Class Politics Free membership and a $200 annual check>>>

I agree that the current sail is over priced and too short lived, but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as many of you are saying.

Of course a more durable sail for much the same price is a great idea, but there will always be (a lot) of sailors who expect their sails to be bullet proof and wil complain if their ten season old sail isn't as fast as a new one - the Laser class seems to have more than it's fair share of these sailors.

I do a lot of sailing. I tend to buy one new sail for the biggest regatta I'm sailing each year, and most people I sail with do the same. This is then my regatta sail for the next twelve months. Then it becomes my club racing sail for a season. By this time it will have done over 100 races, and is still good enough for another year as a training sail. It probably costs about $2-$3 for each time I go sailing, which is hardly excessive.

The top level olympic aspirants go through a lot more sails, but the cost of this is insignificant compared to the overall cost of their campaigns. Other sailors who think they need to buy a sail more often than every 12-18 months are kidding themselves. The sailors who sail a couple of times a month at their local club and rarely travel anywhere should be getting three or four years life from a sail easily.

Of course if the builders dropped the price of a sail I would be happy. But if the builders are making such huge profits from the sails, why are they allegedly having trouble paying their bills? It has to be one or the other.
 
[FONT=&quot]
The other replica parts that are available could in no way be considered consumable items unlike a sail.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Just my 2p (or 2c)...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And cannot be readily distinguished in many cases.
[/FONT]

Back to the sails

[FONT=&quot]Personally I see the replica parts issue as the start of the collapse of the class. I can understand people using replica sails for training and to a lesser degree club racing. But it's only a matter of time before a district turns around and permits them at their district regattas and eventually there will be pressure to do away with official sails. At the same time other replica parts are infiltrating the fleet. It's only a matter of time then that someone designs something "better" than the official components for the class. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The strength of the class, which has protected and developed the class, maintaining the value of second hand boats etc has been the Fundamental Rule and restricted sources of hulls and components and this is being undermined by the replica parts. The class is going down a slippery slope IMO. Whilst the class may initially benefit from the replica parts (principally the sails), it's weakening what has made the class so strong and reduces the separation between Laser and other class few of which could be considered strong (how many classes at your club that gets a fleet 50% or bigger of the size of the laser fleet?). I'm not saying the class is going to die in the next 5 years, but unless the ILCA and builders do something, the laser fleet is likely to be a fraction of its current size in 20 years time.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The issues I see which are all related
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


  • [FONT=&quot]The ILCA and builders need to address both the durability and cost, principally of the sails and to a lesser extent other components. While I don't mind the current price, the product we're getting doesn't match the cost. A sail that losing it's optimum performance after 20 hours of sailing isn't worth the $A950 ($US850) we're paying.
    [/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Reducing number or at least getting smarter about the changes in the class rules and introduction of new equipment, bringing the class back towards the simple low cost one design principle .
    [/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]The current elitism with its coaching clinics, supports boats etc, has created a situation where there is now a significant gap between the "ordinary club sailor" and those wanting to go to World Championships / Olympics etc which needs to be addressed. Why I see this as being important is because it's the "ordinary club sailors who are the back bone of the class, but they no longer see the benefit of being a class member or sailing with legal equipment because they aren't interested in attending regattas anymore where they sail around the back of the fleet and don't have support boats telling them how to sail whilst handing over their on water diet. Spending 3+ hours on the water when you need to carry everything on your boat is too long and some regattas I've done it's been 11 hours on the water. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] I hope that Tracy really pushes at least the first of these concerns at the next World Council meeting. [/FONT]
 
One more time because most of you don't seem to get the simplicity of my proposal...

or that I am totally against opening up sail supply to anybody who measures...

and in NO WAY did I suggest any of the absurd changes to the fundamental one design so many ofyou seem hell bent on adding to the discussion.

The process is simple.

THE CLASS can decide to certify an additional sailmaker as a supplier of sails for our game. There is a process for doing that.


Therefore...I propose we as a class association certify a sailmaker for providing sails for our game to make sails JUST LIKE those sails we have been purchasing from the builders.

Then the folks who have been adding $400 to the price of each sail as it passes through their hands can decide whether to compete for their market share or drop out of the sail selling business.

If you are concerned about local dealers......I don't think you can do much...You could make the proposal such that the certified sails must be sold by a dealer who lives within some number of miles of the purchaser...of course we have no such rule now for any of the sellers who advertise on this site or in the NA Laser Sailor magazine and I doubt it could be enforced...

Anyway... The ISAF, Olympic Commitees and etc have no voodoo style control over the Laser Class and its rules. If we choose to allow and certify a sailmaler whose sails would be other than BUILDER SUPPLIED..that would simply become the new Laser class game.

The world championships and Olympics will always be contested in supplied toys so ISAF and the Olympic Committee would not have a dog in the fight.

The way I see it, there is no special effort or expense the clas members or our officers would encounter to make such a proposal.

The call goes like this:

"Hello mr sailmaker. I represent the North American Laser Class. Our executive commitee has appointed me to find a sailmaker who is capable of supplying sails for our game. We are interested in certifying a suplier who would supply sails directly to dealers and mail order supliers without first selling their product to the builders. Our goal is to keep our one design game as pure as possible so the sails you supply would have to be as equal as possible to those currently being supplied by the Builders. Are you interested in discussing this??"

and so forth...

The winning sailmaker would be the one who not only wants the job but who would be willing to supply the manpower and funds necessatry to work through the approval process.

I will go a step further...Why not make "sailmaker liason" a position on the NA Class executive commitee??

Summary:

no different sails
one non builder supplier
tight controls
and MOST IMPORTANT!!!! The builders would no longer be allowed to change their sails without the advance approval of the Class and it's approved sailmaker.

I buy and sail laser because they are the most fun for the buck.

I do not buy and sail lasers to enrich some guy who has figured out he can charge whatever the hell he pleases
 
OK, here's a thinker.

It seems there are two markets for Laser sailors. There are Olympic campaigners and elite sailors who travel to major regattas. They go through many sails a season and already have a large sailing budget to pay for travel. They obviously use class legal sails and are able to pay the premium price.

On the other hand, you have many club level sailor. They sail at their local lake, and maybe travel to a couple of out-of-town regattas per year. The might buy a new sail every other season. The cost of a class-legal sail is a significant portion of their sailing budget, so the low-cost knock-off sails become attractive.

I don't know the number of sails sold and am speculating at this point, but I'm guessing the elite sailors are the bulk of the market for class legal sails. They provide a large market for $600 short-life sails, giving the builder little incentive to offer a more durable alternative at a better price.

This leads me to wonder - if the Laser class were not an Olympic class, would the sail situation have evolved to its current state?
 
---snip---
Of course if the builders dropped the price of a sail I would be happy. But if the builders are making such huge profits from the sails, why are they allegedly having trouble paying their bills? It has to be one or the other.

No it doesn't - there are many ways to burn through cash, not to mention that LP has to have the largest product line of any boat builder that I can recall, and perhaps profits from Lasers are propping up some of the other products..
 
No it doesn't - there are many ways to burn through cash, not to mention that LP has to have the largest product line of any boat builder that I can recall, and perhaps profits from Lasers are propping up some of the other products..

Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner. If you mismanage your brand by diluting yor product line too much the overhead required to build 20 different boats, (of which only 3-5 really sell) compared to a slimmed down "core" product line will kill you. It's called assets and liabilities. Take a look at GM and how much they've trimmed down the product line and are now actually turning a profit.
 
e) yet still addresses the core problems with the standard sail, in particular produces a sail that people think is worth the money they are spending on it.

This is the core of the issue.

People will pay for a product that lasts.
 
Not everyone agrees with that point of view. The builder/dealers who are holding inventory would, but any sailor who only has an older rag (I guess we can say anything more then 4 regattas old) it shouldn't matter one bit

In a way, that thinking just keeps us stuck in the 1970's

The sails do not wear out as quickly as lots on here would try to make us all believe.

I raced yesterday at my club with a sail that is about 3 years old. It did 2 seasons of regattas/opens before becoming my club sail. I'll still use if for the odd open if need be as it still goes well. In the race yesterday I finished 1st radial and 2nd laser (3rd on the water but got the guy in front on handicap). The 2 full rigs are both good sailors (the leader was top 10 at the nationals last year and he wasn't miles ahead, just too far for my handicap allowance, and the guy in second place is no slouch either). One of the other radials is attending the masters worlds this year so again is not slow. If the sails are soo bad I should have no chance of competing against these guys.

My sails usually last me about 4 years before I bin them. 2 years regatta use and the another 2 years club/training use. Yes they are absolutely knackered by the end of this but I don't expect any sail to last longer than that the amount I use them.
 
Sailorchick, radial sails are significantly more robust then the standard sails.
 
The sails do not wear out as quickly as lots on here would try to make us all believe.


My sails usually last me about 4 years before I bin them. 2 years regatta use and the another 2 years club/training use. Yes they are absolutely knackered by the end of this but I don't expect any sail to last longer than that the amount I use them.


Hello... RADIAL!... Completely different animal.
 
We should explain why it's so different.

I suspect it's from the way the panels are cut and sown together. The way the threads run allows the loads to be transferred better which decreases the amount of deformation that occurs to them over a period of time. In addition, the radial sail requires less cunningham, vang and mainsheet tension than the standard sail to obtain a good sail shape. It's probably part of the reason why a least one of the prototype standard sails has a radial cut.
 
We should explain why it's so different.

I suspect it's from the way the panels are cut and sown together. The way the threads run allows the loads to be transferred better which decreases the amount of deformation that occurs to them over a period of time. In addition, the radial sail requires less cunningham, vang and mainsheet tension than the standard sail to obtain a good sail shape. It's probably part of the reason why a least one of the prototype standard sails has a radial cut.

I saw the full sized radial cut prototype and really liked it! Can anyone estimate how much longer it's gonna be until the class gets to vote on a new sail?
 
I saw the full sized radial cut prototype and really liked it! Can anyone estimate how much longer it's gonna be until the class gets to vote on a new sail?

Never, it's not an issue that the class votes on, we only vote on changes to the class rules and not changes to the technical specifications. As long as the technical committee / World Council (and now ISAF) approve it, the builders can change the sails when ever they wish from my understanding. It's doubtful that any change will occur until after the next Olympics, but I don't think a change would have a significant impact even 12 months out.
 
Isn't it amazin how some of those who ahve posted above just brush off "nothing until after the Olympics" as though there is more than one sailor in every country who is impacted by the shape of the Olympic sail??

Gues what fellow Laserforum readers...

YOU Are not invited to sial in the Olympics!!!

AND

You never will be invited.

The Olympics is ONE REGATTA and that ONE regatta is not even open for our Laser Class members

The Olympic committees decide who goes...not us.

The olympic committee restricts entry to one per country and only for those countries that qualify to participate.

laser sailing is for everybody.

Screw that Olympic crap.

Let's worry about OUR game!!!

If the Olympic guys want to have an event in the same kind of boats we sail..fine. But let's not, for the sake of their one stinkin' regatta with limited entries, held only every 1460 days, let them have any control over our game.
 
Isn't it amazin how some of those who ahve posted above just brush off "nothing until after the Olympics" as though there is more than one sailor in every country who is impacted by the shape of the Olympic sail??

I have to admit, I thought it was kind of cool many years ago when the Laser was first selected as an Olympic class. Now there are times I kind of wish it would just go away.
 
isn't it amazin how some of those who ahve posted above just brush off "nothing until after the olympics" as though there is more than one sailor in every country who is impacted by the shape of the olympic sail??

Gues what fellow laserforum readers...

You are not invited to sial in the olympics!!!

And

you never will be invited.

The olympics is one regatta and that one regatta is not even open for our laser class members

the olympic committees decide who goes...not us.

The olympic committee restricts entry to one per country and only for those countries that qualify to participate.

Laser sailing is for everybody.

Screw that olympic crap.

Let's worry about our game!!!

If the olympic guys want to have an event in the same kind of boats we sail..fine. But let's not, for the sake of their one stinkin' regatta with limited entries, held only every 1460 days, let them have any control over our game.


+1
 
I agree with your comments Gouvernail, but unfortunately the sailors were never really consulted over the issue and now we're sort of stuck with the consequences. I've had this conversation with Jeff Martin and the others powers that be, they just can't see the Olympics as being detrimental to the class. They see the growth of the class from the perspective of aspiring Olympians, youth development etc, rather than the collapse of club sailing. Personally, I'd be quite happy to see not only the Laser dropped from the Olympics but sailing as well.
 
I don't know about detrimental but I cannot see how being an Olympic class helps the class. Hardly anybody is going to buy a Laser because we are an Olympic class and the few who do are so much better than anybody else it makes no difference.

If it is something that impacts the class so much, why were the membership not consulted ?
Did the ISAF ask the Laser Class or just chose us on their without consultation ?
Why should we all suffer for the sake of a few elite sailors ?
Why can't the Olympics stick with old sails (they buy a stock now) and we will get a new one ?

I really don't understand why the class cannot just ignore the Olympics and focus on those people who are out on the water every weekend. And from the builders perspective, introduce a new sail at the same price as the old one with the same performance and they would see loads of people rush to buy one whatever the state of their current sail (= $$$ in the bank).

Or better still, given that the UK is totally broke and the costs of the Olympics is making things a lot worse (you should see the public spending cuts we are enduring here with lots more to come - health service, police force, military, social service, the lot) - lets scrap the Olympics and all go sailing instead.

Ian
 
Never, it's not an issue that the class votes on, we only vote on changes to the class rules and not changes to the technical specifications. As long as the technical committee / World Council (and now ISAF) approve it, the builders can change the sails when ever they wish from my understanding. It's doubtful that any change will occur until after the next Olympics, but I don't think a change would have a significant impact even 12 months out.

Well I think that's stupid. We've been dicking around w/this sail crap for years! Why hold up the rest of the class from getting something EVERYONE wants onother 2 years for a 30-40 boat elite fleet race? Let us mortals get on with it and keep 200 or so of the older design sails on the shelf for the olympic contenders.
 
I honestly think that changes should come as they are ready, independent of the Olympic cylce. If those who eventually end up at the Olympics are supposed to be the best, then they should be able to manage learning a new sail at any point. Further, as a one-design class, if a new sail became available to everyone at the same time, the game would still be one-design. Everyone competing would have had the opportunity to sail with the new sail for the same amount of time, which in my opinion would even further level the playing field.

And isn't a level playing field the intention of a one-design class anyway?

If a new sail could be designed with improved durability, without improved performance, then all us old school sailors wouldn't have obsolete equipment.
 

Back
Top