Accelerating off the line

fosq

New Member
I often find myself stopped on the line in good position only to be gassed from above or below shortly after the start. When everyone's camped out on the line, what's the best way to accelerate (sail trim, kinetics, etc.)?
 
I often find myself stopped on the line in good position only to be gassed from above or below shortly after the start. When everyone's camped out on the line, what's the best way to accelerate (sail trim, kinetics, etc.)?

What's the best way to accelerate? A fraction of a second before the guys above you and below you.
 
I often find myself stopped on the line in good position only to be gassed from above or below shortly after the start. When everyone's camped out on the line, what's the best way to accelerate (sail trim, kinetics, etc.)?

Rule your space so that you can foot, or so I've heard.
 
When you hear the mainsheet ratchets going off around you, you need to get on it too. Otherwise you're gassed. Having some kind of hole to leeward is pretty important for this.
 
I think I'll be using the 5 horse power diesel engine my insurance company insists I have on my Laser !! I still cannot get them to provide me insurance for a Laser without the engine - so I might as well use it. Maybe I should call the manufacturers to find where they have hidden it on the boat.

(Sorry - a bit "off-topic")

Ian
 
I think I'll be using the 5 horse power diesel engine my insurance company insists I have on my Laser !! I still cannot get them to provide me insurance for a Laser without the engine - so I might as well use it. Maybe I should call the manufacturers to find where they have hidden it on the boat.

(Sorry - a bit "off-topic")

Ian


An off topic suggestion. Why don't you call or e-mail your district secretary to find out who insures Lasers in France? That's what they are there for. Or you could try making your own thread here--Who Insures Lasers in France? It's hard for the right people to see the question when it's buried in another post.
 
Why don't you call or e-mail your district secretary to find out who insures Lasers in France?

Tried that - I don't think the French Laser Association exists any more (at least to to any sort of questions; though I understand they are still taking people's subscriptions). My "off-topic" comment was more a cynical remark as today I've found out my policy has now been sent to the insurance company Head Office in Paris to try and have "the engine removed" (but you have to laugh - don't you).
Ian
 
Tips for starting:

Stay as close as possible to the boat that is to windward when starting but not too close so you will get gassed. You want to have as big of a hole as possible to leeward for acceleration. When starting I always try and keep my bow poked out, but my sail numbers hidden that way I have clean air, but I'm not flagrantly over early. I will begin accelerating around 8 seconds, I will head down and use my hole by reaching to get speed, then I will head up to upwind at about 2 seconds, if people are beginning to go, then I will go sooner, but I always try and have a little bit of lead on the entire fleet. If I see that the boats to windward of me are closer or past the line, then I will go up with them and try and get ahead by a little bit.

Also, I try and set up near people that always seem to hang back a little on the start, what I will do is get a good line sight and then I will set up about 1/2-1 boatlength below the line, and many times people will think I am over and will set up with their bows even with my midship-transom, I will then go at about 8 seconds that way I have a clear lead over the people around me and I have clear air and nobody to pinch me off.
 
ok well first of all im not big on sitting at the line... i go for the clean waters out to the port side of the line... time it so i hit the buoy at 0, tack out of ppls way, then I have clean air.... But with what you are doing... Absolutely DO NOT be a follower and pull in ur sheet when everyone else does... you have to be a leader... point low, get speed up, and shoot the line while they are all pulling their sails in
Oh BTW, please stop posting stuff about insurance... make a post er something for that
 
ok well first of all im not big on sitting at the line... i go for the clean waters out to the port side of the line... time it so i hit the buoy at 0, tack out of ppls way, then I have clean air.... But with what you are doing... Absolutely DO NOT be a follower and pull in ur sheet when everyone else does... you have to be a leader... point low, get speed up, and shoot the line while they are all pulling their sails in
Oh BTW, please stop posting stuff about insurance... make a post er something for that


Curious. If you go off the line at the pin, (assuming the pin is the favored end and you nail it which is difficult in any decent sized fleet) at the gun, with speed, (because you don't luff) why would you tack onto port into the path of a whole bunch of Starboard boats to clear your air? You've just laid out a very difficult start plan.
 
Curious. If you go off the line at the pin, (assuming the pin is the favored end and you nail it which is difficult in any decent sized fleet) at the gun, with speed, (because you don't luff) why would you tack onto port into the path of a whole bunch of Starboard boats to clear your air? You've just laid out a very difficult start plan.

A good example of a race like this is at Orange Bowl 2006. I believe it was the second day and the pin was flagrantly favored, however, the breeze was coming out of the right. So, I would always try and set up near the pin, flop over right away and attempt to port-tack the fleet. The people that got across the starboard tackers led the race by a mile. First couple times we had general recalls, finally we got a start off, I flopped over, ducked one boat, but in the end was in top five after 20 seconds.
 
I would think that a pin end start being a "GOOD plan" would totally depend on the circumstances and fleet. One's starting plan needs to be appropriate to the conditions and to say "it is a GOOD plan" in a broad context is something of a generalisation (not too helpful).

For me and in larger boats a pin end start and crossing the fleet on port can be a bit of a challenge (one needs to be brave about it), Less of an issue in smaller boats.

Another aspect that I think is important to consider is "the fleet". Getting in with "the scrum" on a crowded can often high risk in that in a tight bunch most boats will emerge in foul air and even if at the preferred end will be at a disadvantage. Depending on the line (and conditions) I tend to opt for as clear air as possible; though to what extent would depend on the bias and fleet. Again, for me clear air and this better speed and pointing can make up for a slightly worse position.

Another aspect to consider is freedom to tack, particularly in shifty conditions. Being in the middle of a group can sometimes lock you on a tack. On a short line, tacking onto port will give you a slightly lifted wind as you cross through the fleet but it will be slowed and really disturbed.

And I take cbyc_radial_sailors complaint about my post relating to insurance with exception. It is not your forum and if you don't like a post then complain to the administrator. If we are going to see "digs" like this then this is not the forum I thought it was and I will be going elsewhere.

Ian
 
Back to the topic of accelerating off the line............. First, be in front as it's hard to acceleerate in someones gas. Second, you need a hole to leeward to drive down into for a few seconds before the gun. Third, lean in and get some leeward heel, steer the bow down and lean out real quick while trimming the main in. This gives you one good windward "pump" and will help get you going.
 
I'll ditto the hole part. There are a couple of things to remember when making the hole:
lasers are incapable of actually staying in exactly the same place; they're too light and will float. As a result, the whole fleet is moving a little bit and you can take advantage of that by controlling leeway.
the hole should be small enough so that it looks like another boat will fit with inches on either side. I try and keep my nose down so it looks even smaller.
Secondly, to make sure you don't get cooked to windward you can luff them way up for a few seconds just before you accelerate- they'll be stuck, leaving you with plenty of room.
 
Here's a video I have of me and 2 other Laser sailors doing a practice start. I'm the guy with the black lifey, I started a little bit late but thats because of the size of the line and not wanting to be OCS (last 3 starts we had done we were all OCS). Good points of this is I accelerated in my hole, I got a nice roll in there, and I got my bow poked out from the guy to windward. Sorry bout the bad resolution but it gives an idea of what to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrsgdzLl0Fo
 
Good example. Too bad no one has any footage of a big-fleet start.

Note he was exactly on the line at go while the other two boats were a little back. He also bore off and so hit the line with more speed than the other two.
 
Good example. Too bad no one has any footage of a big-fleet start.

Note he was exactly on the line at go while the other two boats were a little back. He also bore off and so hit the line with more speed than the other two.

When I get home later I will look through the videos from the regatta and see if I have any good ones from the actual regatta starts.
 
Not that this hasn't been a productive topic, but most of the responses sort of dodged my question. I didn't ask how to put myself in a good starting position but how to accelerate from stopped when already in a good position. My problem isn't making a lane or defending a good runway, but going from stop to go. Do you have a starting "gear?" What is the best method for rolling when stopped or nearly so? etc.

Good video..windward boat had good acceleration. I usually have my vang on harder and try to avoid finishing my roll into a windward heel. Even so, his acceleration was far better than mine.
 
Acceleration and positioning go hand in hand, Steve Cockerill gives a good account on his cd rom that the starting pump needs to be done with the boat heading low so the pump drives you forward rather than sideways, this obviously requires a good gap to leeward.

I think the big mistake is pumping while pinched, it really doesn't make you go forwards at all!
 
fosq, on the start I always have my vang totally off so I don't get caught in irons from the constant luffing. I will head down at 8 seconds, build a crapload of speed, head up while rolling the boat and flattening the boat hard at around 1 second to go.
 
fosq, on the start I always have my vang totally off so I don't get caught in irons from the constant luffing. I will head down at 8 seconds, build a crapload of speed, head up while rolling the boat and flattening the boat hard at around 1 second to go.

Why would vang tension make bearing off more difficult?
 
As you sheet in more vang tension makes the sail power up from the leech, this moves the centre of effort a long way behind the centre of lateral resistance causing the boat to round up to windward. Try bearing off in a big breeze with the vang on, it just won't happen.
 
As you sheet in more vang tension makes the sail power up from the leech, this moves the centre of effort a long way behind the centre of lateral resistance causing the boat to round up to windward. Try bearing off in a big breeze with the vang on, it just won't happen.

Oh yeah, good call
 
I crank the vang on right after my pump, this helps the boat to head up so it reduces the amount of steering I have to do also.

TC
 
Bump.

This is a good thread and I realized I've got the same problem. On Wednesday nights we usually have 6 or 8 boats out, but the cagey old guy ;-) setting up the course usually sets up a tight little starting line sort of like "musical chairs" so there's only room for one or three boats fewer than that.

Anyhow, last week I positioned myself, I thought, for a great start.

I had a hole. I was at the front of the pack. I was stopped.

The whistle went. Everyone went. I was still stopped and the whole fleet rolled me. Drat!

There are some good thoughts in this thread on accelerating the boat. I'd like to solicit a few more.

How far back from the line do you set up your boat? 7 feet? (half a laser-length?) Less??

Assuming you're more or less bow-to-wind protecting your hole, how many seconds before the gun do you begin to bear off? How many seconds before you sheet in?

How many "pumps" of the tiller does it usually take to go from roughly "head to wind" down to the close-hauled/close-reach heading where you can trim in the main and accelerate the boat?

Do you use a different technique if it's blowing 5-10 vs. 15-20? How does your technique change?
 
in a long line with a big fleet, forget the gun, forget the line. Go with the pack you are in. If you are over early, everyone is. If they call it back, it doesn't matter. If they let it go, you got a good start. It's the guy to windward you must be focused on, not the line or the gun.
 
Good point, Rob.

To answer bj moose's questions, you have to start accelerating with the people around you, even if you think you'll be over. Usually it's about 10-15 seconds. It's important to use the hole if you have it. Keep the hole and get on the line at 2-4 seconds or so, then bear off to take up the hole and squirt past the boat above and below you that couldn't, because you took their hole.
I usually setup right on the line, maybe 1-2 lengths off, which is a habit i'm trying to break. You'll be better off staying back some, if you can get back into the front row. That way, you can still accelerate but you'll be higher up and will bunch up everyone above you who was right on the line and has no where to go but down.
This doesn't really change with windspeed- the acceleration time is still the same- the heavier the air, the faster you accelerate, but the higher the max. speed is, so the curve stays about the same.
 

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