European Boats

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by I break things, Aug 9, 2007.

  1. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    One thing I was told when purchased mine late last year was that the coloured topside boats were slightly heavier than the single colour boats. In the UK virtually all boats are one colour (light grey) but they occasionally build a batch of a colour. When collecting mine I had assumed it would not be a good colour so ordered the normal plain. When arriving at the factory the colour of the coloured topside boats was actually quite good and I was considering. I was told that the way they have to lay the gelcoat/glass and the manufacturing process for the coloured topsides is slightly different and the boats come out a few Kg heavier.

    I was told this by PSC at their warehouse. I have no idea about its truth, just repeating what I was told. Either way, I'm happy with the one I got.

    Of course, if the weight thing was true it would apply equally to US and European boats.

    What made me think of this was that I have the impression that coloured topside boats are more common in the US than Europe.

    Ian
     
  2. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Member

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    What about Australian boats? Are they better than American boats?
     
  3. bel120343

    bel120343 New Member

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    European Champion Laser RAdial Evi van Acker sails an aussie boat, and i heard her say once when she came back from miami how glad she was to sail her uk boat again, a month later she switched to ausie boats. so i guess there must be a difference
     
  4. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Member

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    So you are saying that Evi thinks that Aussie boats are better than UK boats which are better than US boats?

    How much better I wonder? If some entrepeneur wanted to import some better Aussie or UK boats into the US, what kind of premium would people be willing to pay? $1000? $2000?
     
  5. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Just look at the existing difference in cost between UK and US: US around $5300 (race spec.), UK $8059. That is $2759 premium before you have paid for shipping, some profit for whoever does it, etc.

    That said, if we are paying an extra $2759 per boat in the UK I would hope they were better :D:D

    Ian
     
  6. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Hi,
    In 2006 I have asked about the difference between hulls of PSE compared to those of Vanguard Inc. an expert (former owner of Laser USA 134145). In result, it seems the gunwale (hull-to-deck joint) of the PSE hulls is a lot weaker (thinner) than that of the Vanguard hulls. PSE use much glue and not enough glass. And also: Also it seems, that the PSE hulls have a much higher glass to resin ratio to the point of being too dry. A damaged Vanguard hull that stayed exposed to the conditions for a full year would appear as "dry and brittle" as a PSE hull damaged yesterday....

    However, it would be great, if all the Laserites of TLF that join the races of Roses/ESP would be so kind, to share, here later on, their experience they have with the hulls of PSE compared to those of their continent (NA, AUS/NZL, JPN, South America), related to the question of differences (f.e. stiffness), thanks.


    To the different costs, compared between NA-hulls and PSE-hulls is to say, that one has to add the costs of border-tax/duty that are to add to the cost of shipping a vanguard hull to Europe. The US$ went down, too - so, there is no realisic relation to compare simple the both cost for those hulls in US$.

    No doubt, a monopoly-company like PSE (or Vanguard before) get their profit, anyway. I am not sure, if several others (Trademark owners, inverntors, ISAF) additional do earn also with that deal. However, one aspect is realistic for me allways: For the most sailors of us not the technical equipment is the reason for the success at racing, but: the personal ability of sailing, tactic's/ race-strategy, athletic ability and knowledge of the specific's of the area the races are hold.

    Ciao
    LooserLu
     
  7. I break things

    I break things New Member

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    Ok maybe my coach wasn't right about a laser being lighter but i still believe the European boats are better made. They can be the same weight yet also be stiffer than american boats. Which makes them move faster which might have led my coach to beleive they were lighter! Im a genius.... only kidding
     
  8. I break things

    I break things New Member

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    Ok maybe my coach wasn't right about a laser being lighter but i still believe the European boats are better made. They can be the same weight yet also be stiffer than american boats. Which makes them move faster which might have led my coach to beleive they were lighter! Im a genius.... only kidding!
     
  9. I break things

    I break things New Member

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    Ok maybe my coach wasn't right about a laser being lighter but i still believe the European boats are better made. They can be the same weight yet also be stiffer than american boats. Which makes them move faster which might have led my coach to beleive they were lighter! Im a genius.... only kidding
     
  10. I break things

    I break things New Member

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    Ok maybe my coach wasn't right about a laser being lighter but i still believe the European boats are better made. They can be the same weight yet also be stiffer than american boats. Which makes them move faster which might have led my coach to beleive they were lighter! Im a genius.... only kidding!!!
     
  11. I break things

    I break things New Member

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    srry for all the copies
     
  12. I break things

    I break things New Member

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    well LooserLu im speachless but i think your rite you have more info on it than me
     
  13. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Member

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    I suspect that in Roses we will all be sailing European boats. The Europeans will bring their own, and those of us from other continents will be using charter boats from Europe.

    That's why it's so tough to get objective information on the differences between the boats made on different continents. The top guys get some experience sailing the boats on different continents and form their subjective opinions. But I doubt there's ever been a regatta where you could really assess the performance of the US, UK and Australian boats side by side.
     
  14. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Which actually raises an important aspect to the debate - does it matter if European boats are stiffer/faster/whatever. If the two (or 3 if you include Aus boats) never actually race against each other, then nobody has any competitive advantage and everybody is racing on equal equipment, equal basis so it is still very true to the One Design concept.

    Given that any differences are minor (same shape, same weight, same materials, same design, etc.) they can all be Lasers and the fact that due to the nature of the world (or rather shipping costs) they never meet means everybody can be happy.

    Ian
     
  15. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Old Geezer,
    "things go deeper". All I know PSE changed the hull construction, I guess in the beginning of the 90ties. A Laserite of GER had a special selfmade roof rack for his car, where his old PSE hull has been perfect balanced on it. He got a new hull of PSE. But first time he car topped this hull, this hull was out of balance at that roof rack. The reason only can be: the center of weight of the new hull is not the same compared to the old hull. This means: newer PSE hulls have "more weight" at different areas of the hull compared to an old hull of PSE. The total weight of the hulls not have changed. But we supose, at the bow of the newer hulls there is less wrought fibreglass/resin than at the areas behind of the cockpit. At the old 46438 I owned, the side-walls at the bow have been stiffer than at my newer 171442. At that areas one can dent the walls at the newer hull, but doing the same at the old hull it not has ben possible easy to dent the walls. Do we have one designed hulls, hm?? Next aspect of view: mast fall. For a long time the mast-fall at PSE hulls has been a criteria to measure a hull to be fast or slow. Now PSE uses a jig/template to guarantee that all their hulls have the same mastfall to forward/back. But do we only see new hulls of PSE at the races? By the way, I guess PSE not use jig/templates for the mast fall to the sides ... What do we have to proove at the store before we pay a new hull, hm??
    I am also not sure about this aspect: "Do common Laserites get the best boats?" All I know, it's just a hearsay, there are specialists of the several national sailing federations, that choose (and before measure everything) hulls (and also: sails, foils, spars) for the pro team of their nation, if the new Laser-stuff come from PSE to the stores. The only way to get such a fast hull is: to buy one from a pro and hope this pro not used this hull much (my 171442 is such a hull :) ).

    So, for me, there ARE differences between hulls, even if one only compare PSE hulls. But, there is hope. At real big events, such as Olympic races, all hulls (and also: sails, foils, spars) are preselected by the organizer and the out-of-the-boat-box-builder themself.

    Cheers
    LooserLu
     
  16. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    But, do we know that Vanguard did not make the same changes at the same time ?


    Ian
     
  17. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Member

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    One thing that confuses this issue is that, as Lu points out, there is variation in the boats from any given single manufacturer. If you've ever visited one of the factories you will know that making a Laser is largely a manual process. So there's going to be some manufacturing variations from boat to boat, worker to worker, day to day, however hard the manufacturer tries to make the process consistent. Then, as Lu also suggests, the manufacturer may change the process slightly over time. I do know that Vanguard (and I assume PSE) do various tests on the boats as they are made (e.g. weight) to keep track of variations and aim for consistency. But the boats from one factory are not going to be exactly identical. I also know from talking to a dealer that he sees variations in the boats and will pick out a "good boat" for someone he knows is a serious racer. (I'm pretty sure that's not sales BS. I was not in the market for a boat when I was told this.) So if Joe-schmo goes to Europe and sails a boat that he feels is stiffer than his own US boat what does it prove? He might have got lucky and been allocated a European boat that's stiffer than an average European boat.

    Deimos asks does it matter if the boats vary from continent to continent as generally we all race against boats from our own continent? Well, yes it does matter. If I knew for sure that Australian boats for example were lighter, stiffer and faster than US boats, and some enterprising person had imported a container load of boats from Australia and was offering them for sale in the US, then I might be tempted to pay a bit more and buy an Aussie boat. How much more? I don't know. How much more would you pay for a guaranteed faster Laser?
     
  18. bel120343

    bel120343 New Member

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    In the netherlands and belgium the topsailors get aussie boats imported, and ship them of to mayor regatta's Evi's (Van Acker) boat is now in a container for the testregatta in china. Pieter jan Postma now finn sailor once tested boats in australia to get the best ones shipped to holland.
    once and a while we see a vanguard hull, mostly imported by somebody moving from usa to europe.
     
  19. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    A '96 boat that I bought for fleeting building had a slightly different shaped bow than my '03, so a change was made along the way. I sold the boat, but from what I recall, the '03 is more slender, or "pointier," and slightly longer. The differences were great enough not to be from day to day variation. I thought at the time that there must have been a mold change in Vanguard boats.
     
  20. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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