Feedback from Master's Sailors sought!

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by SFBayLaser, Feb 7, 2006.

  1. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    I would not mind seeing #1 tried in perhaps a few events. However, #2 has to stay out! That opens up the upwind pumping and would be totally bad! I think the Boathouse stated that upwind pumping does not help in breeze over 15. At 210 lbs I beg to differ. If I were in enough shape to do sit ups through an entire 1 mile upwind leg, (or even half mile) few would be able to keep up w/me in a 15+ breeze.

    The ONLY reason I'm open to the possibility of #1 is to show Fred I can consider new things!
     
  2. Rob B

    Rob B Active Member

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    Whoops. Better reading of Tracy's first post shows upwind pumping is not open in this idea. After my second read I would agree to try this system at an event. (I can just see Fred smiling ear to ear).
     
  3. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Well, I guess I have waited long enough to see if more info was forthcoming, it's doesn't appear to be.

    I'm all for trying the change. I also wish it including ooching on the offwind legs - not much use in flat water, but in 3'+ waves being able to slide forward and back to throw the boat down a wave works well in conjunction with rocking and pumping...

    I'm for trying since I am one of the younger heavyweights and work out, alot. There have been numerous races where I have felt handcuffed by the current rule 42 and know from previous expierences when the rules were different that a few more pumps and/or rocking would get me planing or surfing or keep me from falling off a ride. I believe this may help me somewhat to maintain my upwind advantage, which currently is negated on the offwind legs simply because someone is lighter.

    I also think this will help those that play by the rules, no longer will we have to concern ourselves with enforcement.
     
  4. SFBayLaser

    SFBayLaser Member

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    Yes, I am also still waiting for the people who really started this to come out with their arguments! I suppose their defense is that right now they are down in Florida in Master's heaven... Hopefully we will hear something from them after MWE (since I believe they will all stay down there through then).
     
  5. fishingmickey

    fishingmickey Member

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    Hello Ya'll,
    Here's my two cents worth.... I started sailing Lasers late also at 43. Also I am on the heavy end of the weight spectrum. I just finished watching the final race from the Miami OCR regatta on video (TP2tv). I noticed all of the body movement at the start, these guys are "working the boat very hard" using kinetics going upwind in heavy air 20-25 mph I think. It sures looks like border line illegal to me.
    I been sailing hard now for approximately two and a half years and have witnessed numerous incidents of rocking while going downwind, being in the back of the fleet gives you a very good perspective of whats happening up in the middle and sometimes front of the fleet. Not all of the sailors rock their boats excessively, there is the same few that seem to do it more then most. I'm new to the Laser game so I don't scream about it.
    I'm starting my third full season sailing in D-15 and I'm all for seeing and trying new ideas to see how they'll work or not work. Hopefully with more time in the Laser I'll start moving further up the fleet. I have some great moments of brilliance but am not able to hold my position for long periods of time during a race. This I believe is due to boat handling and bad moves tactically more so then my weight. I have the same issue's as Rob does, I can do well in heavy air over 15 and in light air. It is those medium almost planing conditions (for me) that kill me.
    So my philosphy is what the heck... I'd love to have an extra pump or two to get my boat on a plane, and like "The Gouv" says when I'm planing I'm having a blast regardless of where I'm at in the fleet.
    I'd be willing to bet there are others out there like me also.
    Best regards,
    Fishingmickey
    150087/181157
     
  6. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    He he ho ho har ha ha ha chuckle yuk yuk yuk gag choke wheeze pant ho ho ho ha ha ha ha cough har de har ho ho ho ha ha ha chuckle yuk yuk yuk gag choke wheeze pant ho ho ho ha ha ha ha cough ha ho he he he giggle he he he hp ho ha har ha ho he yuk yuk ho ho he he ha yuk wheeze he he ho yuk yuk he he ho ho har de har ho ho ho ha ha ha chuckle yuk yuk yuk gag choke wheeze pant ho ho ho ha ha ha ha cough ha ho he he he giggle he he he hp ho ha har ha ho he yuk yuk ho ho he he ha yuk wheeze ho ho har de har ho ho ho ha ha ha chuckle yuk yuk yuk gag choke wheeze pant ho ho ho ha ha ha ha cough ha ho he he ho yuk yuk har de har ho ho ho ha ha ha chuckle yuk yuk yuk gag choke wheeze pant ho ho ho ha ha ha ha cough ha ho he he he giggle he he he hp ho ha har ha ho he yuk yuk ho ho he he ha yuk wheeze he he ho yuk yuk he he ho ho har de har ho ho ho ha ha ha chuckle yuk yuk yuk gag choke wheeze pant ho ho ho ha ha ha ha cough ha ho he he he giggle he he he hp ho ha har ha ho he yuk yuk ho ho he he ha yuk wheeze ho ho har de har ho ho ho ha ha ha chuckle yuk yuk yuk gag choke wheeze pant ho ho ho ha ha ha ha cough ha ho he he ho yuk yuk..

    Thanks. That was the best giggle fit I've had in a long time. It is almost 1 am here and I just finally got the boat we started pulling out at 9 am into the yard and unhitched. The first thing on my computer was this post. Thanks. I really needed that!!!

    Also...I am mostly monitoring the comments only for one reason.

    If too many people actually are opposed to the idea of opening up the kinetics rules a bit and if they are as offended at the concept as it seems...The social cost simply may not be worth it.

    Currently, the feedback indicates to me that if I were the current Laser god of all rules I would play the conservative advocate and decide to stay with the current rules.

    It is unfortunate if it comes to that..says me...but if people are so wound up they would actually rather quit than even try sailing under any test rules what so ever...I would rather back off than lose a portion of the fleet over something that in my mind would change the game very little ...

    Note: This does not mean I would be happy to stagnate with rules pendulum in what I consider to be a bad position...But sailing careers are long and in another 20 years maybe somebody will write and successfully implement another set of new rules which I find more tolerable.
     
  7. Michelle

    Michelle New Member

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    So what's to keep us from trying this new modification to the rule at some regattas somewhere,at some wavy/windy venue, and see what happens? Somehow I think the world will not end, and we probably won't be able to settle the debate about whether the extra pumps will benefit the strong or the weak or the big or the small, either. The change seems less radical than the fairly recent change to Masters rules to allow for rig swapping within a regatta.
     
  8. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Member

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    What will stop us? Well, it seems that the RRS have something to say.

    Rule 86.1 (b) says sailing instructions may not change a rule listed in 86.1 (a). And rule 42 is listed in 86.1 (a). So SIs cannot change rule 42.

    On the other hand rule 86.1 (c) says class rules may change rule 42. But from what I remember it's a pain in the ass to change class rules requiring a vote of the members and ISAF approval.

    However further down in rule 86 there is a statement that "US Sailing prescribes that proposed rules may be tested but only in local races". So I guess we could try this proposal as long as it's only a "local" race in the US whatever that means. Presumably not a regional or national masters championship?

    Somebody please tell me if I have this wrong. I don't pretend to be a rules expert.
     
  9. Cindy Taylor

    Cindy Taylor Member

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    I don't think that this rule will help my racing, but I do think that the display of the flag should be accompanied by a sound, like when the course is changed. You know you are talking about a bunch of older sailors with bad eyesight :).

    Now, what can we do to help the light weights sail up the windward leg on a windy day?

    Cindy
     
  10. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    Throw up the radial... :D

    I'd would ask, what can we do to help the heavy weights on a light air day ;)
     
  11. Cindy Taylor

    Cindy Taylor Member

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    Well, I do use a Radial and get overpowed in that too.
     
  12. wjsymes

    wjsymes New Member

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    OK Tracy, here goes:

    After reviewing the feedback, I'm ready to vote for the proposal. I think we do need to nail down some particulars, like which regattas will use the new test rule and how we will evaluate the test and decide on the future of the rule. I suggest both Masters Nationals and Masters PCCs would be appropriate test sites, as both are likely to be heavy air venues (SF Bay and the Gorge). Other suggestions?

    I'm frankly surprised by some of the passions this issue raised. I really doubt that turning off Rule 42 is going to result in an outbreak of cheating on the race course. First of all, as others have pointed out, radical kinetics doesn't gain you much when the breeze is on. Second, the rule as it is currently applied seems to actually discourage good Laser sailing, and take a lot of the fun out of it, by restricting certain natural reactions to wind and wave conditions (that second pump to get on a wave, a quick lean to windward to pressure up the rig). I, for one, would prefer to see Rule 42 turned off by default, and turned on only for winds under 12 or so.

    If I'm wrong, the test should confirm it, and we can go back to the old ways.

    A bigger concern, to me, is the effect this will have on race committees, who already have enough headaches. I worry that this adds another layer of complexity to running races and could make hosting a major Laser regatta even less attractive than it already is.

    Whatever we do, it's very important that we keep it simple and clear.

    Bill
     
  13. Michelle

    Michelle New Member

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    We get to use a Finn rig in anything under 10.
     
  14. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    If a svelte fair damsel like you gets to use a Finn rig, do I get to use an E Scow main??
     

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