All about to kick off....

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by Laser Tim, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. rippa

    rippa Member

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    Thats what the Torch is all about. Old guys kikkking ass. On ya Bruce
     
  2. coll

    coll New Member

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    I can't believe that LP is going to just let a multimillion dollar revenue stream go without a fight. I think this is going to get really messy really fast.

    Yeah, sure the hardcore laser sailors who read these forums is going to know about the change, but what about the average recreational sailor? They're not going to care about any of this. They'll just buy a laser, probably directly from LP, plaque or no plaque. Even beyond this, it's just going to kill sales. Nobody wants to deal with this confusion except maybe someone who's doing an olympic campaign. I sure don't. Laser fleets have been dying for the last 5 years and this is going to make it even worse. Time to jump ship imo.
     
  3. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    Most recreational sailors would not buy a new boat......

    All those serious about racing will make sure they buy a boat that is class legal....

    This is not a multi million dollar revenue stream either, why do you think we are in this mess? It is because LPE had cash flow problems and then stopped paying royalties and never resumed paying them....
     
  4. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    It is excellent that the torch class is including ALL ISAF plaques Lasers. It would have been very easy (and one could say justifiable) for Kirby to require a payment (or maybe measurement and registration fee, etc.) for boats where no Rights Holder (Kirby) royalty had been paid. If the measurement and payment were to become a "Torch" that it would be valid whatever the outcome of the court case. So a good move from Kirby.

    Ian
     
  5. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I suspect that, as the court case is going to be some time in being resolved, that the Torch class will be well up and running by the time anybody gets to even argue their case before the Judge. I guess most clubs will adopt the Torch class pretty readily (as that is the only source of new boats). And even if LP keep selling their "Lasers", they will not have any ISAF plaques so I suspect would have to be sold on the basis of "Training hull" (or they could end-up with a lot of private cases from individuals after they arrive proudly at their club with their new boat (that they are immediately told they cannot race!).

    And this time next year (or later) whatever the outcome of the court case, Torch will be an established class.

    Add in that sailors are a pretty moral crowd (e.g. the self policing nature of the RSS, etc.) and the allegation that LPE just stopped paying money they owed the designer of their much loved class and I cannot see many leaping to the defence of Laser Performance Europe.

    Ian
     
  6. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Forgot about the original post in this thread. Looks like this did happen, and was quite accurate.
     
  7. Icedtea

    Icedtea New Member

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    I support Kirby in this. Yes this is annoying as hell, and there'll be a delay before any new boats are built, but that only will affect the 1% who want new boats....the same 1% the upper echelons of ILCA seem only to listen to.

    Hopefully this will lead to a cheaper, better product for us all.
    Shame about the name though.
     
  8. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    It would not surprise me if the US/Europe builders purchased some hulls from the Aus builder as a "stop gap" measure whilst or depending on how quickly they can get their production up to speed. As the move must be seen by all Torch builders as being in their interests, for Aus builder to sell a few extra hulls is good and for new builders to be able to supply before they can produce volume (even with low profit margin) would be beneficial to them as well.

    Ian
     
  9. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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  10. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    The past 36 hours I couldn’t get off of the sensation/"bad Feeling" Bruce Kirby launched an all-out attack into my life as a common sailor and boat owner of a nearly brand new Laser™ Radial built by LP Ltd at Long Buckby UK.



    But, I remembered to words that an old friend (of TX) many years ago told here to us at TLF: You acquired lawfully a boat at your country. Whether the old fart that designed, built and sold her to you likes it or not: It’s is your boat! He can’t “boat”-jack her away of you, if you don’t agree to let him do so. That’s a soothing opinion to me.



    What am I able to do, as one of the over 200000? I gave a “like” to the announcement of the ILCA at their Facebook website. The more “likes” there are done, the better it is for Tracy to argue against the heavy waves Kirby actually hits into the waterfront.

    I would like to see also an over 10.000 “like”s at a related TLF poll, but till now there is no related poll here in the moment (I am to stupid to initiate such a poll upon in the first line at TLF-Politics discussions section here, sorry). Jon D., a serious long-time member of TLF (of the US East Coast) at this ILCA Facebook website, I mentioned above, linked a related petition form sheet to the ILCA to the “change.org” Internet website. I consider signing it. Would this be helpful to sign there? Opinions here at TLF on that?

    Here you find Jon's petitition:
    http://www.change.org/petitions/int...n-consider-adopting-itself-as-the-torch-class


    P.S. Kirby doesn’t say anything to Laser™ Radial. Actually, in his hubris/megalomania related to common sailors of Laser™ Standard wanton let by side, that Laser™ Radial and Laser(TM) 4.7 are independent “ISAF recommended” sailboats with own/independend world championships, too (not to forget to mention: the Laser™ Radial is “the” single-handed boat for the ladies at the Olympic Games)! The Kirby Torch(TM) in the moment not even is “ISAF recommended”…. Actually a Kirby Torch(TM) “Radial” or “4.7” not even is mentioned at Kirby’s new homepage! This is an insult to any serious/ambitious recreational sailing or racing male/female youth/senior/master Laser™ Radial and Laser™) 4.7 sailor!

    BTW:

    Not to forget to mention: some serious workers at the Laser™-builders shipyards f.e. at UK/USA, probably soon lose their jobs and income. You all know, I am not really a big friend of several of the ILCA Office (exception: Tracy) nor I am a big friend of LP/UK, but in this case I am with Tracy and also I am with the innocent workers of LP at Long Buckby (UK)/Rhode Island (USA)/Japanese workers at PS-Japan!

    To give some of those nameless workers real faces one only has to visit LP’s Facebook website and there view the actual video about how a Laser™ hull is produced! My thoughts are with those workers in the same way, f.e like with the many workers of the Opel car factory at Bochum/GER. To explain: GM/USA in the moment starts to destroy the Opel at the GER (and Vauxhall at UK) and begins this battle with the closing of the Opel-factory at Bochum, less than 20 km away of my home, another tragedy in the atmosphere close around to me…



    Ciao

    LooserLu
    {Member of the Argentinean “99%-Laser™”-Class, Region Europe, District GER}
     
  11. 49208

    49208 Tentmaker

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    I think there are some things being lost in translation.

    Jon D's petition is specifically asking the ILCA to consider Bruce's proposal, as well giving the class members a voice in which direction the class goes. Right now we have no voice and many of us do NOT want the class to wait for a lawsuit that might drag on for years.

    Many of us think Bruce Kirby's direction is the right one for the class and in the members' best interest.

    Regarding the Radial and 4.7 - They may or may not be specifically mentioned (I have not read all the documents in the lawsuit), the fact is they use the same hull and without plaques or licensed builders, there can be no NEW hulls to create a NEW Laser Radial or Laser 4.7

    Regarding the loss of workers at LP factories, it could have been avoided if LP continued pay the royalties that were part of the contracts. Might be interesting to see how people that worked for Hyde and Holt feel ;)





     
  12. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    That you purchased the boat legally is not the issue. The issue is whether LP built the boat legally or whether it is counterfeit. If I buy a Rolex from a man at Euston station for £20 it is my watch - might be worthless because it was not actually made by Rolex, not to Rolex quality and standards, etc.

    I'm afraid ILCA has already once taken the wrong side in this and I no longer have any time for them. Whilst ILCA morphing into ITCA would probably be a sensible move, I also feel it is time for a clean sweep (and after a "clean sweep" I would immediately join again because I do consider class associations as important).

    You also have to remember that ILCA is one of the bodies being taken to court by Kirby (and understandably so as well) - so they are hardly likely to welcome the action! But they sort of "put themselves in harms way". They may have a valid defence, maybe they don't (as we have only seen Kirby's documentation and they might e.g. have disputed the Builder Terminations issued by Kirby to LP and hence were right to continue issuing plaques; or many other possibilities). I certainly hope they do have a decent defence because otherwise they have been highly irresponsible and deserve what might be coming. But I would imagine we will not be seeing their defence until the court case (depending on how US courts work).

    Personally, given the information in the public domain I think Kirby has been put in a position where he has little choice other than to take that actions now in progress.

    I'm not a member of Facebook but the only petition I can see is one asking ILCA to tell the membership more about what is going on and to consider all options http://www.change.org/petitions/int...n-consider-adopting-itself-as-the-torch-class (but I wont sign change.org petitions after I got SPAMed from them after signing my 1st one there). And the ILCA is pretty bad compared to other class associations I have been a member of.

    I believe that to leave everything "in-limbo" whilst the court case works its way to conclusion would kill the class pretty completely. No new boats, few spares. Basically LP would not know where they stand and cannot build boats (without plaques) so would not buy stock of other parts, etc. So as things stand, the Torch is the only way the class can stay alive. As I said, I left ILCA because I was "less than impressed" with them. Their action through the current situation seems just daft (is it the same people making the same flawed decisions?). I can see it makes sense for ILCA to morph into ITCA but I also think it might be better in the long term (and for the sailors) to let the ILCA go the same way as LPE and for the class to form a new ITCA which recognises the membership and the importance of the membership.

    Ian
     
  13. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Greg, exact this is the point! "IS" B.K's direction the right one etc.? What is the right? Could we trust into the ILCA's work or do they do something wrong. It is totally unclear here at my country. F.e. at GER most "TGIF"-boat sailors just dont' care or in the Moment do have a not objective opinion, in lack of ENOUGH serious informations or simply to say: "English" is not their language ... understand me?

    There is many to say about this pro and contra by other not native English speaking sailors, but f.e. even my English is to poor to write really exact at TLF, what I really want to express, imagine other that perhaps ~ 1 time a year read a seasonal greetings card in English.... but like to sail there "TGIF"-Dinghy, like they have ever done. And now Kirby comes and says "join the army".... But, they pay fees to ILCA or national sail classes for the "TGIF", f.e. do they have to pay 2 fees in future, for a while etc etc.

    No-no, 1st I more believe strong in Tracy's work, I secretly have watched him acting at Boltenhagen ILCA Meeting, during my visit there. I wasn't convinced about Heini/Jeff/Luc... For me it is a bit like in a Wimbledon Tennis final match in the moment: "serve and volley"... Lets wait (although ist hard to stay calm, even for an edge head like me....) and see what the ILCA is doing. (At GER we say: "Abwarten und Tee trinken"...) They (aka Tracy etc.) ARE our voice.

    Another example: Ian Bruce failed in the try introduce his Byte CII at many countries at Europe (f.e. search for races at GER or a national class at GER for the CII). Kirby in the moment is doing the same mistakes like Ian has done. Needless to say: in my opinion the CII is wonderful boat, but all here at GER sail Laser Standard or LaserRadial or Laser 4.7 or Europe-Dinghy not CII or Mega-Byte. The mistakes for the TGIF-boat have been done during the time BK and I.Bruce tried to get the TGIF "IRYU/ISAFrecommended" in the beginning of the 1970. In German I could figure out exact what htis mistakes have been (and would be able to hold a speech about that aspects, a complete evening long), but not in English, I am so sorry! Now BK is going to try to repeat/reiterate the same mistakes with contracts to builders, trademark rights etc and the relationship to the ISAF... but ISAF is not stupid / they sure have learnt their lesson for the early 1970, related to the TGIF.


    For the rest of your reply: I agree, and I appologize to mention workers of Hyde/North/Holt(Allen) etc. etc. they probably share the same "Karma" like those workers of LP USA/UK/PS-Jap.

    Ciao
    Lu
     
  14. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    Ian, believe me, this was nearly exact my question to GER Customs Authority in a serious phone call to their officers!!! Later, yesterday I also discussed that aspects to my lawyer! There has been a light chance for BK to get over me: If I would have bought the boat f.e. at AUS or Rhode Island /USA. But, I purchased my boat from the GER dealer (this is "inside of the EU-borders"), GER Customs wouldn't come to boat-jack my "in the EU made"-Radial. And additionally: the GER/EU trademark laws are a bit different to the US laws. BK can't do a "written warning" combined by a "claim for damages" (in GER: "Kostenpflichtige Abmahnung und Schadenersatzklage wegen Verstoß gegen das Marken Gesetz") against me, like Rolex could do, if I would buy a only 50,-€ prized Rolex at f.e. St.Anton/Austria. First he has to win the court proceeding at the USA.
    P.S.: Thanks for the spam-warning about change.org Thats the last I want to have.. a gazillion additional spam emails of such a website :confused:

    Ciao
    Lu
     
  15. gouvernail

    gouvernail Active Member

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    I have made an effort to find out exactly what has been and is going on. I wish I had sufficient knowledge to express an opinion about this matter.
     
  16. urbo100

    urbo100 Ian

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  17. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    I cannot see anybody could come and take you boat from you. I agree with them (and you) in that respect. However, what you purchased may not have been a Laser. OK, you purchased in good faith and were misled by those you purchased from (depending on the outcome of the court case.

    But that is all totally academic as Kirby has included ALL Lasers as legal in the Torch Class. I don't quite understand where this "come and take my boat" has appeared from because through all this nobody has ever said that boats without royalty payments by the builder will be re-claimed to be owned (and taken) by Bruce Kirby! Like if I buy a Rolex for £25 from some dodgy guy outside Euston station. When it turns-out it is not a Rolex, Rolex do not come and take my watch from me. I is just that what I have is not worth anything because it isn't a Rolex. I might go back to the guy who sold it to me and the Police and courts might have something to say.

    But who is trying to take you Laser ? Because Kirby certainly isnt and is even saying it is a completely legal Torch.

    Ian
     
  18. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    In the moment the situation still is: For LP Europe, by LP Europe official licensed GER boat dealer, the ILCA, the DLAS, the ISAF: she is a “made in the UK”-“Laser™ Radial™”, what I bought.

    BUT, GER courts here think different than the common humans here:

    If “someone” (f.e.: legal holder of a TM or holder on the right of a name or patent-holder, wherever on this globe) “files a charge” because of breaking GER trademark-/name-laws, GER authority-attorneys 1st only look to: what is the related law to decide about and is this law violated by the customer. I had to investigate the same, the past 3 days. I had to check all the variations in case of me.

    Yes, it sounds all a bit “academic”, but it isn’t.

    Imagine, BK is gone/passes by (and here I like to wish him all the best for a long and lucky life, much health for that he lives twice as long as Methuselah, I doesn’t begrudge it to him) and his legal heirs decide: to not think like BK in the moment , just to get more profit and check for plagiarism (counterfeit) at the Laser™, based on that that the US court decides. (I don’t know what happens in future, of course only BK knows how his legacy is regulated). His heirs for the next 30 years here at GER have the right to file a charge at GER prosecution service, if BK wins the actual US lawsuit. No matter if he actual says Laserites are very welcome at the Kirby Torch class, also their Laser™-toys.


    But, yes, correct said, that is all a bit “ academic theory”, what I am talking about if one is outside of my country… but it is my karma to have been student of drLaser™ at former TLF-discussions, many years ago and to recommend on this or that aspect, related to Laser™-affairs …:confused:

    BTW: I also write here, because perhaps other at TLF reading foreign Laserites have the same thoughts at their countries, but don’t have any idea in the moment, how to deal with this situation.



    In this case, the situation is more difficult at GER, Ian. The GER police initiated probably by a GER prosecution service checks if you are a company and bought a bunch of Rolex-coutnerfeit’s or only one. As long as you own only one, they don’t care, as long you don’t use it (don’t wear the wrist watch at your arm). If you re-sell it or use it, they take the counterfeit and attorneys sanction/penalize you. GER is a crazy country in this aspects, isn’t it … Very-very difficult for me to explain here and to correct translate in English ….:oops:




    Ian, believe me or not, such a “boat-jack” at GER really happened to a GER Laserite in the past… finally/ at least: in reason of / based on the trademark contracts of BK that in the moment still are legit! (And: No, I don’t tell here openly more about this “boat-jack”, in respect to the privacy of this Laserite and also: to tell correct all the details is to much to translate etc. etc.

    As told, I am still calm in the moment. You know, I am a weird/sick crazy guy because I am a GER (civil-)engineer/M.O.S, you know…. All the day long, many years now, at work, I have to check for the fact always: Is everything /each case /possible disaster “under control”, at my Projects / construction areas aka: is 110% all best provided forallcontingencies, you know…:D

    Ciao
    LooserLu
     
  19. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    You know, that's the one voice we haven't heard through this whole fiasco. I'm sure drLaser™ would have quite interesting opinions to express.

    I'm gradually starting to think that Kirby and the Torch class are the only real path forward. As others have mentioned, it's largely a 1%/99% issue. LP and Rastegar obviously don't care about weekend sailors. The ILCA and ISAF have been very disappointing through this whole issue. They communicate very little and seem mostly concerned with protecting the class' Olympic status. Kirby is at least attempting to reach out to rank-and-file class members with his website. I think the key is to get the national-level associations in the fold. Whatever emerges from this situation, it's going to be the same volunteers running the class and organizing regattas.

    So say the "Torch Class" and the "Laser Class" merge. I don't really care for the "Torch" name, but that is only really going to affect 1%-ers and those buying new boats. Everybody else I sail with will keep calling them "Lasers". Then maybe LP will go away, and the builders wil be able to re-acquire the "Laser" trademark in a few years.
     
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  20. LooserLu

    LooserLu LooserLu

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    "Torrid", Shevy just permitted me to quote the following to you:

    "I'm alive and in good health, but I'm NOT analyzing the Laser/Torch situation. I still love the boat, but I have nothing to give to this Class who has been so unkind and dishonest to its sailors in country after country"

    Wished I could sail with him in the moment, but he lives and sails ~3000 km distance to the south of of where I live and sail ....:oops:

    Ciao and: "TGIF"!!! Time to think about to have a visit to the Club for havin' some fresh air and a tasty GER beer ( ... "Krombacher Pils" ;) ) for the brain ...
    Lu
     

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