is properly trimmed and that your vang is at the appropriate tension.
 
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