Bottleport reviewed by Tillerman

Discussion in 'Laser Talk' started by hdco1313, Oct 20, 2008.

  1. knot_moving

    knot_moving Member

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    Why would you go through the trouble and expense of installing a 2nd inspection port ring on the inside instead of just using a washer? Are you intending to just use screws into the inside port ring?
     
  2. hdco1313

    hdco1313 New Member

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    Because I'm lousy with inspection ports. And it will be strong enough to hang by a hook from the hole as my "winter storage method."

    Joking aside, I think it was just a conversation that progressed from your helpful washer suggestion above that is, no doubt, a good idea. If I used the port ring idea it would probably be with bolts and locknuts.
     
  3. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Just giving a heads up for anyone doing regattas.

    Following discussions between Jean-Luc and myself, I can advise you that the Bottleport is currently illegal with respect to the Laser Class rules.

    There is however preliminary talk about amending the class rules to permit it, but those changes will probably not occur for another 12 months at the earliest.
     
  4. hdco1313

    hdco1313 New Member

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    Hi Alan,

    Thanks for taking a look at the Bottleport and considering it under the ILCA rules. Are you available offline to discuss? Would be great to ask you some questions. I'm at greg@bottleport.com if you want to send me an email or other contact info.

    Best regards,

    Greg Little (inventor of Bottleport)
     
  5. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Email reply sent Greg.
     
  6. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    ...Bottleport is currently illegal...

    Alan D, with all respect to your person, why is it not permitted, please would you be so kind explain more exact. BTW: I am only one of the 194000, but I pay my fee to the ILCA and ISAF allways accurate, may I get a detailed answer here to this issue? I do not understand why you say so.

    Does this special sort of inspection port cover makes the boat faster in any way?

    To explain to other that read here and perhaps do not know: "Jean -Luc", here, I guess, you are talking of Mr. Jean Luc Michon of France, the actual ILCA Vice President/Europe Chairman/Chief Measurer... (He is the "bad guy"/ the "Darth Vader" that did try to punish drLaser, 4 years ago...)

    For me, I do say friendly thanks for your hint, Alan D. You know, it's easy to carry the originally (permitted) inspection port cover with me to a major race and if you or this Mr. Michon makes a complaint about "Bottlesport" at the race measurement of my Laser... Then, I would friendy say:... yes, Sir,.... I'm so sorry about, Sir,.... I immediatley change it to the original i-port cover, Sir... have you any other complaints about my Laser, Sir?"

    LooserLu
    (registered Master sailor at the GER Laserdistict and registered member of the GER sailing club with the "DSV"-Number "NW 165")
     
  7. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: ...Bottleport is currently illegal...

    LooserLu, Sir, you've got quite the "tone" in your post to Alan D. And Jean Luc Michon as bad guy/ Darth Vader? Please, no terminology making a personal attack. Also, if you want to discuss what happened with DrLaser, please start another thread.
     
  8. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Re: ...Bottleport is currently illegal...

    Okay, sorry, I make a vow for my correction (is that correct written?): Mr. Michon not is "Darth Vader" or a "bad guy".
    LooserLu
     
  9. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

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    After reading the rule, to me it seems (at least to me) that there needs to be a port cover, which the bottleport doesn't have.

    20. INSPECTION PORTS
    Inspection ports not exceeding 153 mm internal diameter
    may be installed on the deck or in the cockpit to provide
    access to the hull cavity, provided that any inspection
    port is fitted with watertight threaded covers (any bayonet
    mounted parts are deemed to be not threaded). Storage
    receptacles are permitted underneath hatch covers.
     
  10. marginal

    marginal Member

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    I agree that the interpretation of the rules disallowing the bottle port sounds daft.

    My interpretation for this rule is that it is based around safety, and the wording ensures that any inspection ports have a robust watertight cover.

    This safety is then compromised (in the same rule) with the statement about allowing storage. Taking the port cover off on the water to access the storage opens a hole in the boat.

    Bottleport seems to offer a way to store your water whilst maintaining the watertight integrity of the hull, which seems like a good idea.

    Is it class legal to carry a waterbottle in a barney bag below a normal port cover, but not to use a bottle port?
    That would be crazy.

    I do not even have an inspection port, and do not intend to cut one, but I'm curious as to this interpretation of the rules.
     
  11. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    The Bottleport IS the port/hatch cover, it is NOT the inspection port.

    I'm guessing it's running afoul of the catch all "if it's not specifically allowed, then it's illegal".....

    After sailing with one and spending a bit of time handling it, I think the Bottleport cover is more robust and less likely to crack/break then the standard port cover from wayward knees, fists etc.

    Yes, IMHO, it's a silly interpretation, and it's also seems silly that it will take 12 months to amend the rules to allow it.
     
  12. hdco1313

    hdco1313 New Member

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    Thanks forumers for your support of the Bottleport.

    I had a good email exchange with Alan yesterday and I'm focusing on the positive--that the immediate reaction of the measurers was not simply to ban it, end of story, but to move immediately to see if there could be a rule change to accommodate it. I think there are a few arguments to make as to why it could be allowed under the current rules but then there is the default-negative Prime Directive: if it's not specifically allowed, it's not allowed.

    As I said in our exchange yesterday, I understand the constant pressure the measurers must be under to make changes to the rules and I appreciate that they seem to be moving to do so with the Bottleport. Since it clearly doesn't affect boat speed or safety, I hope that the process can move along more quickly.
     
  13. Eric_R

    Eric_R D10 Secretary

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    I was interpreting it as you must have storage underneath the port cover.
     
  14. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    While I cannot speak directly on the behalf of Jean-Luc or the ILCA, I will reply to the above comments, but my reply only my thoughts and actions and not that of the ILCA or Jean-Luc.

    I was made aware of the existence of the Bottleport about a week ago by another Laser sailor at my local club. One problem as measurers we face is someone turns up with something you have never seen before and you are forced to make a judgement call on whether it's legal. It's much easier for us, to refer it up the line. Even at major international regattas, the ISAF measurers will discus with each other, in detail items that are being presented. Sometimes, the other measurer will make us rethink our attitude to certain items. The class rules when you look at them in detail leave a lot of grey areas, you need to interpret the rules in the way the rule was intended to be used and not in the way somebody abstractly reads the rule. Further you just don’t immediately ban something because someone has legitimately down something differently to the norm.

    As competitors, you don’t want one measurer saying something is illegal and another saying it’s legal, it just ends in arguments and usually the measurers don’t have the time and all you’ll do cause delays annoying the other 100 competitors waiting in line to be measured. We’d rather have things clearly spelt out in the rules, but unfortunately that is virtually impossible unless the rules get expanded to a multi volume encyclodepai, none of us want that or the sailing lawyers that would arrive on the scene. At a regatta if you want to discuss something with us, do it after we’ve finished for the day and bring a good bottle of wine with you. ;)

    Anyway, on seeing the Bottleport images, I immediately contacted Jean-Luc to get an interpretation before a Bottleport was presented at a regatta where I was the measure. His response was that as the class rules were written, the Bottleport is illegal, however he thought that it was a really good idea and he contacted the Laser Class Technical Committee to initiate changing the class rules so it would be potentially legal in the future.

    The Bottleport falls foul of essentially two rules in my opinion.

    20. INSPECTION PORTS
    Inspection ports not exceeding 153 mm internal diameter
    may be installed on the deck or in the cockpit to provide
    access to the hull cavity, provided that any inspection
    port is fitted with watertight threaded covers (any bayonet
    mounted parts are deemed to be not threaded). Storage
    receptacles are permitted underneath hatch covers.

    21. CLIPS AND STORAGE BAGS
    Clips, ties or bags to stow or secure safety or other
    equipment may be used on the deck, in the cockpit, or
    around the mast.

    The Bottleport is not a receptacle underneath the hatch cover, the hatch cover is a receptacle. Nor is the Bottleport a bag, it’s a rigid plastic device. Further the Bottleport changes the function of the inspection hatch and the inspection hatch cover. While the Bottleport is a brilliant idea, it’s not covered by the class rules and the Laser is a one design class with a fundamental rule that basically says that if the rules don’t specifically authorise something, then it is not permitted, further you are not permitted to change the function of something.

    There have been a lot of ideas put forward in class, some good, some bad, but until the class votes and accepts a new idea, then the one design principle remains. The one design principle needs to be protected for the long term strength and survival of the class, irrespective of whether the item makes the boat faster.

    Why will it take twelve months or more? This is because changes the class rules including changes to the wording of the rules is controlled by the members of the association. You get to vote on whether a rule is changed and this takes time. Then the amended new class rules are released annually. Do you really want the class rules changing on the run? Do you want to be turning up to a regatta one week to find the class rules changed a few days before, without you having a say in the matter, only to find that your boat is no longer legal?
     
  15. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Re: ...Bottleport is currently illegal...

    From my observation of the DrLaser website, some information on the website was good, but it also had large amounts of misinformation and misinterpretations of the class rules. For what it's worth and from my understanding DrLaser was not even a member of the association.

    While your keen to have a go at class measurers, maybe one day you'll come and assist the regatta measurer, race committee, starter and other volunteers that make the regattas happen in a fair manner or the clubs and association run smothly, usually it's at the expense of our own sailing. It's easy to complain about the job others do, it's rare that the complainers would ever get off there butts and assist.
     
  16. Bungo Pete

    Bungo Pete Member

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    I am holding in my hand one of the offending Bottleports, and after reading paragraph 20, specifically, "provided that any inspection port is fitted with watertight threaded covers" (sic) I have the following observations.

    1. Is it threaded? Yes.
    2. Is it watertight? Yes.

    Therefore, with all due respect, it seems to me that this business of "if it's not specifically allowed, it's not allowed" is being taken a little too far. Note that Rule 20 does not specify what type of plastic is permissible to be used for the inspection ports. So, does that mean that a polypropylene cover is legal but a polystyrene one is not? There is a noticable difference. It also does not specify the shape of the cover. I have seen some with two finger indentations, and some with four. Therefore, which one is Legal? Also, if someone fastened a bottle holder to an existing port cover, does that change its purpose? What if they fastened it with duct tape? Screws? What if they fastened a power bar holder? Was there a rule change when someone came up with the little plastic disc which sits over the main sheet block spring to keep it in place? (Actually, if the answer is yes, please don't tell me.)

    I can certainly see the value in maintaining the integrity of the one-design class, and appreciate the efforts of the ILCA in this regard. However, the Bottleport is in essence nothing more than a concave inspection port cover. This is a rare instance where the use of this device constitutes no change or enhancement to the operation or performance of the boat, yet brilliantly solves a common problem. I submit that spending a year debating such a non-issue and voting on same (while keeping people from benefiting from it) is completely unnecessary and to do so would be a waste of time and resources.
     
  17. Merrily

    Merrily Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: ...Bottleport is currently illegal...

    Oh, brother. Guys, the Bottleport is nice. :) I have one myself, but it's just a bottle holder. :) Alan, I'd like to point out that Lu backed off what he said, and I know that LooserLu does a lot to help with the Laser sailing program at his club. He also has been helping newbies with technical questions here for years, using his engineering expertise. So please, all, Lu and Alan, keep it friendly.
     
  18. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Re: ...Bottleport is currently illegal...

    Merrily, thanks. I am not going again "out of topic" at this TLF-Thread, as I promised. All I know, the ILCA Chief measuer (Mr. Michon) is the only one that is permittet to interpret the Classruels for the Laser. If there is a need to legalize bottleport, sure there is a way, to go, if there is a majority that wants to have Bottleport permitted by the Classrules for the Laser.

    Like I told at another Thread of TLF I appreciate, if any of the officials of the class join TLF and try to bring us forward. Sometmes, boys "hit their heads together", because of they do not have the same opinion... Although I would like to write Alan D long email/PM for that what he thinks, but I don't. I say it is time for me to go out sailing, unfortunately here we have hardwatertime...

    Ciao

    LooserLu
     
  19. Der_Dude

    Der_Dude Member

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    Like Bungo Pete, I don' see the problem. Like Alan said, the rules should be interpreted in view of their true meaning (which must not necessarily be the literal understanding of a phrase) and the intention behind it. That's a universal legal procedure.

    Using this method, the Bottleport fits under rule

    "20. INSPECTION PORTS
    Inspection ports not exceeding 153 mm internal diameter
    may be installed on the deck or in the cockpit to provide
    access to the hull cavity, provided that any inspection
    port is fitted with watertight threaded covers .. "

    perfectly, like B.P. showed.

    The second sentence in that rule

    "Storage
    receptacles are permitted underneath hatch covers."

    can be read as a clarification only that said receptacles under the cover do not compromise the legality of the cover. It must not mean, that cover and receptacle can't be one.

    I am guessing that rule 20 was installed primarily to ensure the safety of the boats. Hence the emphasis on the size and the waterthightness. Competition could hardly have been an issue because all holes can compromise but can hardly enhance a hull's performance. In view of this, there's no breach of the rule, the one laid out in the first sentence. The system can be seen as an inspection port and seems just as safe as the usual inspection ports. The rule does not state that inspection ports must be flat plastic discs.

    Rule

    "21. CLIPS AND STORAGE BAGS
    Clips, ties or bags to stow or secure safety or other
    equipment may be used on the deck, in the cockpit, or
    around the mast."

    is not be breached either. It doesn't apply here, in my opinion. Neither is the Bottleport a clip, tie or bag, nor is it used on deck etc. This clause clearly pertains to the means we all use to take bottles and other stuff along, namely clips, ties and/or bags. Also, it indicates, that taking along equipment, like the bottles in a port or tied to the mast, is not a problem because otherwise the rule wouldn't make sense.

    Maybe the ILCA measurer would like to reconsider their opinion in view of my 2 cents.

    And thanks, Looser, for making my day. Some bottle sport, a good red one maybe, will be what I will resort to if this discussion continues...
     
  20. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Guys, Jean-Luc has applied a ruling, the Technical committee are aware of the Bottleport and might enter into discussion with Jean-Luc on whether the product is legal under the current class measurement laws. It's now in their hands to discuss it's legality under the existing rules or to put forward an amendment of the class laws. It's time for the rest of us to move on.
     

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