All about to kick off....

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by Laser Tim, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Tillerman

    Tillerman Member

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    And in breaking news... ISAF just approved the change to the ILCA Fundamental Rule which was was passed by Laser Class members in 2012. The amended rule allows ISAF and ILCA to approve Laser builders who have the right to use the Laser trademark, even if they are not approved by Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc.

    http://www.sailing.org/news/34222.php
     
  2. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    I thought the ISAF had rejected this rule change previously.

    BK is surely only going to be more determined now and may seek in interim injunction banning the product of the boat under copyright pending the outcome of the court case.

    The ISAF could also leave themselves wide open to further litigation by making this move.

    What was already a mess has just been made even worse.
     
  3. tim.platt

    tim.platt New Member

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    Maybe I'm reading between the lines, but the way the statement is worded it seems the ISAF are more interested in the Laser trademark than the boat it's attached to.
     
  4. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Circling the wagons...
     
  5. USA182772

    USA182772 Member

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    Almost as good as last weeks episode of "The Good Wife".
     
  6. wolf822

    wolf822 New Member

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    Doesn't bode especially well for a settlement anytime soon, but keeps the status quo functioning until the case is heard I guess? Technically you can't buy parts for the season with out a "builder"
     
  7. coll

    coll New Member

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    At least until the dealer's stock runs out.. not like we haven't already had that issue with lp as a legitimate builder.
     
  8. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    And ILCA has also made their position a little clearer
    http://www.laserinternational.org/info/statementfromtheinternationallaserclassassociation

    Will it come down to who has the deeper pockets to keep up the fight ?
     
  9. sailchris

    sailchris Member

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    Sounds like they took Kirby's name off the new ISAF plaques.
     
  10. CaptainAhab

    CaptainAhab Active Member

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    How did the Laser logo ownership get separated from the hull design? Obviously a major mistake of Kirby's. The "brand" is often worth much more than what they make.
     
  11. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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  12. Tillerman

    Tillerman Member

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    And Bruce Kirby responds...

    “The ISAF announcement confirms what we feared. It would appear ISAF has been complicit all along in the efforts of Laser Performance and ILCA to steal the Kirby Sailboat design by refusing to pay royalties, issuing plaques to terminated builders, and now using a flimsy pretext to alter the Laser class rules and purport to allow builders to make the Kirby Sailboat without Bruce Kirby’s authorization.


    “The only path forward that does not require a Court Order is the Kirby Torch. We remain available to negotiate with ISAF and/or ILCA if either or both of them is willing to meet.”
     
  13. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I think ISAF and ILCA might just have killed the class. To have come to a working arrangement regarding the Torch, etc. would have helped recover from the disaster of the last few years. If this were happening in the UK I would expect Kirby to take out an injunction against ILCA/ISAF/LPE to stop them building the boat with immediate effect - but who knows what may happen in the US.

    They (ISAF/ILCA) have made a bad situation (with light at the end of the tunnel) into a complete disaster that had a great solution they have mostly closed-off. And ILCA are meant to be working on behalf of the membership!!!

    Ian
     
  14. Sailorchick

    Sailorchick Member

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    There are more than just Purple and Sailboats you can get sails from. We bought a sail and top section from Guildford Marine earlier in the year in their sale (20% of everything in the shop)
     
  15. Sandgrounder

    Sandgrounder New Member

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    Interesting - it's a pity they're not listed on the LaserPerformance "Dealer Locator".
     
  16. Old Dude

    Old Dude Member

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    Disagree. They just saved the class and its about time.

    Nobody is stopping you from buying a Torch, or Kirby from making one. Go ahead, buy it and enjoy it.

    Equally, Kirby sold the rights (trademark) to Laser and should not be trying to stop the class from continuing or extract money after he sold his rights away. How many bites at the aple does he get? If I sell you my car can I take it back and demand more payment yet again and again? In my opinion I think its fair to conclude the neither the class, ILCA or ISAF took anything from Kirby at all. Maybe they actually went out of their way to continue to give things away even when there was little or no basis too do so because they wanted to avoid a fight. Think about it for a moment. If Kirby had a strong argument that they thought would prevail in court, why on earth would they be on this path. It would negatively impact their ability to work with any other class/designer/builder.
     
  17. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Not correct.

    The Trademark (i.e. the right to call a small sailing dinghy a 'Laser') are not controlled by BKI.

    The rights to use the design and the copyright to the construction manual ARE owned by BKI. This is common place in several classes that I am aware of the the UK (the SB20 (formerly SB3), the Blaze and the 2000 (formerly Laser 2000)).

    It is worth mentioning that the 2000 and SB20 also split with LPE recently over non-payment of royalties. In these cases the relevant CAs worked with the design rights holder(s) to move away from LPE and set up their own builder.

    I am also told similar moves are afoot for the Laser Vago.

    So in summary LPE can build a small dinghy and call it a Laser. What they should not be doing is building it using the construction manual and infringing on the design rights of the rights holder without paying the relevant royalty.

    To compare this to another area of leisure. This is similar to who authors and music artist get their income. They get a small 'royalty' for each book/track/album that gets sold. When someone comes along and starts producing their material without their consent they get not royalty. The difference is that these people have things like the MPIAA to back them up. There is nothing like this in place for sailing (except the ISAF who have chosen to go the other way and set a worrying precedent IMO).
     
  18. Northcoastpeter

    Northcoastpeter New Member

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    Hey Guys, Just thought I would post something from a slightly different perspective. I have been out of the class for 10 years now. Previously raced for 10 years, served on association committee and really enjoyed my time in the class. Recently I been thinking about getting back into Lasers.
    I have to say that all of this talk of class splits, litigation etc is not filling me with any confidence to go out and buy a new boat. I think there would be others similar to me.
    Cheers

    Peter
     
  19. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    I would not worry about that too much.

    The Torch have said all boat with ISAF plaques will be class legal Torch dinghies so if they win your boat will be fine.

    If Laser wins then nothing more to say.

    Persoanlly I would not buy a brand new boat right now anyway they are far too expensive for what you get.
     
  20. Old Dude

    Old Dude Member

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    Sorry but we disagree.

    We are both saying the same thing in that the tradmark was sold (for certain territories) by BK and LPE now controls it. That was BK's bite at the apple and his rights.

    In my opnion the construction manual argument is a red herring (attemped second or third bite at the apple) and obviously LPE, ILCA, and ISAF all thought so. Yes you can copyright a cookbook on hopw to make ham sandwich. And I can't make an EXACT copy of that book. I can however make and sell and eat as many ham sandwiches as I want and shall do so is what is happening here. If you try to hold up a contract that says I need to pay you a copyright fee on your ham sandwich cookbook in oder to make, sell or eat my ham sandwiches there is a very reasonable chance the courts will say no because there has to be valid consideratio for the contract to be valid and in my opnion that does not seem to be so here and again all three parties (LPE, ISAF, and ILCA) that have no vested intrest to agree - agreed!

    Anyway, if the courts will decide but I think BK tried to take too many bites at the apple.
     

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