Argentina "Training" Laser

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by UK Laser Sailor, Jun 25, 2014.

  1. UK Laser Sailor

    UK Laser Sailor Member

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    I had hear the stories of the China Lasers but l have never come across any of these copied boat. Check out this facebook page for Dinghies Argentina. It's a "training" laser.

    https://www.facebook.com/dinghies.argentina

    You can have custom deck colours and graphics. These "training" boats must drive LP mad.

    Can someone who knows Spanish email them? Wonder how much they cost.

    Looking at the pictures, it seems rudders, centreboards, harken style kickers and sails are available.
    Some of the Bing translations are very funny.
     
  2. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    That may be the "99er" (99% a Laser) that has been generating scuttlebutt as of late.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2014
  3. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Laser availability in South America has been a problem for a number of years. This is probably the only way they can get a boat to sail that is like it...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2014
  4. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Brazil isn't very far away from Argentina...
     
  5. CaptainAhab

    CaptainAhab Active Member

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    The sails are Elvstrom(crown logo). There are no lofts in South America. Some of the original Laser sails were Elvstrom.

    Who knows they might be better boats? It would not be hard to improve the structure.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. UK Laser Sailor

    UK Laser Sailor Member

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    Good spot CaptainAhab on the Elvstrom sails. One of the great things about this forums is the amount of history you learn about the laser class. Maybe once the Kirby court case is over someone should write a book on the class history.

    Anybody got any other examples of "training" lasers. Seem to remember seeing a Russian copy?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2014
  7. jotag

    jotag New Member

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    There are two manufacturers here who make training boats as good as LP ones or even better for a half price. That´s why we created 99% class here. Jeff Martin visited Argentina a couple of years ago and he couldn´t believe what he was seeing.
    Laser is great, but ILCA authorities have to allow another manufacturers in order to lower prices. Royalties are very high and also it is cheaper to transfer money than moving boats. Laser class MUST BE accesible to sailors all over the world.
    If they continue with such stupid politics it will happen like Europe class, wich lost Olympic categorie.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2014
  8. Old Dude

    Old Dude Member

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    nicely said jotag. you nailed it. i am all for 99%, more manufacturers, lower prices, and increased access. but i am just a silly

    old dude
     
  9. jotag

    jotag New Member

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    We also manufacture spars , just for training, and dollies, for a fraction of price. We say: " a salior spend 100 times more hours training than racing, then train with ours, cheaper, and save money ". Most of sailor here, use ours spars even for racing under 99%. We export to USA dollies since 2008 ( search for JOTAG DOLLIES in the web) . This year we settled in Miami and we carry spars just to try. To my surprise the little stock sold out in a few days. We are planning to export 99% from Argentina to the world!!!!.jajaja
     
  10. Mrs. P

    Mrs. P Member

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    LP owns the Seitech trademark but ILCA does not have rules in place that require the use of a specific dolly in order to be "legal" at the regatta. So the market has provided us with the following options in the US:

    Seitech Dolly $485 - $660 depending on wheel size
    Trailex Sling $589
    Dynamic Dolly $495
    Jotag Dolly $449.99 - now on sale at Intensity for $325
    Win Design Dolly $407.05
    Rollaboat Tote $150

    Hmmm ... would you go with affordability, performance, reliability, availability or replacement parts, customer service, reputation, etc? It would certainly be nice to be able to make such choices in a boat.

    There is certainly a way to play this game right, not screw the designer or the ILCA and force the manufacturers to compete with a well made product (regardless of its name) ... but that would require some compromises on everyone's part. Wonder if the negotiations are working toward that goal or just focusing on their own self interests.
     
  11. jotag

    jotag New Member

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    It would be easy!!!. What happen with the other classes???. ILCA could certify moulds of each manufacturer. And then every championship, as well as sails, jury can weigh and measure hulls. Regarding gear, they could measure as they actually do, adding a hardness test in a couple of minutes.
    The same happen with sails: Can anyone justify a TM LASER worth 4 times a training one?. A piece of cloth for 700 usd.
    But as you said, Laser is a TM. A business, a great business for a few people.
    Class rule say race have to be won by sailor not by boat, but there are limits!!!!
     
  12. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Why not and this goes to all suppliers of of replica equipment, permanently (so it can't be removed) and clearly mark your equipment as being non class legal. Firstly you're making your profits based on the success of the laser, without paying any percentage to the class, the designers or the builders, all you're doing is simply theft. Secondly despite what you think, your equipment will end up being used in situations where class legal equipment is required, but because of in sufficient markings the measures will struggle to identify it as non class legal.
     
  13. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Rather than making replica boats, why don't you develop your own class, design it, build it, market it, etc. just deserts would be some guy down the road copying it and selling replicas of it without needing to cover any of the expenses you met with in getting the thing up and going.
     
  14. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Probably because design, marketing, testing, etc. all cost time and money. Whereas, using an established market requires no such costs or efforts or risk - so it's easy risk free profit.

    But I agree with your sentiment and I am very much against all this replica equipment that seems to be well established in competitive events these days. I feel that the underlying causes are because the supply of legal gear has been managed disastrously over many years; basically suppliers extracting as much profit as possible resulting is very overpriced products. So replica gear is bound to spread until somebody can get a grip on one of the major reasons the Laser was so successful.

    I suspect that given a choice most people would not buy replica gear. But given such a cost difference and with most clubs allowing non-legal gear in racing, I can see how many people make the choice they do. Shame because I do feel it is doing massive damage to the class.

    Ian
     
  15. monkey_feet

    monkey_feet Arlington, TX

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    Is there a web site we can see the dollies, boats, etc?
     
  16. Cavi

    Cavi Member

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    Two things, first off you have to separate Argentina from the good ol USA. If availability is as difficult there and has been for years, and LP has not changed this then, honestly they are not hurting the sport but helping the sport. Also, having a very inexpensive option in a difficult economy can also help the sport in the long run by getting kids on boats that might not be able to otherwise. Now, that being said, I am in no way in favor of someone just copying a Laser and selling it as a Laser. I would be more comfortable if they had made a change to the deck so that it would be obvious that it was indead not a Laser but something similar, but at a quick glance no one would even think that it was a real Laser.
    Now back to the aftermarket here in the usa. I honestly feel that if LP was charging realistic prices for their parts there would not be a aftermarket. But when you can get a daggerboard for half of what LP is charging and it is identical then something is wrong. The Laser has been in production long enough that there are no more "research" costs to build it. I could see maybe a 5% for promotions, if that, but never twice the cost of the grey market. That is just pure greed and that is hurting the class.
     
  17. jotag

    jotag New Member

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    I completely agree with you Cavi.If `people can get afordable prices, it would not be paralell market. In our case you have to consider freight cost because we are very far from manufacturers. We could manufacture here excelent boats and supply boat and parts to all Latinamerica. Paying reasonable amount to the class, of course. The same for another places in the world. Is it a mistery to make a Laser? We must spend almost 9000 usd to have a boat. When I began to sail laser it cost less than a half than actually do.WHY???. What has changed???.
     
  18. jotag

    jotag New Member

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    Monkey_feet: We don´t manufacture boats, just dollies and practice spars and deliver them from Miami. www.jotagsa.com
    If you give me your email I can show you close pics of my boat in order that you can appreciate quality. I can not race official championships with it. Just for train.
     

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