I am questioning Vanguards quality

I

I break things

New Member
after a new top section breaking, a bottom section bending beyond repair, i am beginning to question Vanguards quality are there any better spars out there?:confused::confused::confused:
 
Well you aren't really questioning vangaurds quality, you're making assumptions based on opinion.

Before you question quality, you'd need serious research to find out the failure rate of any given spar, and know where the spars where made (probably not by vangaurd).

Asking if someone has broken (yes you broke it) their spars on a messag board just looks for rumour to support assumption.
 
They can break and bend and have been doing so since before the vang upgrade. The spars are like sails, you need to break them in before taking a brand new one out in over 15 knots. Also, ease the vang before rounding the weather mark if its on tight you are risking a break on the top section. Nature of the beast not really quality related.
 
You're not the only one complaining recently about how frequently top and bottom spars bend, and top spars break. Anecdotally it does seem to be more of a problem these days than it was ten years ago.

Thank God that Vanguard has been taken over by PSE. I'm sure that means that the US made Lasers will become lighter and stiffer (see that other thread on this topic), new boats won't leak, and we will never see another bent spar as long as we live.

PS If you believe this I have some sub-prime mortgage derivatives that I can sell you at an excellent price.
 
When I was at the World's in Portugal there was a "race" between the 470,
49er and Laser classes to see how many spars were broken (average wind 20+ with several 30+ days)...I don't remember the eaxct tally but it was something like 49er 30, 470 27 and Laser 25 and those were English built Lasers....I could start a whole topic on extruded aluminum and how each mast is not the same, it's a very inexact method of building and some masts end up with thinner sidewalls then others. If that is the case bring your spar back to your dealer, they will cut a piece out of the broken area and send to Vanguard. If the wall thickness is below tolerence you will get a new spar, if it isn't you buy a new spar and follow break in proceedures above...
 
He's too young to read bloombergs or get burned by a sub-prime mortgage. :D
And his coach would make sure that didn't happen either.
 
I want to see the scientific explanation related to "breaking in" new mast sections.

And for those of you who seem to be aware of the "break in process" already.

Clue us in.

This should be a fun read
 
I"ve heard folks talk about "stiffining" a new spar by breaking it in. As I have understood it the rule is take the boat out in medium breeze, (8-12) and sail upwind, downwind, for several hours applying vang pressure gradually. Same as with a new sail.

I've heard that taking it out for the first sail in a blow it's much more likely to bend/break.
 
If laser masts are 6061-T6, the they are fully heat treated and partially artificially aged aluminium. Just leaving them alone at room temperature will make them stronger. Precipitation hardening occurs naturally in that kind of alloy.

But if they are a strain hardened alloy, they will get softer with age.

Seeing how no one can answer the question further down this forum about "what grade aluminium is a laser mast", how is anyone expected to know what method to use to "break them in".

Anecdotally, I picked up my mast the other day and could swear it was more floppy than earlier this year. I have eyes like the bionic man, so I will now go forth and spread the rumour that laser masts soften with age, regardless of the science.
 
Chainsaw said:
If laser masts are 6061-T6, the they are fully heat treated and partially artificially aged aluminium. Just leaving them alone at room temperature will make them stronger. Precipitation hardening occurs naturally in that kind of alloy.

But if they are a strain hardened alloy, they will get softer with age.
Click to expand...

Do Laser sailors get softer with age? Should they be left alone at room temperature or worked gently at 10-15 knots without too much vang? Can they be artificially aged? Does heat treatment help?
 
that is where you are wrong! sails do need to be broken and, and they have to be stretched evenly, and get all the fibers set the right way
 
Sails haven't needed to be broken in since canvas and tall ship days. It only takes a couple of hours to pull seems tight in a new modern sail.

What is this new discovery you've made, Ross?
 
its always been common practice here to go break in a new sail before a race
 
You would certainly see how a new sail sets and recalibrate any settings previously used on a similar old sail, but "breaking in"?
 
A sail needing "breaking in" to avoid damage sounds really silly to me and well, considering that my main source of income is making sails you'd figure I would be able to understand the reasoning behind it, or at least have heard something like that.
I guess Ross B has secret information which noone else has ever figured out.
 
Part of the problem is people don't use the new vang system properly. It is easy to over vang and bend the mast with the new Vang. Add to that turning downwind with the vang on and you will eventually break a top section.

As for the breaking in...I think there is a reasonable case for gradually sailing the mast harder and turning the top section 180 deg for a couple of sails to help stiffen...doesn't hurt.

Sail breakin in not to keep from breaking but to help stretch the sail in the appropriate places to help with the sail shape to make it a faster sail. Or do you really like that big wrinkle from the middle of the mast to the clew.

All my personal opinon of course and the only scientific evidence I have is that the top guys are consistently in the top for a reason...
 
i must have had a crappy top section because i was 10 feet off the starting line with my settings off in around 15-20k (i was about to adjust them) with my sail block to block and my top section broke and my bottom got bent and my sail ripped thats why i'm confused. The top section wasnt that old either maybe a year max and it broke with barely any pressure on it. And i was in first too. Does Vanguard hate me? and thanks for the help
 
If you're 2 blocked in 15-20 there is more than just a little pressure on the rig. However, you got nailed pretty good. Ripped sail, top section and bottom section you're looking at a cool grand in replacment so i can see how you're pissed.
 
I break things said:
. Does Vanguard hate me? and thanks for the help
Click to expand...


Don't be silly IBT. There isa a profit motive involved. They love you. Not only were you a pretty good customer last year but this year you are going to buys lots more stuff from them.
You WILL purchase official Laser equipment becuase you want to play the Laser game.

The best part?? Everybody else will help Vanguard out by making proxied excuses for their crap.
Garbage is the Laser way and we must have equal garbage forever. They will sell you another set of low quality garbage because "class rules don't allow improvements" unless the builders feel like making improvements.
So they will gleefully sell you more substandard garbage that will bend, break, tear, flutter, soften, or otherwise be obsolete within years or simetimes months or even days.

So dear IBT there is a profit motive.
Someday, someone will notice the easy pickings ad develop and market a durable product that does everything a Laser does....except break or rapidly wear out.

For the sake of the game of sailing, I hope that day comes soon.
 
Not likely or even really possible. It will take a great bot to displace the Laser. And it will take someone with teh financial endurance toi go for years before critical mass is reached.
I am thinking a five year minimum from introduction to 100 boat fleets. Also, it will take some charisma.

That is why we need to keep Ross for our selfish promotion of our own investments in Lasers.

ROSS FOR VP
 
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