Getting T-boned on Port

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by mackconsult, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Having been in a similar situation myself when i was confortably clearing the starboard boat then a windshift when and sent it all awry. Now in my case the SB boat heads up and proceeds to hurl abuse at me. After the race a calmly showed him rule 16.2 which governs right of way boat changing course. He was a little sheepish after that.

    Regardsless of anything else ALL boats are duty bound by COLREGS (which override RRS in some areas) which say a collision should be prevented if it can be.

    So my conclusion...

    The guy on Port was in the wrong and should have taken a penalty (I believe even if it is right on the line you can still take the turns and then re-cross the line, possibly best to make the RO aware of what you have done). The guy on Startboard if he headed up and hit you on the rear quarter was also in the wrong and should also have required (the first word from your mouth should have been Protest, nothing less will suffice or the Protest Committee can throw it out on a technicality). This way when you get ashore you can quite legitimately fill out your protest form, depending on facts found he may be liable for your reapir costs (most insurance companies will not even entertain a blame on damage when racing unless there is a protest).
     
  2. stuck in the 80s

    stuck in the 80s Member

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    Try to avoid contact at all costs, the collision will have cost you time & totally wrecked your concentration probably for the day. The repair you will always see will be your reminder that not everyone thinks on the water the same way you may.
     
  3. mackconsult

    mackconsult Member

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    What ever dude!!!!!

    I didn't say I wasn't in the wrong, but if I got hit for every time I was wrong I would quit this sport.

    I am giving myself a DSQ for that race. I have asked the fleet captain to approach this indivdual about withdrawing from the race. If he doesn't I will file a protest. This is feasible in our club because there is no time windows in the by laws in which to file a protest.

     
  4. mackconsult

    mackconsult Member

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    I did
     
  5. ParkCityLaser

    ParkCityLaser Member

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    Don't hail "tack or cross", it's not a proper hail and it's only going to tick you off when you think you deserve a response and you don't get it from some guy who knows better than to respond to that hail.

    As for your situation, what you can't account for is if this guy thought that heading up, i.e. tacking, was the right thing to do to avoid collision. He may have been just as surprised as you were about the close crossing or maybe he thought you were going to tack for the line (since you said it was at the finish) and he was surprised to see your bow cross his and so he threw the helm over.
     
  6. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Did you ever say protest? Did he say protest? That's the first step before having a hearing. I also believe the RRS states time frames for hearings and/or filings. Your club, (assuming you are in the US) should at least follow the RRS.

    You can always with draw from the race, but don't DSQ yourself. No one can be DSQ'd without a hearing. Sounds like to me he has a case for attempting to avoid the collison by heading up. He could say he was trying to tack.

    That said, you have not answered several questions on the forum regarding the incident so it's impossible to tell how everything went down and/or give any decent advice as there are so many variables in even the most cut and dry protest situations.
     
  7. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I think hailing "tack or cross" is a good tool, but it has no place in the rules. However, there are many times a Starboard tacker will let you cross to keep you from tacking on top of them or giving them a lee bow. If it looks like I can cross very close or with just a small adjustment from the starboard tacker I'll ask "tack or cross?". When I don't get a reply I stick a stinking lee bow on them. There are plenty of times I'll shout for a guy to cross if I don't want them tacking on me...
     
  8. ParkCityLaser

    ParkCityLaser Member

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    Rob

    That's what I was referring to, there is no place in the rules for that hail. You can't take that one to the protest room, I've heard it before, I was in the protest room and the other boat told the Jury that he hailed our boat to tack or cross and we didn't reply, he made it sounds like we broke the rules by not responding. Well, I told our skipper not to reply to it because it opens up a can of worms. We won the protest.

    If you are port and you are sure you can cross and they won't duck you and protest, go for it. If not and you lee bow them, then they deserve to be behind you. It's pretty straightforward.
     
  9. lumpy

    lumpy Member

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    There is a rule that can deal with that issue.

    After reading what you have written here I would suggest your club put together two seminars.

    1 - Rules seminar taught by a senior judge
    http://www.ussailing.org/judges/OfficialsSearch.asp?Official=Judge

    2 - Race management seminar.- http://www.ussailing.org/Calendar/r...lass=&FROM=&WEEK=OFF&TO=&KEYWORD=&byOA=Search
     
  10. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Were I party to that then i would have reported you to your clum commodore (or whatever you have over your side of the pond). There is no place for that kind of conduct in sailing. The rules are there to govern what we can an cant do. There is a rule about fair sailing and being 'sportsmanlike' I blieve it is either Rule 2 or Rule 69 (don;t have a rule book to hand). As this was after the finish you are not governed by these but balling him out in front of everyone when you were on port is wrong even if you had grounds to protest.

    As annoying as a collision is you have to try and keep your head, the boat is insured and will be repaired no matter what the cirucmstances it is just a case of who was right and who was wrong.

    Are you going to clarify some of the questions asked on here? If you were in the wrong why did you not take your penalty? You can still protest even if you take a penaly (just means you cannot be DSQ'd in most circumstances).
     
  11. melges419

    melges419 New Member

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    Sounds to me like he headed up to avoid T-Boning you. A t-bone is 90 degrees and if he headed up it was less of a hit thank goodness. I have headed up many times to avoid collisions or to make them casue less damage. You broke the rules did not protest him properly regardless of time limits and you should be considered for rule 69 for your poor sportsmanship in front of others. Just end it now. And keep away from him when you are on port. By the way, my feeling could be different if you had properly protested him and followed through and had him tossed. Otherwise your story does not hold water.
     
  12. lumpy

    lumpy Member

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  13. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Thinking back on it I had a similar situation a few years ago. I tacked in front of a guy inside the 2 length circle while rounding a weather mark. We had an adverse current that was pushing all boats to weather of the mark. Under the rule you can tack within the 2 length circle so long as the approaching Starboard tack boat does not have to sail above close hauled to avoid you or pass the mark, (of course assuming you do not tack too close and he has to avoid you before your tack is completed). So, I complete my tack and begin to bear away for the mark. He's screaming at me and I look back to see him coming at me on a close reach and he slams, (on purpose) into my stern. Well, I go nuts and while I do not insult him I do let a few non-mentionables slip out along with the "you %$^&**ing sailed straight into me, on a @@#$!!!ing reach and long after I completed my ***$$@!*ing tack. PROTEST!".

    While he attempts to argue back a puff comes in from behind and rolls him right over to weather. I then shout, "A vertical 720 will work just as well!" and I sail off.

    He did cause some minor damage and at the end of the race while we are de-rigging I approach him and offer a beer and an apology for using the bad language. We talk about the incident, (where he admits hitting me on purpose to proove a point) along with a couple of other witnisses and it is concluded he was in the wrong. However, it all went down level headed and we departed much cooler.

    This was a club race and since he went upside down I did not file a formal protest. If I had I think he would have tried the 69 thing on me, (as he mentioned he was upset that I used foul language) but a 69 is difficult to win. If you look at the very few on those that have been handed out over the past few years, (everyone of them is posted on US Sailing because you get banned for 2 years if you get one) you will notice they involved some pretty major stuff like boarding a boat and actually beating on someone!

    Bottom line. Get past it. Talk to the guy and use the incident to grow on. Don't be a punk.
     
  14. lumpy

    lumpy Member

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    They don't publish the warnings that are given out by the locals, PC, etc that many times result in an RAF or a warning from club management or class peer group..

    I n many of these cases it is not the first incident of innaporpriate behavior.
     
  15. mackconsult

    mackconsult Member

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    He was not in the process of tacking. He hit me and spun me around .....

     
  16. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    There is this idiot at our Sailing club. I mistakenly tryed to cross him on Port and didn't make it in my brand new boat. He proceeds to head up and hit me in my quarter section.


    Your last post conflicts with your first. Did he head up or not? Either way I hope you are learning something from what the rest of us are saying here.
     
  17. vtgent49

    vtgent49 Member

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    Actually, I think Rule 2 might be more applicable. This rule is often used/contrued to prevent "intimidation, verbal or otherwise" from being used to improve a finish score and/or win a race or series. This is more obvious when an experienced senior is "swearing" at a junior, presumably less experience racer, or a member of the/a fairer sex etc. The swearer can get tossed, even when he/she was on starboard.

    We encourage the use of the "P" word (Protest), and onshore discussions of a complicated rule situation, as Rob B. describes above. "F" words are discouraged, but happen. Our Juniors, many of whom move on to a very high level of College sailing(5 are on ranked teams), A-Cupping(presently 1, if there is ever another race), Pan Am Games (we have 3 Golds), etc. are nudged to learn that an "F" word can get you tossed at that level, and that protests are both sartisfying, and tactical, and very much a part of the game. And a stream of swearing clouds the brain.

    And yes, the Laser class is famous for setting the standards on both Rule 2 and 69, unfortunately. Google Brodie Cobb if you don't know the story.

    Learn to patch gel coat. It's very easy, and knowing how will make it easier to get your head back in the game quicker.

    "Dude" Al Russell
     
  18. foxy

    foxy Member

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    Been in your exact position and also the other guy's regarding the cross and collision. Its best not to push a close situation and its also a good idea to learn the rules.

    If no time limit is stated in the sailing instructions, rule 61.3 defaults the time to 2 hours after the last boat finishes. Clearly that has elapsed and you can no longer file a protest within the rules.

    I think you also need to re-read rule 14. The right of way boat must avoid a collision if REASONABLY able to do so. 14 b) states that he cannot be penalized unless there is damage. It does not say that he MUST be penalized if there is damage.

    It is up to the protest committee to decide, based on evidence presented, if the right of way boat could or could not avoid the collision. Next time file the protest properly if you feel that someone fouled you.

    From experience, the first reaction when someone appears in your window and its close, the impulse reaction is to jam the tiller down hard. You were definitely in the wrong in this case and its questionable in my mind if the right of way boat acted improperly or not based on what you say.
     
  19. alittlenasty

    alittlenasty New Member

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    erm your fault end of, he went up so you had chance to tack below him, if you push hard dont call people idiots who hit you its part of it, if you chiken out n duck before people will abuse been on boat that that caused a t-bone instead of preventing it
     
  20. Sail4SC

    Sail4SC Member

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    Not avoiding collision can make you look bad in most situations...

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