Official Sail with no button

J

Jonny_C

New Member
Hi,

I have recently bought a sail on ebay that claimed to be a genuine laser sail. When it arrived i gave it a once over and saw that it has a laser patch on it with the company logo but no red button to show that it's race legal.

Do laser make alternate sails without buttons or does this sound like a fake?

Thanks very much

Jonny
 
Jonny_C said:
Hi,

I have recently bought a sail on ebay that claimed to be a genuine laser sail. When it arrived i gave it a once over and saw that it has a laser patch on it with the company logo but no red button to show that it's race legal.

Do laser make alternate sails without buttons or does this sound like a fake?

Thanks very much

Jonny
Click to expand...

Probably depends on how old the sail is. I forget when they went to the buttons.
 
Jonny_C said:
Hi,

I have recently bought a sail on ebay that claimed to be a genuine laser sail. When it arrived i gave it a once over and saw that it has a laser patch on it with the company logo but no red button to show that it's race legal.

Do laser make alternate sails without buttons or does this sound like a fake?

Thanks very much

Jonny
Click to expand...

As a measurer, I'd would not pass the sail, I'd say that there is a 99% chance of the sail being a fake.

The sails with no buttons are either 3.2 oz sails or the laser patch near the tack had some wording on it which I'd remember if I saw it "new something another", in the current weight cloth, there may have been a period where it's the current patch but no button.

If there is a company logo, instead of a laser patch then it might be a 3.2 oz sail dating from the early 70's (very unlikely) or the sail is a fake.

What company logo is on the sail?
 
Ok, that wording sounds correct for the 3.8 ox sails prior to the introduction of the button. The sail might be legal.
 
EddieDingle said:
what is the point of the button?
Click to expand...

1. In theory, it helps the ILCA org prevent counterfit sails from being used ;)
2. It helps ILCA track how many sails North and Hyde build for them (along the lines of "counterfitting" by the authorized sailmakers
3. It gives ILCA a little more income on the sail, ie an "ILCA user tax" if you will
 
Deimos said:
Even without the button ?

Ian
Click to expand...

Without the button, a measurer probably should not permit the person to sail with it. However, there was a period where some sails had buttons and others didn't just because the sails were several months older. Similarly about two years ago I had someone turn up to our district masters championship with a very ancient boat that still had an Elstom sail on it. It was definitely a 3.2 oz sail, was very ancient and it was only because I knew that Elstrom had originally supplied the sails although that predates my involvement in the class that, that I let it be used. May be I screwed up and it was an illegal sail, but I doubt with the condition of the sail it was anything but the original sail supplied with the boat.

It's unfair as a measurer to prevent someone sailing because they don't have the latest gear. But someone turning up with gear which is old should expect to be more heavily scrutinised and possibly have that gear rejected because the measurer doesn't have the experience to recognise that a piece of gear as being legal even through it doesn't meet the current specifications.

From a distant memory, I think the buttons were introduced when we became an Olympic class, so 1993, this new sail is roughly 17 years old. So for a measurer to reognise that it might be a legal sail, they probably have to have 20 years experience in sailing lasers. With me dropping the measuring, that experience is leaving the class and in future I would assume that what is technically legal will not be permitted to be used in my district because of the inexperience of who ever takes on the role of measurer.
 
Jonny_C said:
The sail is quite new and the patch near the tack says "New Numbers 3.8" under the Laser Logo.
Click to expand...

I have a sail just like that - though it came with my boat from the previous owner so no idea what its history is.

IMG_0550.jpg


IMG_0551.jpg
 
Alan

We gather from your post that you are retiring as a measurer and consider this to be a great loss.

Your experience cannot be replaced

More particularly we value your contributions to this forum which we always read with respect

Steve/Alex
 
AlanD said:
Without the button, a....

From a distant memory, I think the buttons were introduced when we became an Olympic class, so 1993, this new sail is roughly 17 years old. So for a measurer to reognise that it might be a legal sail, they probably have to have 20 years experience in sailing lasers. With me dropping the measuring, that experience is leaving the class and in future I would assume that what is technically legal will not be permitted to be used in my district because of the inexperience of who ever takes on the role of measurer.
Click to expand...

The sail is absolutely original. I bought my laser from the italian laser distributor many years ago about 10, and it has no button.
 
hs59 said:
The sail is absolutely original. I bought my laser from the italian laser distributor many years ago about 10, and it has no button.
Click to expand...

No, it's just likely to be legal. It very easy to counterfeit a sail, including putting on stickers etc and for that matter the "sail button". I'm sure I went and spoke to one of my old suppliers in China they could supply a box of 1000 copy laser buttons for about $150, most of which would be in tooling costs. Adding security features like the button just makes counterfeiting more difficult, it doesn't eliminate it. But having a brand new sail suddenly appearing well over a decade and closer to two decades after that incarnation stopped being produced should be closely examined. Even the OP was rightly skeptical over it being authentic.
 
Hi.

From all what I know:

If one uses the "original builder supplied" Laserparts produced at the time the hull itself is produced, then it is legal, but that not means one passes successfull the mesurement at a major sailing event.

F.e 1: One is able to use an original Laser Elvstroem Sail from Toronto/CAN on a boat that was produced at Canada that former time, but I would say, with a chance of >95%, the measurement will not be successful (keyword: ... f.e. "measurement diagrams"). Also, like already been told above somewhere: This old stuff is really slow. No serious racing Laserite would take it to sail into the top 1/3 with such stuff on a major event.

To the other side: it is permitted to use an brand new "original builder supplied" 3.8 oz Laser sail with ILCA button on a Laser of f.e. 1972. But, perhaps the old hull doesn't pass successful the measurement....

F.e. 2: This original 3.8 oz sail without ILCA button above is classlegal, but only if used on a boat of those times. But if I would use it on a 1997er or younger hull, it would be against the classrules. Its a measurers decision how big the spectrum of "years of change" this issue concerns is. I guess, the ILCA Chief Measurer sure has made directives for this issue, has he?

Like already told: The measurement not only views to one part of the boat, but for legality of the complete boat under current rules. No matter, this belongs brand new boats in the same way like the first ones, a curio, the "builders manual", makes it possible. This also makes our special sailing class unique.

LooserLu
 
I understand what you're saying Laserlu, but to my knowledge it isn't correct except in a couple of specific class rules, i.e the use of timber foils and sail numbers not meeting the current specs.
 
AlanD said:
I understand what you're saying Laserlu, but to my knowledge it isn't correct except in a couple of specific class rules, i.e the use of timber foils and sail numbers not meeting the current specs.
Click to expand...

Alan, you may are able to give Clive or JL-Michon the hint to give a precise answer (perhaps in a nice small essay in one of the future the Laser World magazines or at the measurers corner at the ILCA Homepage, thanks) to what original old/new gear is permitted, if used on different old/new boats and what not. Only Michon is permitted to interpret the rules, we both know that. For my understanding of what I try to explain, I am not measurer, the Fundamental Rule is the proof. My point of discussion in this are not the wodden baldes of couse or the sail numbers, that is precise explained at the rules.

LooserLu
 
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