Class Politics All about to kick off....

The past 36 hours I couldn’t get off of the sensation/"bad Feeling" Bruce Kirby launched an all-out attack into my life as a common sailor and boat owner of a nearly brand new Laser™ Radial built by LP Ltd at Long Buckby UK.



But, I remembered to words that an old friend (of TX) many years ago told here to us at TLF: You acquired lawfully a boat at your country. Whether the old fart that designed, built and sold her to you likes it or not: It’s is your boat! He can’t “boat”-jack her away of you, if you don’t agree to let him do so. That’s a soothing opinion to me.



What am I able to do, as one of the over 200000? I gave a “like” to the announcement of the ILCA at their Facebook website. The more “likes” there are done, the better it is for Tracy to argue against the heavy waves Kirby actually hits into the waterfront.

I would like to see also an over 10.000 “like”s at a related TLF poll, but till now there is no related poll here in the moment (I am to stupid to initiate such a poll upon in the first line at TLF-Politics discussions section here, sorry). Jon D., a serious long-time member of TLF (of the US East Coast) at this ILCA Facebook website, I mentioned above, linked a related petition form sheet to the ILCA to the “change.org” Internet website. I consider signing it. Would this be helpful to sign there? Opinions here at TLF on that?

Here you find Jon's petitition:
http://www.change.org/petitions/int...n-consider-adopting-itself-as-the-torch-class


P.S. Kirby doesn’t say anything to Laser™ Radial. Actually, in his hubris/megalomania related to common sailors of Laser™ Standard wanton let by side, that Laser™ Radial and Laser(TM) 4.7 are independent “ISAF recommended” sailboats with own/independend world championships, too (not to forget to mention: the Laser™ Radial is “the” single-handed boat for the ladies at the Olympic Games)! The Kirby Torch(TM) in the moment not even is “ISAF recommended”…. Actually a Kirby Torch(TM) “Radial” or “4.7” not even is mentioned at Kirby’s new homepage! This is an insult to any serious/ambitious recreational sailing or racing male/female youth/senior/master Laser™ Radial and Laser™) 4.7 sailor!

BTW:

Not to forget to mention: some serious workers at the Laser™-builders shipyards f.e. at UK/USA, probably soon lose their jobs and income. You all know, I am not really a big friend of several of the ILCA Office (exception: Tracy) nor I am a big friend of LP/UK, but in this case I am with Tracy and also I am with the innocent workers of LP at Long Buckby (UK)/Rhode Island (USA)/Japanese workers at PS-Japan!

To give some of those nameless workers real faces one only has to visit LP’s Facebook website and there view the actual video about how a Laser™ hull is produced! My thoughts are with those workers in the same way, f.e like with the many workers of the Opel car factory at Bochum/GER. To explain: GM/USA in the moment starts to destroy the Opel at the GER (and Vauxhall at UK) and begins this battle with the closing of the Opel-factory at Bochum, less than 20 km away of my home, another tragedy in the atmosphere close around to me…



Ciao

LooserLu
{Member of the Argentinean “99%-Laser™”-Class, Region Europe, District GER}
 
I think there are some things being lost in translation.

Jon D's petition is specifically asking the ILCA to consider Bruce's proposal, as well giving the class members a voice in which direction the class goes. Right now we have no voice and many of us do NOT want the class to wait for a lawsuit that might drag on for years.

Many of us think Bruce Kirby's direction is the right one for the class and in the members' best interest.

Regarding the Radial and 4.7 - They may or may not be specifically mentioned (I have not read all the documents in the lawsuit), the fact is they use the same hull and without plaques or licensed builders, there can be no NEW hulls to create a NEW Laser Radial or Laser 4.7

Regarding the loss of workers at LP factories, it could have been avoided if LP continued pay the royalties that were part of the contracts. Might be interesting to see how people that worked for Hyde and Holt feel ;)





The past 36 hours I couldn’t get off of the sensation/"bad Feeling" Bruce Kirby launched an all-out attack into my life as a common sailor and boat owner of a nearly brand new Laser™ Radial built by LP Ltd at Long Buckby UK.



But, I remembered to words that an old friend (of TX) many years ago told here to us at TLF: You acquired lawfully a boat at your country. Whether the old fart that designed, built and sold her to you likes it or not: It’s is your boat! He can’t “boat”-jack her away of you, if you don’t agree to let him do so. That’s a soothing opinion to me.



What am I able to do, as one of the over 200000? I gave a “like” to the announcement of the ILCA at their Facebook website. The more “likes” there are done, the better it is for Tracy to argue against the heavy waves Kirby actually hits into the waterfront.

I would like to see also an over 10.000 “like”s at a related TLF poll, but till now there is no related poll here in the moment (I am to stupid to initiate such a poll upon in the first line at TLF-Politics discussions section here, sorry). Jon D., a serious long-time member of TLF (of the US East Coast) at this ILCA Facebook website, I mentioned above, linked a related petition form sheet to the ILCA to the “change.org” Internet website. I consider signing it. Would this be helpful to sign there? Opinions here at TLF on that?

Here you find Jon's petitition:
http://www.change.org/petitions/int...n-consider-adopting-itself-as-the-torch-class


P.S. Kirby doesn’t say anything to Laser™ Radial. Actually, in his hubris/megalomania related to common sailors of Laser™ Standard wanton let by side, that Laser™ Radial and Laser(TM) 4.7 are independent “ISAF recommended” sailboats with own/independend world championships, too (not to forget to mention: the Laser™ Radial is “the” single-handed boat for the ladies at the Olympic Games)! The Kirby Torch(TM) in the moment not even is “ISAF recommended”…. Actually a Kirby Torch(TM) “Radial” or “4.7” not even is mentioned at Kirby’s new homepage! This is an insult to any serious/ambitious recreational sailing or racing male/female youth/senior/master Laser™ Radial and Laser™) 4.7 sailor!

BTW:

Not to forget to mention: some serious workers at the Laser™-builders shipyards f.e. at UK/USA, probably soon lose their jobs and income. You all know, I am not really a big friend of several of the ILCA Office (exception: Tracy) nor I am a big friend of LP/UK, but in this case I am with Tracy and also I am with the innocent workers of LP at Long Buckby (UK)/Rhode Island (USA)/Japanese workers at PS-Japan!

To give some of those nameless workers real faces one only has to visit LP’s Facebook website and there view the actual video about how a Laser™ hull is produced! My thoughts are with those workers in the same way, f.e like with the many workers of the Opel car factory at Bochum/GER. To explain: GM/USA in the moment starts to destroy the Opel at the GER (and Vauxhall at UK) and begins this battle with the closing of the Opel-factory at Bochum, less than 20 km away of my home, another tragedy in the atmosphere close around to me…



Ciao

LooserLu
{Member of the Argentinean “99%-Laser™”-Class, Region Europe, District GER}
 
But, I remembered to words that an old friend (of TX) many years ago told here to us at TLF: You acquired lawfully a boat at your country. Whether the old fart that designed, built and sold her to you likes it or not: It’s is your boat! He can’t “boat”-jack her away of you, if you don’t agree to let him do so. That’s a soothing opinion to me.

That you purchased the boat legally is not the issue. The issue is whether LP built the boat legally or whether it is counterfeit. If I buy a Rolex from a man at Euston station for £20 it is my watch - might be worthless because it was not actually made by Rolex, not to Rolex quality and standards, etc.

I'm afraid ILCA has already once taken the wrong side in this and I no longer have any time for them. Whilst ILCA morphing into ITCA would probably be a sensible move, I also feel it is time for a clean sweep (and after a "clean sweep" I would immediately join again because I do consider class associations as important).

You also have to remember that ILCA is one of the bodies being taken to court by Kirby (and understandably so as well) - so they are hardly likely to welcome the action! But they sort of "put themselves in harms way". They may have a valid defence, maybe they don't (as we have only seen Kirby's documentation and they might e.g. have disputed the Builder Terminations issued by Kirby to LP and hence were right to continue issuing plaques; or many other possibilities). I certainly hope they do have a decent defence because otherwise they have been highly irresponsible and deserve what might be coming. But I would imagine we will not be seeing their defence until the court case (depending on how US courts work).

Personally, given the information in the public domain I think Kirby has been put in a position where he has little choice other than to take that actions now in progress.

I'm not a member of Facebook but the only petition I can see is one asking ILCA to tell the membership more about what is going on and to consider all options http://www.change.org/petitions/int...n-consider-adopting-itself-as-the-torch-class (but I wont sign change.org petitions after I got SPAMed from them after signing my 1st one there). And the ILCA is pretty bad compared to other class associations I have been a member of.

I believe that to leave everything "in-limbo" whilst the court case works its way to conclusion would kill the class pretty completely. No new boats, few spares. Basically LP would not know where they stand and cannot build boats (without plaques) so would not buy stock of other parts, etc. So as things stand, the Torch is the only way the class can stay alive. As I said, I left ILCA because I was "less than impressed" with them. Their action through the current situation seems just daft (is it the same people making the same flawed decisions?). I can see it makes sense for ILCA to morph into ITCA but I also think it might be better in the long term (and for the sailors) to let the ILCA go the same way as LPE and for the class to form a new ITCA which recognises the membership and the importance of the membership.

Ian
 
....
Many of us think Bruce Kirby's direction is the right one for the class and in the members' best interest. ....

Greg, exact this is the point! "IS" B.K's direction the right one etc.? What is the right? Could we trust into the ILCA's work or do they do something wrong. It is totally unclear here at my country. F.e. at GER most "TGIF"-boat sailors just dont' care or in the Moment do have a not objective opinion, in lack of ENOUGH serious informations or simply to say: "English" is not their language ... understand me?

There is many to say about this pro and contra by other not native English speaking sailors, but f.e. even my English is to poor to write really exact at TLF, what I really want to express, imagine other that perhaps ~ 1 time a year read a seasonal greetings card in English.... but like to sail there "TGIF"-Dinghy, like they have ever done. And now Kirby comes and says "join the army".... But, they pay fees to ILCA or national sail classes for the "TGIF", f.e. do they have to pay 2 fees in future, for a while etc etc.

No-no, 1st I more believe strong in Tracy's work, I secretly have watched him acting at Boltenhagen ILCA Meeting, during my visit there. I wasn't convinced about Heini/Jeff/Luc... For me it is a bit like in a Wimbledon Tennis final match in the moment: "serve and volley"... Lets wait (although ist hard to stay calm, even for an edge head like me....) and see what the ILCA is doing. (At GER we say: "Abwarten und Tee trinken"...) They (aka Tracy etc.) ARE our voice.

Another example: Ian Bruce failed in the try introduce his Byte CII at many countries at Europe (f.e. search for races at GER or a national class at GER for the CII). Kirby in the moment is doing the same mistakes like Ian has done. Needless to say: in my opinion the CII is wonderful boat, but all here at GER sail Laser Standard or LaserRadial or Laser 4.7 or Europe-Dinghy not CII or Mega-Byte. The mistakes for the TGIF-boat have been done during the time BK and I.Bruce tried to get the TGIF "IRYU/ISAFrecommended" in the beginning of the 1970. In German I could figure out exact what htis mistakes have been (and would be able to hold a speech about that aspects, a complete evening long), but not in English, I am so sorry! Now BK is going to try to repeat/reiterate the same mistakes with contracts to builders, trademark rights etc and the relationship to the ISAF... but ISAF is not stupid / they sure have learnt their lesson for the early 1970, related to the TGIF.


For the rest of your reply: I agree, and I appologize to mention workers of Hyde/North/Holt(Allen) etc. etc. they probably share the same "Karma" like those workers of LP USA/UK/PS-Jap.

Ciao
Lu
 
... The issue is whether LP built the boat legally or whether it is counterfeit. If I buy a Rolex from a man at Euston station for £20 it is my watch - might be worthless because it was not actually made by Rolex, not to Rolex quality and standards, etc. ...
Ian
Ian, believe me, this was nearly exact my question to GER Customs Authority in a serious phone call to their officers!!! Later, yesterday I also discussed that aspects to my lawyer! There has been a light chance for BK to get over me: If I would have bought the boat f.e. at AUS or Rhode Island /USA. But, I purchased my boat from the GER dealer (this is "inside of the EU-borders"), GER Customs wouldn't come to boat-jack my "in the EU made"-Radial. And additionally: the GER/EU trademark laws are a bit different to the US laws. BK can't do a "written warning" combined by a "claim for damages" (in GER: "Kostenpflichtige Abmahnung und Schadenersatzklage wegen Verstoß gegen das Marken Gesetz") against me, like Rolex could do, if I would buy a only 50,-€ prized Rolex at f.e. St.Anton/Austria. First he has to win the court proceeding at the USA.
P.S.: Thanks for the spam-warning about change.org Thats the last I want to have.. a gazillion additional spam emails of such a website :confused:

Ciao
Lu
 
I have made an effort to find out exactly what has been and is going on. I wish I had sufficient knowledge to express an opinion about this matter.
 
Ian, believe me, this was nearly exact my question to GER Customs Authority in a serious phone call to their officers!!! Later, yesterday I also discussed that aspects to my lawyer! There has been a light chance for BK to get over me: If I would have bought the boat f.e. at AUS or Rhode Island /USA. But, I purchased my boat from the GER dealer (this is "inside of the EU-borders"), GER Customs wouldn't come to boat-jack my "in the EU made"-Radial. And additionally: the GER/EU trademark laws are a bit different to the US laws. BK can't do a "written warning" combined by a "claim for damages" (in GER: "Kostenpflichtige Abmahnung und Schadenersatzklage wegen Verstoß gegen das Marken Gesetz") against me, like Rolex could do, if I would buy a only 50,-€ prized Rolex at f.e. St.Anton/Austria. First he has to win the court proceeding at the USA.
P.S.: Thanks for the spam-warning about change.org Thats the last I want to have.. a gazillion additional spam emails of such a website :confused:

Ciao
Lu

I cannot see anybody could come and take you boat from you. I agree with them (and you) in that respect. However, what you purchased may not have been a Laser. OK, you purchased in good faith and were misled by those you purchased from (depending on the outcome of the court case.

But that is all totally academic as Kirby has included ALL Lasers as legal in the Torch Class. I don't quite understand where this "come and take my boat" has appeared from because through all this nobody has ever said that boats without royalty payments by the builder will be re-claimed to be owned (and taken) by Bruce Kirby! Like if I buy a Rolex for £25 from some dodgy guy outside Euston station. When it turns-out it is not a Rolex, Rolex do not come and take my watch from me. I is just that what I have is not worth anything because it isn't a Rolex. I might go back to the guy who sold it to me and the Police and courts might have something to say.

But who is trying to take you Laser ? Because Kirby certainly isnt and is even saying it is a completely legal Torch.

Ian
 
…However, what you purchased may not have been a Laser. …

In the moment the situation still is: For LP Europe, by LP Europe official licensed GER boat dealer, the ILCA, the DLAS, the ISAF: she is a “made in the UK”-“Laser™ Radial™”, what I bought.

BUT, GER courts here think different than the common humans here:

If “someone” (f.e.: legal holder of a TM or holder on the right of a name or patent-holder, wherever on this globe) “files a charge” because of breaking GER trademark-/name-laws, GER authority-attorneys 1st only look to: what is the related law to decide about and is this law violated by the customer. I had to investigate the same, the past 3 days. I had to check all the variations in case of me.

Yes, it sounds all a bit “academic”, but it isn’t.

Imagine, BK is gone/passes by (and here I like to wish him all the best for a long and lucky life, much health for that he lives twice as long as Methuselah, I doesn’t begrudge it to him) and his legal heirs decide: to not think like BK in the moment , just to get more profit and check for plagiarism (counterfeit) at the Laser™, based on that that the US court decides. (I don’t know what happens in future, of course only BK knows how his legacy is regulated). His heirs for the next 30 years here at GER have the right to file a charge at GER prosecution service, if BK wins the actual US lawsuit. No matter if he actual says Laserites are very welcome at the Kirby Torch class, also their Laser™-toys.


But, yes, correct said, that is all a bit “ academic theory”, what I am talking about if one is outside of my country… but it is my karma to have been student of drLaser™ at former TLF-discussions, many years ago and to recommend on this or that aspect, related to Laser™-affairs …:confused:

BTW: I also write here, because perhaps other at TLF reading foreign Laserites have the same thoughts at their countries, but don’t have any idea in the moment, how to deal with this situation.

…Like if I buy a Rolex for £25 from some dodgy guy outside Euston station. When it turns-out it is not a Rolex, Rolex do not come and take my watch from me. I is just that what I have is not worth anything because it isn't a Rolex. I might go back to the guy who sold it to me and the Police and courts might have something to say. …

In this case, the situation is more difficult at GER, Ian. The GER police initiated probably by a GER prosecution service checks if you are a company and bought a bunch of Rolex-coutnerfeit’s or only one. As long as you own only one, they don’t care, as long you don’t use it (don’t wear the wrist watch at your arm). If you re-sell it or use it, they take the counterfeit and attorneys sanction/penalize you. GER is a crazy country in this aspects, isn’t it … Very-very difficult for me to explain here and to correct translate in English ….:oops:


…But who is trying to take you Laser …

Ian, believe me or not, such a “boat-jack” at GER really happened to a GER Laserite in the past… finally/ at least: in reason of / based on the trademark contracts of BK that in the moment still are legit! (And: No, I don’t tell here openly more about this “boat-jack”, in respect to the privacy of this Laserite and also: to tell correct all the details is to much to translate etc. etc.

As told, I am still calm in the moment. You know, I am a weird/sick crazy guy because I am a GER (civil-)engineer/M.O.S, you know…. All the day long, many years now, at work, I have to check for the fact always: Is everything /each case /possible disaster “under control”, at my Projects / construction areas aka: is 110% all best provided forallcontingencies, you know…:D

Ciao
LooserLu
 
… but it is my karma to have been student of drLaser™ at former TLF-discussions, many years ago and to recommend on this or that aspect, related to Laser™-affairs …:confused:

You know, that's the one voice we haven't heard through this whole fiasco. I'm sure drLaser™ would have quite interesting opinions to express.

I'm gradually starting to think that Kirby and the Torch class are the only real path forward. As others have mentioned, it's largely a 1%/99% issue. LP and Rastegar obviously don't care about weekend sailors. The ILCA and ISAF have been very disappointing through this whole issue. They communicate very little and seem mostly concerned with protecting the class' Olympic status. Kirby is at least attempting to reach out to rank-and-file class members with his website. I think the key is to get the national-level associations in the fold. Whatever emerges from this situation, it's going to be the same volunteers running the class and organizing regattas.

So say the "Torch Class" and the "Laser Class" merge. I don't really care for the "Torch" name, but that is only really going to affect 1%-ers and those buying new boats. Everybody else I sail with will keep calling them "Lasers". Then maybe LP will go away, and the builders wil be able to re-acquire the "Laser" trademark in a few years.
 
You know, that's the one voice we haven't heard through this whole fiasco. I'm sure drLaser™ would have quite interesting opinions to express. ....

"Torrid", Shevy just permitted me to quote the following to you:

"I'm alive and in good health, but I'm NOT analyzing the Laser/Torch situation. I still love the boat, but I have nothing to give to this Class who has been so unkind and dishonest to its sailors in country after country"

Wished I could sail with him in the moment, but he lives and sails ~3000 km distance to the south of of where I live and sail ....:oops:

Ciao and: "TGIF"!!! Time to think about to have a visit to the Club for havin' some fresh air and a tasty GER beer ( ... "Krombacher Pils" ;) ) for the brain ...
Lu
 
Wonder how long it will take the Torch class to gain International status and be able to hold a Worlds? Given BK sued ISAF, I can imagine ISAF may be in no hurry to grant the Torch international status when it becomes eligible. Until Torches can hold a worlds, I guess the Laser Worlds will continue? i wonder if at some point there will be a Laser Worlds and a Torch Worlds? Altho the fact that Laser sails, new hulls, etc. will be unobtainable probably makes continuing Laser worlds highly unlikely. This sure is a weird situation!
 
Lu. That photo of yours is a nice thing. It is fun to see who is doing the typing. My puppy shot to the left of this post should have been updated years ago.

dog-typing.gif
 
Find a dealer with one with a plaque (I think at this point they all have them) and buy it. As of a few weeks back LP in Rhode Island had quite a few in the warehouse, both US and UK made.
 
I'd hold off though, wait to see how it pans out.
You never know, the torch could well work out to be cheaper than the current "Lasers"
 
Any suggestions on buying a new laser...

Same as 'Icetea'advised: If you plan to race very competitive: "You never know..."! So, hold on now, in the moment, if you plan to buy a new boat (For me: about 6000US$/€ is a lot of money!), till the 'Crisis at Laserland' is more openly!

If you plan to mostly more sail recreational, beside of ambitious racings, I would say: 'beldar boathead' is correct. Or much better: sail on, another season, your "USA 182772"-"TGIF"-Dinghy.

From outside of the NA-Continent ... Just my 2 €-cent to advice &
Ciao
LooserLu
 
It would be interesting if they standardized all of the fittings and went all Harken for everything if by simple economics they could get the prices down on the fittings. I'm thinking vang, ratchet block, mainsheet/traveler blocks, down haul, outhaul. Make it all Harken. Get rid of those old school plastic Holt blocks forever. I hope they start with a radial cut full sail. This is the perfect opportunity to make the changes they've already decided to eventually implement.
 
It would be interesting if they standardized all of the fittings and went all Harken for everything if by simple economics they could get the prices down on the fittings. I'm thinking vang, ratchet block, mainsheet/traveler blocks, down haul, outhaul. Make it all Harken. Get rid of those old school plastic Holt blocks forever. I hope they start with a radial cut full sail. This is the perfect opportunity to make the changes they've already decided to eventually implement.

For the immediate future, the Torch will need the same fittings and same sail as the existing Laser. BK isn't trying to sell a new boat, he's trying to sell 40 years of history and 200,000+ boats to compete against. Any changes should be rolled out for new and existing boats at the same time, or the whole scheme falls apart.
 
Yea! cheaper would be good! I remember in 1974 a group of sailors bought 10 lasers @ $600 each. If you plug $600 into the bls.gov CPI Inflation Calculator the same buying power today would be $2825.55....Lasers today have outperformed the CPI by more than a double....
 
Wow. Imagine how many more people would be sailing if they remained that price....that's less than most second hand boats go for.
 
Lower the price, sell more, make up for lower margins through higher volume?

I doubt they would make more...the market is too diverse, most of the people who would buy new boats are doing so... BUT it would get mote people out on the water playing the game...at that is more important than anything else!
 
No one has mentioned the sails and the buttons needed to be a class legal sail. Are the buttons restricted in the same way as plaques? In other words will sails become scarce whilst this is all going on or are ISAF still happily issuing sail buttons to LPE/Hydes/North etc for laser sails?
 
No one has mentioned the sails and the buttons needed to be a class legal sail. Are the buttons restricted in the same way as plaques? In other words will sails become scarce whilst this is all going on or are ISAF still happily issuing sail buttons to LPE/Hydes/North etc for laser sails?

I guess that will depend on who the royalties are payable to for the sails. They might be payable to ILCA/ISAF in which case there is no issue and the legal action seems to be specific to hulls, issuing of hull plaques and use of the construction manual. As far as I am aware new sails are pretty hard to come by at the moment anyway....
 
No issue with sail buttons. Not sure how LPE has the deals structured in Europe with their remaining dealers, but in the US/Canada, dealers order the sails direct from North Sails, so there shouldn't be a supply issue (if there is, just try another dealer)
 
Hyde are/were the supplier in the UK. I am told they are not making sails for the Laser at the moment for various reasons.
 
And in breaking news... ISAF just approved the change to the ILCA Fundamental Rule which was was passed by Laser Class members in 2012. The amended rule allows ISAF and ILCA to approve Laser builders who have the right to use the Laser trademark, even if they are not approved by Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc.

http://www.sailing.org/news/34222.php
 
I thought the ISAF had rejected this rule change previously.

BK is surely only going to be more determined now and may seek in interim injunction banning the product of the boat under copyright pending the outcome of the court case.

The ISAF could also leave themselves wide open to further litigation by making this move.

What was already a mess has just been made even worse.
 
And in breaking news... ISAF just approved the change to the ILCA Fundamental Rule which was was passed by Laser Class members in 2012. The amended rule allows ISAF and ILCA to approve Laser builders who have the right to use the Laser trademark, even if they are not approved by Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc.

http://www.sailing.org/news/34222.php

Maybe I'm reading between the lines, but the way the statement is worded it seems the ISAF are more interested in the Laser trademark than the boat it's attached to.
 

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