Class Politics All about to kick off....

Take a look at who is on the ILCA Advisory Council in the 2013 Handbook and you will know why the ILCA is on the side of LaserPerformance and won't pay Kirby his entitled royalties. Bill Crane, aka Chairman of LaserPerformance...
Plus Chris Spencer, representing the Aust/NZ builders who are firmly aligned with Kirby. So both sides in this debate are on the World Council.

This isn't about supporting LPE, or supporting Kirby. It's about supporting the Class. The ILCA aren't on one side or the other - they are trying to remove the class (and therefore the sailors) from the middle of a commercial fight between LPE and Kirby.

I think the sailors should be a little more respectful of the efforts of those running the ILCA - they're on our side. Some of the mud being thrown at them in this thread is very disappointing.
 
Plus Chris Spencer, representing the Aust/NZ builders who are firmly aligned with Kirby. So both sides in this debate are on the World Council.

This isn't about supporting LPE, or supporting Kirby. It's about supporting the Class. The ILCA aren't on one side or the other - they are trying to remove the class (and therefore the sailors) from the middle of a commercial fight between LPE and Kirby.

I think the sailors should be a little more respectful of the efforts of those running the ILCA - they're on our side. Some of the mud being thrown at them in this thread is very disappointing.
I'm afraid the way the vote question was expressed by the ILCA and their subsequent failure to provide any information being requested by the members (at that time myself included) made me realise they were not acting for the membership. So because of that I (and others) have left the class. That makes me very uneasy because I strongly believe that when you sail as part of a class you should be a member of the association and support the class. But in the case of what the ILCA had become - no way. The question on the vote (and lack of unbiased information lack of subsequent information) raises very serious questions about the ILCA and there seems no way to get anything out of the "Black Box" they have become. It is like they have a conspiracy of silence. Of all the Class Associations I have been a member of I have never experienced anything like the ILCA.

Ian
 
I kind of recognize the class had to act to have class leagal supply this year (and probably next at the pace of some court cases). However, they have by their action given complete control to LPE in North America and Europe since the builder still has to be a Laser trademark holder which leaves us beholding to LPE for leaky boats and awol parts...
 
Of all the Class Associations I have been a member of I have never experienced anything like the ILCA.

Ian

Curious of how many class asociations you can name that still pay royalties for a construction manual on a 30 plus year old design, after having already paid on trademarks.

I am an old dude but can't think of any...
 
Couple of minor things I am curious about.

LP still seems to be turning boats out in the UK. When you go to the US website, you can buy a boat directly from LP that is listed as "Made in the UK". Does this mean that the LP facility in Rhode Island is idle? And they seem to be bypassing their dealer network, too.

Also, what about the Japanese builder? From what I have read in the past, he has been cranking out Lasers for years and is very loyal to class. The Kirby Torch website lists PSA as the builder for "Asia/Oceania". Has the Japanese builder had the rug yanked out from underneath him by all parties involved?
 
And while I obviously have too much time on my hands, I came across this interesting piece of IP:

http://www.google.com/patents/US20120145063

It does not appear that any of the Kirby Torch builders will be able to sell the improved sail design. And in defense of the ILCA, developing the new sail is exactly what sailors have been asking for and is a service they are providing to class members. I'm sure we'd be using this sail now if it weren't for certain other matters.
 
And just look at the date of the initial filing....Dec 2010.....

It could be that ILCA may have a sail for a boat they can no longer build.....

To be fair this is probably the reason kirby is so keen to work with them as he sees that value in the new sail design. Not that he could not alter it slightly and make his own design as the patent does state it is specifically for the Laser sailboat.
 
Just to make clear, the patent application is not for the sail design itself. It is for a unique feature of the sail, which appears to be a reinforcing patch on the luff tube along where the two mast sections meet (No more nasty wrinkles!). You cannot patent a sail design any more than you can patent a hull design. Though the application mentions "Laser", a properly worded patent would prohibit use of the idea on other boats without licensing. And now that I think about it, they could sue anybody who makes a Laser knock-off sail using the luff tube patch (the real reason for the patent).

Hopefully the ILCA used a different lawyer than the one who told them Kirby's design rights had expired.
 
Just to make clear, the patent application is not for the sail design itself. It is for a unique feature of the sail, which appears to be a reinforcing patch on the luff tube along where the two mast sections meet (No more nasty wrinkles!). You cannot patent a sail design any more than you can patent a hull design. Though the application mentions "Laser", a properly worded patent would prohibit use of the idea on other boats without licensing. And now that I think about it, they could sue anybody who makes a Laser knock-off sail using the luff tube patch (the real reason for the patent).

Hopefully the ILCA used a different lawyer than the one who told them Kirby's design rights had expired.

If Kirby's legal case fails then he would have no need for the sail design (I suspect that the Kirby Torch class is somewhat dependent on the Laser ending).

If Kirby's legal case is successful then there will be no ILCA so I doubt there would be anybody to worry about the patent. Of course ILCA could sell the patent but if they were "dying" then why would they need the money (membership would not be interested).

In fact, the ILCA is (in my opinion) the membership. So I suspect the membership could vote that the ILCA gift the patent to Kirby (if they so wished). And if the Laser was effectively dead, everybody would be sailing in the Torch class and would want the good idea on the sail so might happen ....

Ian
 
here's some more interesting stuff>>

clicky here

Read this too
It struck me before and the articles seem to confirm that anybody buying a new "Laser" (with the modified non-Kirby plaques) is risking having a boat that might be worthless and not allowed in open meetings/regattas depending on the outcome of the court case.

And it was completely predictable that the ISAF/ILCA action on the rule change/plaques was going to up the anti. So ILCA is now in what looks like a win or die competition and is going to be spending vast amounts of members subscriptions on defending their questionable position. Glad I left and that my money will not be wasted on this farce. And they could have negotiated with Kirby and sorted out something in the interests of those sailing the boat. All looks like corporate battles and people running these bodies have forgotten why they are there - for people sitting in the boats on the water !!

So the ILCA has a choice - fight Kirby, resist everything, fight their corporate battle, etc. and spend vast amounts of members subscriptions doing so OR, negotiate with Kirby and spend the same money progressing the class, making things better for the members, doing what they are there to do ... Difficult choice? Me thinks somebody somewhere has "lost the plot".

Ian
 
The Aussie's want to continue to play by the rules. They can afford to because they get $1300 more a boat than the NA builders($6k vs $8K inc 10% GST). PSA's dream would be to get the worldwide Laser market even if it was for a few years while the court cases proceed. They did it last year with the Byte and Byte C2(The Laser's better looking little sister).
 
It's probably too late to drain the (legal) swamp we are in...

And ILCA may go bust financially...

My impression (again) is that had they stayed out of it their liability would have been minimal. Had they negotiated with Kirby re the Torch they would probably not even been involved. But they had to take sides (the wrong side in my opinion). Had to dive into the thick of it. Maybe the vote itself (and the "balance" of the information presented to voters by the ILCA) will be considered by the courts. So membership funds will all go into that rather big black hole of "legal fees". A good and appropriate way for the ILCA to spend it members money ? They might say "we are defending the Class" which might be true except I have the impression they are defending LPE because I suspect most people sailing these boats don't really care much about the name or the logo on the sail. It is the boat and the competition that matter.

I don't know what reserves the ILCA have but a lot of companies at this point would be adjusting budgets and expenditure to provide for fees and outcomes. So are the ILCA cutting other expenditure to make allowance for this ?

And, that unproductive exercise of guessing (that I do a lot of), I suspect that the people in the ILCA that caused this mess will be stepping down to "spend more time on the water" before it "hits the fan". No accountability seems the all too common scenario these days.

Ian
 
And ILCA may go bust financially...

Should this happen, what is the liability of the membership should there be debts or fines that the ILCA cannot pay ? Do the membership become liable ? and if so the membership as of what point in time ?

It would be interesting to know if and what sort of feedback the ILCA or the National Class bodies are getting.

Ian
 
Well the RYA are firmly sat on the fence at the moment on this, I spoke to a friend of mine who is in the inner circle of the RYA and he said it is not for them to get involved yet but they hope all parties sort something out.

The latest from PSA definitely ups the anti. To be fair this is comeuppence for LPE as they were the ones holding back the sail changes by refusing to sign on the dotted line (I believe, from a thread on this forum some time ago). Now a bit of Karma has come up on them.

Still a right royal mess. I hope all paid up members are giving their local reps a hard time who in turn are giving ILCA a hard time and telling them what they want rather than letting the decision be made for them.....
 
The Aussie's want to continue to play by the rules. They can afford to because they get $1300 more a boat than the NA builders($6k vs $8K inc 10% GST). PSA's dream would be to get the worldwide Laser market even if it was for a few years while the court cases proceed. They did it last year with the Byte and Byte C2(The Laser's better looking little sister).

Not really, the Aussies have obviously sorted a business model that works out and means the company is profitable so they continue to pay their way. This is something LPE should have also done rather than try to expand the range (with most of them ultimately failing (Laser3000, Laser4000, Laser5000, Laser Vortex) or taking themselves away for the same reason as BKI is trying to do (Laser2000/2000, SB3/SB20).

I am sure AlanD is more placed to comment on the comparitive pricing of a Laser in Aus vs the competition......
 
On the pricing aspect, Lasers are the low end of the middle of what's on the production boat market. Whilst people complain about the cost of a Laser, you actually get a fair amount for your money relative to other sports. A good quality new sea kayak will cost $2000+. You can easily blow $3000-$5000 on a nice road bike and top of the range bikes are well over $12,000, you can buy some small cars for less.

Not much competition for the Lasers in Australia wrt single handers. Small fleets of domestic / international classes, most of which would be lucky to have 50 boats at a national or state championships. Some club Laser fleets are approaching those numbers when all the rigs are combined. Pretty much the same could equally be said about any other sailing class in crewed boats. Many classes here are lucky to get 20 boats to a nationals.

I quietly cheer every time a class dies and quietly weep with the introduction of every new class. I think there is probably a need for about 20 dinghy classes world wide. Junior single handed, junior double handed with and without spinnaker. Youth single hander (Laser 4.7?), youth double handed with and without spinnaker. Adult production single hander (Laser Radial/Standard?), adult double handed with and without spinnaker (I'm partial to the Tasar), adult development single hander (Moth?), adult double handed with and without spinnaker. A couple of adult catamaran based on a similar basis. And one or two production keel boats (Etchells / J24's or something). We don't need 1000's of classes world wide, with every builder wanting to get their own laser like product onto the market. Weak local classes really don't help sailing.

Our biggest competition to the Laser class comes from not other sailing classes, just the way society wants to use their free time these days i.e. go rock climbing this Saturday, surfing on the Sunday, camping/kayaking next weekend, golf the following Saturday and a bike ride the Sunday. Few are willing to commit to organised competition on a regular basis. My own case, sailing, cycling, horse riding (my partner bought me a horse recently), I'd like to still be doing climbing regularly, bushwalking (hiking), downhill skiing and XC skiing when I get the chance and I can see a kayak coming in the near future since my partner was recently given one. She also sails Lasers and big boats, cycles and horse rides. DYI House renovations are also not helping me commit to anything.
 
AlanD,

You just described the primary US sailing market. Opti's, Laser's, BluJay's(or some other small doublehander), 420's, 470's. Keel boats are J/22 & J/24 with a few groups of Etchells and Solings. Of course there are good fleets of Melges boats and the like here and there. However, I was amazed when I moved to Australia by the shear number of boats of all sizes. Its obvious why no one can make money building boats here(other than PSA). Not enough sailors and way to many designs. Our club racing has a mixed fleet of 10 designs. Our Friday nite big boat scene might as well as be called a fleet of one offs, because there are so many different 30 foot designs.

So is that a 1 or a 2 Laser horse you are riding? Those things can get pretty expensive.
 
Allan D.

I can afford to buy a new boat every year if I really wanted one. I am complaining about the price because how many Juniors in High School can afford a $6000 boat? In the late 70's there were several hundred lasers at JYRA events. If I didn't enjoy racing against Juniors then I would go buy a Star Boat.
 
Hey all, old, old ILCA Council member here. Jeffers is so right, it is a "right royal mess". But I think it's important to remember that everyone, (except the pirate who has scuttled the European and US builders) wants the Laser sailboat to continue to be built, and all old and new Lasers to be class-legal so that there will continue to be the best one-design sailboat class in the world. We're just not all hiking out on that side of the boat right now. Voting members have been misled.

Your elected ILCA World Council are following someone who lost their way - ceased working for the class members and people who sail the boat - many years ago. The long-time Exec. Secretary, despite being hired and paid by the members, was led solely by the builders even 15 years ago when I was involved. (sorry, Fred, yes I know what Thumper said . . . ) If this was a sports team, the coach would have been fired years ago.

I just waded through the whole sell job on the rule change that was voted upon in 2011, and it is a typical obfuscation from the international office designed to make the members follow what the builder wanted at that time, to get out of paying Bruce Kirby his rightful royalty. The members passed this vote, (how the heck??) but from recent posts and polls, I'm hearing that a large percentage of Joe Average Laser Sailors are coming down on the side of Mr. Kirby in the legal wrangle now.

Let's hear it for doing the Right Thing. Let's hear it for buying Lasers from PSA and the Japanese builders for a few years until we can find builders in the US and Europe who will abide by the contract. Yeah, they'll be expensive, but that's better than having no new boats available at all. Plus it will reward PSA for taking the high road all this time. The Juniors in high school will have to sail old boats for a few years. Unless times have changed a lot, there are thousands of great, lightly used Lasers sitting around at clubs and in peoples' yards waiting to be polished up and launched.

Lastly let's hear it for some new blood over at the International Laser Class Association office. Get on to your elected reps, and blast them for following blindly into this quagmire.
 
... until we can find builders in the US and Europe who will abide by the contract....

I gather that Kirby has already selected (from the Torch web site http://www.kirbytorch.com/builders). You can check back through the thread but people who know about the appointed builders seemed to comment they they are good and that we can expect high quality boats from them (but I am only repeating what others have posted as I have no experience of the new builders).

Ian
 
I guess there will be nothing new until ISAF meets this week. Wonder if they can back-pedal fast enough to get out of the lawsuit?

Will they withdraw on making the new plaques, and just agree to change the name of the Olympic single-handers to Torch, then go on, business as usual? Or will they continue their destructive course?

What then happens to ILCA? Seems like their goose is cooked either way it comes down. Maybe that's how the dictator will finally be overthrown!

Meantime, those of us who are members of US Ailing, or CYA should be writing our national reps to take a stand about this at the ISAF meeting.
 
So what about this threat?:



Laser Dealers and Buyers Beware

posted May 3, 2013, 3:25 PM by Kirby Torch
We have learned that ISAF and ILCA intend to issue a New ISAF Plaque to terminated builder Laser Performance in North America and Europe. We understand the New ISAF Plaque will eliminate any reference to Laser designer Bruce Kirby. So future Laser hulls will not include his name.
We don’t think this decision by ISAF/ILCA is legal but a US Court will decide. In the meantime, we want to caution that the Kirby Torch Class will not accept Laser hulls bearing this New ISAF Plaque as class legal. The New ISAF Plaque will only mean that fees have been paid to ILCA and ISAF. It will not mean that the Laser hull is Kirby Torch class legal.
But, the Kirby Torch Class will accept as class legal any Laser hull bearing the original ISAF Plaque that includes “Bruce Kirby” even if no license fee has been paid to Bruce.
Commentators have suggested that the ISAF/ILCA decision to create and issue New ISAF Plaques, erasing Bruce Kirby’s name from the boat he designed, might lead to supply shortages of Lasers worldwide. See http://www.sail-world.com/USA/ISAF-Laser-intervention---Supply-problems-looming?/109036
 
Well, there already are supply problems, aren't there. The broke builders in NA and UK haven't been paying their suppliers, so there are few if any parts to rig the boats even if they do build hulls not to mention no spare parts to be had. Anybody who buys a new Laser (even from Japan or Aus) before this is resolved is out of their mind. So why would the builders keep building them? Without the original ISAF plaque, they aren't class legal and with a "new" plaque without Kirby on it, they are just not legal period. Counterfeit.

That's what the back-pedaling involves at the ISAF meeting next week - reversing their (stupid, illegal imo) decision to issue plaques without Kirby's name on them. Otherwise it will have to go to court, Kirby will win because he has done nothing wrong, and has legal, long-standing contracts. All Lasers will become Torches. Kirby already has builders and supply lines set up to go into production once he has secured his position again.

Who knows how long all that will take if it goes to court? ISAF needs to reverse their position in order to avoid the court proceeding. They need to recognize Torch as the new name for Kirby-designed Olympic classes so everyone can move forward. (the builders DO own the Laser name, and the logo)

The market for used Lasers will perk right up, as people buy up old boats for spare parts. There are over 200,ooo Lasers around, probably less than half of them being sailed.

As for ILCA, they have scuttled themselves. Anybody who re-ups their membership is also wasting their money. Join the Torch class for free! Put a new logo on your sail and go sailing.
 
So what about this threat?:



Laser Dealers and Buyers Beware

posted May 3, 2013, 3:25 PM by Kirby Torch
We have learned that ISAF and ILCA intend to issue a New ISAF Plaque to terminated builder Laser Performance in North America and Europe. We understand the New ISAF Plaque will eliminate any reference to Laser designer Bruce Kirby. So future Laser hulls will not include his name.
We don’t think this decision by ISAF/ILCA is legal but a US Court will decide. In the meantime, we want to caution that the Kirby Torch Class will not accept Laser hulls bearing this New ISAF Plaque as class legal. The New ISAF Plaque will only mean that fees have been paid to ILCA and ISAF. It will not mean that the Laser hull is Kirby Torch class legal.
But, the Kirby Torch Class will accept as class legal any Laser hull bearing the original ISAF Plaque that includes “Bruce Kirby” even if no license fee has been paid to Bruce.
Commentators have suggested that the ISAF/ILCA decision to create and issue New ISAF Plaques, erasing Bruce Kirby’s name from the boat he designed, might lead to supply shortages of Lasers worldwide. See http://www.sail-world.com/USA/ISAF-Laser-intervention---Supply-problems-looming?/109036

Seems to me he may be overplaying his hand, and it makes me wonder just who is pulling the strings behind all the "Kirby Torch" PR.
 
The piece quoted above originated at www.kirbytorch.com/news You should go there and read Kirby's letter, at least. Then read the Feedback section.

I don't see any strings being pulled. Most people see this as a right or wrong situation, and that Bruce Kirby is right on all counts.

It's too bad he has to change the boat's name and logo, but he didn't own them. It's the same boat, same sailors, same fleets, same regattas, just a new name.
 
... and that Bruce Kirby is right on all counts. ...

... on all, really?

So, you are the opinion:

Someone, that unknowingly about the BK/LP royality non-payment issue, but lawful "bought for cash" a "counterfeit" "Kuehlschranktuer™" (aka: "Laser™") with a sailnumber higher than ~ #201.400 (built by LP in January 2011) up to ~#205.000 (built by LP till 23th April 2013 ), for about minimum 5.500 € (1€=~1.3 US$$$$ ... incl. 19%VAT+all out-of-the box-boat-builder/TM - royalities!!!) is correct called to be a "main culprit"( this is exactly what BK and his lawyer write in their 1st and updated "bill of indictment")????

I say: ~ about 2.400 Laserites (including me!), that own a new "Kuehlschranktuer™" with a sailnumber between #201.400 to #205.000, think definitely different than you (Lets say: 30% of the counterfeit "Kuehlschranktueren™" are built by PSA or PS Japan) ...

B.K.&friends, in their megalomania only accelerate the move of "common"(/"non-pro"-) Laserites (like me) and upcomming new young Laserties into other sailing classes (as for me; probably European "O-Jolle" / "Finn-Dinghy" / as for youngsters f.e.: OpenBIC, 29er, Int._Moth, 420, Europe-Dinghy, Flash, Splash, Pirat-Boat, Kite Surfing, etc., etc.) or off of ambitious sailing/racing into: Basketball, Baseball, Football, Soccer, biking, horseriding, etc. etc.

As for me in gthe moment: I stopped racing my brand new "Kuehlschranktuer™, GER#203.xxx. She is well hidden, somewhere at the European contintent (or near-Asia-zone ?? hihi) ... In future I sail her recreational, of couse!!

Try to find her, B.K. (and later: heirs) & Wesley W. Whitmyer, good luck on that!!!!!!

Ooops, by the way, I am so sorry to say, that I also have decided to stop also my support to our club youth sailing program in the "Kirby Dinghy" (aka "Kuehlschranktuer™")
and
forums work as a site-admin (at our national "Kuehlschranktuer™"-class-forum) if those judges of that court at "Ct." in future decide: All "Kuehlschranktueren™", built by LP beginning of January 2011up to now, are counterfeit.

Ciao
LooserLu
GER
 

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