Getting T-boned on Port

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by mackconsult, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. mackconsult

    mackconsult Member

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    There is this idiot at our Sailing club. I mistakenly tryed to cross him on Port and didn't make it in my brand new boat. He proceeds to head up and hit me in my quarter section. Shouldn't he get DSQed?????

    I am the one who does the scoring and I am giving myself a DSQ for making the mistake, but I am half tempted to give him a DSQ because he could have ducked me and just said protest.
     
  2. Mattcm

    Mattcm Member

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    The fundamental rule in sailing is to avoid collisions, he still has to avoid you even on starboard. He should have ducked your transom and yelled protest.
     
  3. lumpy

    lumpy Member

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    I suggest you start by reading rule 63.1 and then 14
     
  4. Murphs

    Murphs New Member

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    And if he headed up to collide with you, throw rule 16.1 in there for good measure...
     
  5. Kaiser

    Kaiser Member

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    Rules aside - how's the boat? ouch :(
     
  6. lumpy

    lumpy Member

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    From the "facts" given why would 16.1 be involved?
     
  7. Load

    Load New Member

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    It would apply if the contact would not have occurred had the RoW boat not headed up. I'm assuming 181255 had no chance to avoid the contact. If the RoW boat headed up in an attempt to avoid contact, he has breached neither 16.1 nor 14. But it sounds like he was hunting.
     
  8. lumpy

    lumpy Member

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    Without hearing both side it is difficult to sort this out.

    From what 181255 wrote he admitted he did not keep clear prior to the collision. "I mistakenly tried to cross him on Port". So without any additional facts one should not assume "hunting" was involved.

    What I find interesting is that 181255 did not immediately do a penalty turn in this instance and waited until the end of the race to DSQ himself.

    BTW instead of a DSQ it could have been a RAF though a RAF is intended to be used when someone finds out later that they had broken a rule which does not appear to be the case here.
     
  9. dredies

    dredies Member

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    Unfortunately for you, 14(b) comes into play:

    "shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury."

    If he hit you but did not damage the boat and caused no injury, it's just you that scores the DSQ. I know many racers that will give you a light tap in light airs to make sure that you do your turns. I just try to take fewer chances around them :rolleyes:
     
  10. mackconsult

    mackconsult Member

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    This was no light tap. It was "CRUNCH T-BONE"!!!!!

    Light taps happen in overlaps, going around marks or in leeward windward situations. T-Boning causes damage in almost any breeze. My boat was new (194717 I think) and now it has a hunk of gel coat taken out of it.

    You guys should have seen the heated argument after wards where I stood in my boat in front of 20 other sailors swearing up and down at him for hitting me. And he yelled at me saying its your fault for trying to cross me.

    I took the DSQ upon myself while scoring the results because this occurred just before finishing across the line. My mistake was not filing a protest right away with the race committee for him hitting me.
     
  11. mackconsult

    mackconsult Member

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    Well it was new ........
     
  12. Sailingpj

    Sailingpj New Member

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    I don't know about giving him a DSQ, but as to the damages, most races have you sign a waiver that makes it so you have to pay for any damages that happen during the races.
     
  13. dredies

    dredies Member

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    A chunk of gel-coat certainly constitutes damage in my books! Not only did he break rule 14(b), but he should be paying for the repair. That's just not cool.
     
  14. bjmoose

    bjmoose Member

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    Your SIs will state a time limit for filing of protests.

    There's a form that must be followed -- you must say the word "PROTEST!" not "hey!" or "Do your turns" or "that's not cool" or even !@#$#!!!

    And there's a time limit during which a filled out protest form must be submitted to the protest comittee.

    So with none of that done, sounds like water under the bridge.

    That being said, let's analyze solely from your description:

    "I mistakenly tried to cross him on Port and didn't make it ... He proceeds to head up and hit me in my quarter section."

    See the definition in the RRS of "keep clear." From your "didn't make it" it sounds like you as burdened boat did NOT keep clear.

    However, the privileged vessel also has obligations, and may not sail anywhere she chooses. Rule 16.1 speaks to this. As S and P begin to come together, S may change her course any way she chooses, and may use tactical considerations in deciding what to do -- e.g. foot for speed, pinch up to make it more difficult for P to cross cleanly, follow a lift, etc...

    That freedom begins to change as the boats get closer together, and 16.1 begins to apply.

    Let's consider the case where P can cross S cleanly, assuming S holds course. At this point, P is "keeping clear" of S. Now at some point, P will be crossing in front of S's bow; from this position P cannot possibly avoid S should S choose to head up to deliberately hit P. At this point, S's actions are restricted by 16.1. S may not change course to deliberately strike P, when such a move by S would make it impossible for P to avoid S. If S does this, she has broken 16.1.

    Now, the difference between a rule 10 and a rule 16.1 situation can be hard to tell, and in general protest committees will tend to accept S's version of the facts if there's a protest or a collision on a P/S crossing. Too many boats try to "squeek by" on port creating a hazardous condition on the racecourse. So if P knows it will be close, she should either duck early, tack to lee bow S, or ask permission to cross. (Sometimes S will simply wave P on, rather than risk being planted with a tight lee-bow.)

    Based on your description, there's a bit of question about what "actually happened" and if I were in a protest-committee hearing, I'd try to ask some more detailed questions, get some diagrams and models, etc... to try and get a more accurate picture.

    For example, did S actually steer up? Or did she simply roll to windward as she sailed into the lee of your main as you began to cross?

    But based purely on one side of the story and what you've written, I'd expect a protest committee to DSQ both boats, P for violating rule 10, and S for violating both 16.1 and 14.
     
  15. 177102

    177102 New Member

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    There are two trains of though IMHO.

    1. Is the bloke just learning, not real clue but a little bit of information is too much for him knowing he was on starboard. If this was the case and it wasnt a major race, then I would approach him tell him that you could DSQ him fo not avoiding a collision that caused damage and leave it at that.

    2. He knew what he was doing he is not a uselss sailor just a idiot, then DSQ him (and tell him why) and then give him the bill to pay.

    End of the day you need to remember brand new boat or not you were in the wrong for being there. You cant rely on him (or anyone) avoiding you.
     
  16. Sailorchick

    Sailorchick Member

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    Maybe in future ask if you can cross when its close like that. A simple hail of CROSS? usually gets a response of carry on or no you tack. More often than not the person on starboard lets you cross as all you'll do if you tack that close is leebow them anyway.
    There will always be a few people that will never let you cross, learn who they are and that will help you decide what to do when meeting them.
     
  17. Murphs

    Murphs New Member

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    Good luck with trying to get him to foot the bill for the repair..

    You really shouldnt have put yourself in that position to begin with and you were both in the wrong so you should be paying for your own repairs
     
  18. Windglider

    Windglider New Member

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    Well, there are idiots everywhere. In traffic, on the racetracks etc. Hope you learned something!
     
  19. vtgent49

    vtgent49 Member

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    Port is port, new boat or not.

    Protests are clearly defined, so the "scorer" has no option to DSQ anyone because he/she feels like it.

    "Yelling" at starboard? Huh? Sounds foolish to me, and not quite sportsmanlike.

    Bashing starboard on the World Wide Web? real classy.

    Al Russell
     
  20. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    How do you know he saw you in time to do anything? He was heading up when contact was made. Was he trying to crash tack to avoid the collision? Was there any discussion between you and him before contact was made or were you just trying to get across nice and quiet like?

    Where did the contact occur? What were the conditions? If it happened far enough up, (toward the bow) on your boat that would help determine if he had the chance to do an emergency duck or not.

    It's hard to get a Laser to make a BIG duck when it is blowing even for experienced sailors.
     

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