Fixing things

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by iped, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. iped

    iped New Member

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    If I use the same hull number and the rest of the rigging ect,and made A plug out of my old laser ,to make A new hull and deck would that be a repair or A new Boat
     
  2. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    It would be a new boat and either way it wouldn't be class legal because it's not builder supplied. It also violates the patent. That said, it is amazing how many talented and creative people there are around here.
     
  3. Laser76489

    Laser76489 Member

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    Yes if you find a way to make that class legal I have 2 old hulls that are in need of "repair" With that train of thought no new boats would ever be sold but there would be plenty of "repaired" hulls for sale and they would all look brand new.
     
  4. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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  5. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    The question is about whether iped can repair his boat. It is his toy. He can do whatever he wants with it.

    (It is not about manufacturing and selling something he represents as a Laser. He can build, for himself, all the boats he wants to. They can be any shape and design he chooses to build.
    The problems and lawyers and restraining orders and lawsuits and general ugliness comes when he tries to sell his look alike creations.)


    Can he race his toy as a Class legal Laser by describing the entire boat as a "repair?"

    The Laser Class rules describe what is considered to be a legal repair.

    "Repairs and preventive maintenance to the sail, hull, deck, centreboard, rudder, mast, boom, or any fittings and fixings may be carried out without violation of these Rules provided such repairs are made in such a way that the essential shape, characteristics or function of the original are not affected."

    Clearly the rules allow the repair the gentleman is proposing. His challenge will be to acomplish the repair within the rules.

    Also, the challenge for the other competitors, who have no access to the super triple secret builders manual, will be to determine whether the repair is a legal one.

    Personally? I would have done this years ago but I cannot bring myself to knowingly repair something without addressing the original cause of the failure. If I were to build myself a laser that would not wear out just as fast as any Laser, my laser would not be a Laser.

    Tinkering and improving sailboats so they work better is what I do and what I am. Rebuilding as failed is just is not fun for me. So I have decided long ago not to try.

    Iped will be spending a lot of money and time to create his repaired sailboat. If he is skilled enough and has the right materials available, he may still have a Laser when he is finished.

    My take? There are better ways to spend time and money and some of those ways lead to Laser racing.
     
  6. Chris123

    Chris123 New Member

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    A good question, and a very old one.
    The first recorded instance comes around 2000 years ago, and is usually attributed to Plutarch. For more info, look up the "Ship of Theseus". Other relevant buzzwords are "Persistence of Identity"

    Laser sailing, meet classical philosophy. Classical philosophy, Laser sailing.

    Here is a summary.
     
  7. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "make a plug" means. I thought the poster was asking about using his old Laser hull to build a mold for another Laser hull. That doesn't sound like a "repair" to me, but a replacement. It isn't a "Ship of Theseus" as he is not replacing the fiberglass and such on the original boat. I also maintain that it isn't legal, even if he doesn't try to sell it, but a-hem--he'd have to get caught. If I have the meaning of "make a plug" wrong, then all of this is moot.
     
  8. Rob E

    Rob E Member

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    Since the laser was invented in 1970, any patent for it must have expired many years ago. Patents are only good for 20 years (in the US and most WTO countries).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_patent
     
  9. whitfit

    whitfit Member

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    I'm pretty sure it would actually be a copyright, not a patent. It isn't an invention, but it is a design. So, the copyright will exist for a long time - at least the life of the author.
     
  10. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    A copyright lasts the life of the author +70 years, but I'm pretty sure a Laser doesn't have a copyright. The stuff below is from the US copyright office. It points out that devices are not protected by copyright.

    I didn't think about the length of a patent being so short, so since any patent has expired, it is legal to make a Laser from a mold made from the old hull. :D It's just not class legal.

    What Works Are Protected?


    Copyright protects “original works of authorship” that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:
    1. <LI type=1>literary works;
    2. musical works, including any accompanying words
    3. dramatic works, including any accompanying music
    4. pantomimes and choreographic works
    5. pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
    6. motion pictures and other audiovisual works
    7. sound recordings
    8. architectural works
    These categories should be viewed broadly. For example, computer programs and most “compilations” may be registered as “literary works”; maps and architectural plans may be registered as “pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works.”
    What Is Not Protected by Copyright?


    Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:
    • Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)
    • Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents
    • Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration
    • Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)
     
  11. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    trademark..copyright...I am certain Chip can tell all of us.
    The reality remains. It would cost more to build one boat just like a real Laser than to buy one. So, unless the builder of the personal boat intended to build multiple boats and somehow try to sell them..It is pointless.
    and of coures building counterfeit lasers and selling them as Lasers would be really terrifically stupid...as Chip could also help you understand

    So...

    Why spend more money and effort to get something
    when by definition it has to be "exactly the same?"
     
  12. Chris123

    Chris123 New Member

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    You are, of course, right. But I just thought the original question begged for the "ship of Theseus" answer
     
  13. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    It is cool! As I was reading it I thought about the same thing happening to people.
     
  14. sorosz

    sorosz Member

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    WOW, ancient history/philoshophy in Lasers. That just shows how important Laser sailing really is to the world!

    But on fixing/replacing things I think it would be kind of cool if there was a way to do a "concept" Laser. Such concept lasers could perhaps show the way for changes in the class in the next 20, 30 or more years. Maybe an all carbon fiber hull, identical in shape and size but much lighter and stifffer and stonger could be the Laser of the future. Helps solve Global Warming too! Or, God help us, a rotomolded plastic Laser or some material/process that maybe hasn't even been invented yet. . . how about a nano-machine made Laser? It comes in a plastic bag, you just add water and presto-chango the nano-machines create a Laser before your very eyes. Saves a fortune on shipping costs.

    They could trot out the concept boats at the big, major regattas for everyone to check out and after a decade or two (or more) of people kvetching about "if it's at all different, then it's not a Laser. . ." or "I don't want to be forced to buy _______ just to stay competitive. . ." there might be a class vote on a change and we move on into the future.

    It would be pretty cool. Hopefully these discussions are archived well enough so when they're celebrating the Laser's 100th anniversary everone can tell what visionaries we all were! ;-)
     
  15. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    I have to ask, how would making one hull (or 100,000 for that matter) out of carbon fiber "solve" global warming?
     
  16. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    The purchaser / owner of that boat would have a resulting empty wallet with which he could not buy gasoline, heating oil, or even charcoal for a barbecue and therefore he would not burn any hydrocarbons
     
  17. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    RE: Empty Wallet

    I knew there had to be a reason :D
     

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