how to fill the mast with foam

Discussion in 'Capri/Catalina 14 Talk' started by ivanhoe, Aug 20, 2006.

  1. GustHo

    GustHo New Member

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    Thanks Kent for the paint thinner suggestion...I'll give it a try, but I think the stained seat will require something more aggressive.

    Fyi Bob...I too, as did Kent, found after running a long wire up the aft end of the mast, that some foam product still remains (one week later) sticky :eek: . As directed, I shook the 2 cans vigorously, so my only guess is that it requires open air exposure (not sure that makes any :confused: sense) to set firm. I will plug the bottom before stepping with hopes of avoiding Kent's problem. As far as I can tell there has been no significant weight change. I too would like to know if anyone has experienced positive mast foaming results.
     
  2. jmmedley

    jmmedley New Member

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    Open Air

    No experience with foaming masts, but plenty with foam in general. Most foams require water (from moisture in the air) to cure properly. So, sealed in the mast, it is quite possible that there is uncured foam in the middle. With closed cell foams, there is no way for the air to get to the core of the foam once it forms a skin. Maybe foaming in small sections would help?
     
  3. rkrebill

    rkrebill Member

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    Cheap Bob

    Another method I've seen is to take one of those foam swimming noodles used by us kids, and twist it into an elipse, tie it there with alight line thru some holes you drill, or if the noodle has a pre-drilled hole all the way thru, run a line there and tie it together to form the elipse. Then drill a couple of small holes in tip top of mast, put rubber grommets in them, run a line thru and attach the eliptical noodle to that so that it runs parallel to the water with mast up. May not look quite as good as a baby bob, but can be done for less than $5. I mimicked the pink one I saw with a blue noodle, but unfortunately never capsized with it in place---- yet. I don't use it for racing as we have a safety boat nearby to help if in trouble, but it makes me feel good if alone away from help.

    re/foam in mast, my guess is its best to just seal the upper end to stop the inflow of water during a capsize, but don't try to seal the whole mast as that would just add a little more weight. Another thing, when you are in the water after capsize, don't put your weight onto the mast, or sail, or rigging, or boat gunnel in the water, as that forces things downward hastening a turtle. And be sure sheets are uncleated before you go around to pull on the centerboard to right the craft. Otherwise, you are lifting hundreds of pounds of water, along with the boat. RK
     
  4. Steve Brockwell

    Steve Brockwell New Member

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    Noodle in the mast?

    Is there a way to push/pull a series of the float noodles INSIDE the mast?

    I wonder if you could do it and if it would work as well or even closely to a Baby Bob.

    Looks like a warm winter day project for me. (as soon as the local stores have the noodles)

    I will let everyone know what I find out. If anyone has done it please speak up.

    Steve
    #352
     
  5. VCMaine

    VCMaine New Member

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    Mast head float

    I called Dani at Catalina just last week and ordered my mast head float, part # 15629 for $180.00. That plus a foam plug top and bottom of the mast is my intention for keeping the mast head out of the muck. Of course it'll be a few months before I can report. This is NH, it was -13F yesterday morning. Thats 13 below zero for real, not just wind chill.

    Update, received the mast head float today from Catalina. I haven't weighed it, I'll report on that later, but it feels like about 2-3 pounds. Its about three feet tall and quite bulky. Photos attached (I hope). I stuck a partial roll of paper towels in the top end to "simulate" a mast. It is not at all clear to me how this is deployed. Before I resort to calling the factory, can anyone tell me just how this works?

    Update 2, the mast head float with the shackle weighs 2 lbs 6 oz, per our postal scale.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Solarfry

    Solarfry Member

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    Test against turtle

    I hope you plugged both ends of mast with foam.

    Has anyone that filled mast with foam tested the setup against turtling?

    Inquiring minds would like to know..
     
  7. VCMaine

    VCMaine New Member

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    Turtle testing

    It'll be May or June before I get to turtle testing the mast mods. If I get really ambitious, I'll test it first with top end plug only, then again with top and bottom plugs, and of course finally with the mast head float attached, if I can figure out how to deploy it...
     
  8. VCMaine

    VCMaine New Member

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    Transom Stirrup

    As part of my preparations for capsizing and turtle testing, I'd like to add a transom stirrup for remounting the beast. I've seen a couple of ideas for that, including a plastic stirrup on a rope. Is there anything else out there for a transom stirrup that can be easily deployed while you are in the water?
     
  9. Allatoona

    Allatoona Member

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    Transom Stirrup

    I tied a couple of loops in some webbing. Then ran the webbing through a drain hole, and clipped the webbing inside the boat. I toss the it over the transom and back into the cockpit.

    So when I capsize, I can use the webbing straps as a rope ladder to get back into the boat. Only problem, is that if the loops are deep enough to get your foot into, then as you stand, your feet end up under the boat.

    I'm considering mounting a folding ladder on the transom for this very reason.... Plus, I would have the ability to swim between races to cool off in the hot weather, without a struggle to reenter the boat.

    -Robert
    1989 Capri 14.2
    1984 Catalina 22
     
  10. JGM

    JGM Member

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    I have a diagram of this rig in my Capri manual and it shows the sleeve as sliding over the mainsail and attaching to the mainsail halyard shackle along with the sail at the head. Then it looks like it fits around the boltrope as it is fed into the mast slot while raising the sail. From what I can see, it looks like raising the sail will work pretty well but I can't understand why it won't bunch when dropping the sail. It looks like your first day out this season will be pretty interesting. ;)

    BTW, it also says in the manual the baby bob has 32 lbs of buoyancy and the sleeve has 17 lbs of buoyancy.

    My mast evidently came from the factory plugged with foam and when we had our turtling incident, there was no indication the foam did anything. Turtling is more complicated than just buoyancy at the mast head. In our case, the wind was blowing so hard, when the boat was laying on it's side, the wind actually pushed against the exposed bottom of the hull; turtling literally occurred in a few seconds.

    I bought an actual stainless steel saddle stirrup off Ebay for $5. It's weight and size make it pretty easy to get your foot into. It's fastened to a length of 2" webbing which is hand sewn onto the stirrup's eye with some 50lb test. Then the webbing is anchored to the rear hiking strap bracket in the same manner as the hiking strap.

    In use, the hard part is reaching the dang thing if it's bouncing around in the bottom of the cockpit while you're treading water off the stern. I haven't solved the problem yet but ideally it should be gathered and hung on the transom somewhere.

    Hope this helps,
    Jim
     
  11. Solarfry

    Solarfry Member

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    Turtling.

    I found from my turtling experience.

    Todays boats are too wide to remain on the side without any weight on centerboard. Once on the side the weight of boat and wind pressure pushes the mast under. Once mast is under it fills with water making it a lot. I mean a lot heavier. Once mast fills with water it is next to impossible to right the boat.

    Once boat is updise down centerboard goes back into slot making it pretty difficult to retrieve unless there is a string from bottom of centerboard you can use to haul it out and up. You need to be quick and be over side and onto board before boat begins the death roll (goes belly up).

    Without some kind of righting system like Hobie-cat-righting-straps it is next to impossible to right boat once it turtles. Mast fills with water and acts as a keel adding that column of water in mast to weight you have to right.

    You do not need to fill the whole mast with foam. If you fill the top 1' and bottom 1' about 4" from outside edge it will prevent mast from filling with water.

    Some boats have mast opennings sealed and some do not. ??? I have not idea why.

    A turtling is a pretty frightening experience the first time it happens. If it happens to you alone in the boat you may need rescuing. I found that once my boat was upside down and mast filled with water I could not rescue it by myself no matter what I tried. I pulled the board out of slot, loosened all sheets and pulled main halyard onto boat side, added a lenght of line to halyard, leaned my 170# outboard pulling on bottom of board, ran line from mast to board and leaned on outboard edge of boat. All to no avail. That is why I made a weighted centerboard. Once that weighted centerboard was on all turtling problems became a thing of the past.

    It takes two to right the boat. If you sail alone and she goes over you will need to be rescued. Carry a floating VHF with you at all times if you sail alone in windy conditions without reefing as I do.

    Good luck!
     
  12. Roger Lohrey

    Roger Lohrey New Member

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    I just had a thought. If there was a line tied to the top of the mast could you use that line to right a boat that was trutled? The biggest problem that a person has when the boat has turtled is pulling the mast and the sails up thru the water. Even if the center board is sticking thru the hull it is not long enough to counteract the force of the mast. But, if you tied a line to the top of the mast and then had it follow one of the shrouds down and tied it off at the base of the shroud you could untie the line and then use it to pull the mast up. I would think that the force needed to pull up the mast up would be lower than the boyancy force that is created by the life jacket. Provided that the mast is not stuck in the mud. Now with the mast level with the water the center board could be pushed out and then the boat brought back up.
    Does anyone see a problem with this logic? A 1/4" diameter line would be more than large enough to do the job.

    Just my 2 cents

    Roger
     
  13. Solarfry

    Solarfry Member

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    Kill that turtle

    I would say if you dive under boat (an extremely dangerous thing with all those lines waiting to snag you) you could swim out with a second life preserver and slowly pull the tip of mast up and float it on top of life preserver. Then you could swim back to board, pull it down and lift mast out and clear of water. This is how TWO sailors are supposed to rescue a sailboat that flips over. It is the way righting is taught at sailing schools. If you are alone you definitely do not want to dive under turtled sailboat to pull a line out. Tying
    a line from tip of mast to side of boat might help you if you are alone.

    It seems a lot simpler to avoid turtling altogether but it is next to impossible, as weather will not cooperate. A hobie ball buoy on top of mast is help; the C14 top o sail sleeved foam is also help.

    A weighted centerboard is definitely a must if you sail alone, like to go fast and love that centerboard hum. Especially if you sail in the land of the motorboat. Sitting around for 2 hrs on top of a turtled sailboat is no fun, neither is being rescued.
     
  14. VCMaine

    VCMaine New Member

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    So the front edge fabric of the mast head float goes into the mast slot along with the bolt rope? I would not have guessed. I'll post when I try it. Thanks also for the stainless stirrup and web strap idea. I'm still pondering this one...
     
  15. gbaratta

    gbaratta New Member

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    weighted centerboard (how to)

    "That is why I made a weighted centerboard. Once that weighted centerboard was on all turtling problems became a thing of the past." (nice!)

    Solarfry,

    Thank you a great deal for your post and for sharing your experience in the forum. I am very new to sailing, and even more to the C14, and since I am getting ready for a series of "solo" summer sailing (my family is a little afraid of the sailing..) I was wondering if you would be so kind to share more details, and even some pictures (if you have any) about how you made the weighted centerboard. With such addition to my boat, I may be able to convince my family in join me for few deserved summer fun.

    Thanks in advance for your time.
     
  16. Solarfry

    Solarfry Member

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    It was a few years ago. I have no pictures.

    It is not that difficult as you use existing centerboard as a guide. A little imagination helps. The piece of steel has to be clean and was about 8" wide by close to 4' long. The centerboard hangs with a pinhole through the steel and is totally enclosed in epoxy. I imagine you could use laminating resin.

    Sorry. Have no more info.

    A pic of finished product at this time would not help as it looks like a centerboard painted white.
     
  17. gbaratta

    gbaratta New Member

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    Thanks!

    Thanks for all the great info, I am tempted to try this out, but for this summer I will just try out going solo on my little sloop, and possibly avoid to many strong winds.
     
  18. Solarfry

    Solarfry Member

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    Centerboard Construction

    I was reading SCA and In the Jan/Feb 2009 Small Craft Advisor on page 16 There is an article by Jerry Montgomery That show and discusses how to fair centerboards into an air foil shape.

    You might be able to get a copy from their website.

    If you feel insecure in your first outing try using the mainsail alone. If you get weather helm move forward on the seat to reduce it or rake mast forward a tiny bit.

    If you become a solo sailor try bringing all the halyards into cockpit and near mainsheet block. Slugs on mainsail make it easy to raise and lower sail. You just release main halyard and sail falls down. A string attached to top of jib head lead down to a block on tack and back to cockpit makes it easy to douse (lower) the jib by yourselff. Just pull on the string and it pulls the head down. Some people tie the string to the first slug below the jib head.

    Best
    Solarfry
     

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