Right of way

How close do you let someone get until you figure they're not going to give you the right of way?
I was close hauled and the other, a 30 ft'er was running free and we were on a collision course. If I remember right, that means I have the right of way.

In a tiny fish, he probably seemed closer than he really was, but he was close enough to make me nervous and wasn't changing course. I didn't have a steady wind, so I turned into the wind to stop to avoid a collision (here, you can't trust that people know the rules). Seconds later, he finally changed course and started heading right towards me, then throws up his hands as if frustrated with me.

If you were on Starboard tack, then you had rights. If you were on port tack, then he had rights. Of course big boats are to always be aware of smaller craft, but the reverse usually happens.

cshoffmann said:

If you were on Starboard tack, then you had rights. If you were on port tack, then he had rights. Of course big boats are to always be aware of smaller craft, but the reverse usually happens.

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Yes, I was on starboard tack. But when do you give up and figure they're not giving you the rights?

I was always taught that you have the right of way when someone gives it to you.

Wavedancer said:

We need more info:

Were you racing (as defined in the RRS)?

Was the bigger boat racing?

Were you on starboard tack and what about the other boat?

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No racing, it was leisure sailing.

I was on starboard tack. He was running free with his main on the starboard side.

Then, that's where you decide if you can put a hole in his side with your bow, or give him a %&@#$ , or protect your own life and boat!

As Sancho Panza says in "Man of LaMancha" - "Whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone, it's going to be bad for the pitcher." Give way to the larger vessel since they may not see you. This assumes, again, that there's no "racing" goin' on.

cshoffmann said:

Then, that's where you decide if you can put a hole in his side with your bow, or give him a %&@#$ , or protect your own life and boat!

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I just restored her. And I'm not tired of living just yet either.

Whether the other boat is racing or not he is required to obey the right of way rules, if you were on stb. and he was on stb. then the issue would be, who is the boat to weather, since he was running, and sailing towards you he would have been the windward boat, therefore he would have to keep clear. Since his main was on the stb. side of his boat he would be on port tack, therefore you have right of way. Because some sailors aren't aware of the rules don't push your luck, the first rule is to do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision. If the two of you were racing and he disobeyed the rules you could protest him. This was not the case so nothing is to be gained by getting in a "stand off"

Always assume the other guy doesn't know the rules and avoid a smash up no matter what.
It's hard to justify damage with: "Well I had the right of way so I didn't budge!"

Fred

Fred P said:

"Well I had the right of way so I didn't budge!"

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It is interesting how that mindset overrides sensibility…

It’s similar to when someone cuts you off in traffic, no cop, no foul.

You could press the issue (best if you have witnesses on your side – not his crew) and go to the lake patrol and issue a complaint. Just like on the roadways, a citizen complaint can lead to a citation being issued, then you and he show up in court to debate the circumstances. Your state’s boating regulations pamphlet often has this process explained. On coastal and commercial inland waterways the authority can also include the USCG.

If a collision occurs, you are probably out one boat and nursing some bruises at best. He’ll get a ticket and the liability of your boat and injuries. You too could and most likely will be cited for failure to avoid. But, hey, you get the satisfaction of knowing you were in the right. Most small boat skippers would change course momentarily, wave a New York cabby’s salutation in passing, and sail on.

He did begin to give me the right of way, but not until he was close enough that I began maneuvers to avoid a collision because lets face it, my 100lb boat is much easier to stop/turn. And that's more or less my question. How close do you let someone get to you before you figure they're not going to yield?

minifish said:

How close do you let someone get to you before you figure they're not going to yield?

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I don't know that a distance figure exists. No closer than the point at which you run out of safe maneuvering room would be my personal rule.

If a boat who's forward of abeam is always at the same compass bearing relative to your course, you're on a collision path. Ideally you should detect a course change by the other boat before reaching 1/10th mi (not racing). Outside this distance course changes only need to be slight. Inside that mark a full change of tack might be required by either of you when a half degree change earlier would have sufficed.

There's an element of experience involved. A friendly exchange of waves to acknowledge you see one another. You spotting the other boat trimming up of letting out indicating he's made a course shift before your compass bearing tells you.

If the other skipper is more focused on the ice in his cocktail than the other boats around him and doesen't acknowledge your presence, make your own adjustment early and trouble will be avoided without need for radical collision avoidance and a case of wave rage.

minifish said:

He did begin to give me the right of way, but not until he was close enough that I began maneuvers to avoid a collision because lets face it, my 100lb boat is much easier to stop/turn. And that's more or less my question. How close do you let someone get to you before you figure they're not going to yield?

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OK. The RRS didn't apply; Gov't rules take over. But the scenario as described suggests that the sail on the 30-footer may have obscured the Minifish on starboard tack. At least initially. Moreover, the skipper may have been on the windward side of the bigger boat (drink in hand, perhaps , carrying on a conversation with his gorgeous spouse/girlfriend/daughter).

What to do? As the skipper of the smaller boat, I would start to scream "STARBOARD" (in a non-threatening way) when some 20 boat lengths away (say 200'). I would also try to make eye contact with somebody on board of the other boat. If there was no reaction, I would tack away when about 10 boat lengths away. In a racing situation, I would get closer , before screaming "PROTEST" (and the sail number). But this all assumes the winds are moderate. When it's really windy, one ought to be much more cautious.

One more thought. We haven't touched on the possibility that the bigger boat may have been limited in its options by being in a channel or restricted in some other way.

Finally, did the other skipper assume you were going to duck his stern?

Wayne said:

I don't know that a distance figure exists. No closer than the point at which you run out of safe maneuvering room would be my personal rule.

If a boat who's forward of abeam is always at the same compass bearing relative to your course, you're on a collision path. Ideally you should detect a course change by the other boat before reaching 1/10th mi (not racing). Outside this distance course changes only need to be slight. Inside that mark a full change of tack might be required by either of you when a half degree change earlier would have sufficed.

There's an element of experience involved. A friendly exchange of waves to acknowledge you see one another. You spotting the other boat trimming up of letting out indicating he's made a course shift before your compass bearing tells you.

If the other skipper is more focused on the ice in his cocktail than the other boats around him and doesen't acknowledge your presence, make your own adjustment early and trouble will be avoided without need for radical collision avoidance and a case of wave rage.

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Growing up, we had a 33' Hunter which, in reality, commands much more respect than a little minifish. I have more experience with it around other boats than a dinghy sailboat. I think had I been aboard and equally sized vessel, it would have been different.
Regardless of size, learning to sail it, Dad always made sure we were keeping an eye out for all boats (no matter the size or whether a power boat or sail boat) because, as you stated, it's much easier to make a small course shift than take drastic maneuvers in a vessel that size...which is why I think the other guy got a little frustrated with me because I suddenly changed course. But I did so because IMO, he was getting too close for comfort before making any changes. He was going to have to take some major evasive action to avoid me anyway. He was close enough that I felt I had to come to a halt completely in order to avoid collision by turning into the wind.

Wavedancer said:

One more thought. We haven't touched on the possibility that the bigger boat may have been limited in its options by being in a channel or restricted in some other way.

Finally, did the other skipper assume you were going to duck his stern?[/COLOR][/FONT]

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Actually, I had more restrictions. He had a bunch of lake except for where I was and I had land on two sides with some jet ski's in front of me to the side.
If I turned to go downwind, he would have only gotten closer to me and I would also be going into land. I couldn't go into the wind any more because he was close enough that I'm not sure it would have avoided a collision. If I fell off the wind a little, I'd be running into some jet ski's that were fooling around. So I felt my options were keep my present course and run the risk of collision or, turn into the wind and go dead in the water before crossing his path.


The main golden rules I follow is that 1.) you don't technically have the right of way until it's given to you and 2.) that you don't let your boat get close to other boats.

I try to set a course that stays out of the way of others, but due to where I was and what was surrounding me, my course options were limited.
That said, I'm used to being the one in the 33 footer, not the dinghy, and so even the 20' boats look enormous and encroaching on my space. It may have been a perception thing with me which is why I asked what would you say the distance between you and another boat would be before you felt like you needed to do what was necessary, right of way be damned, to avoid a collision.

Oh well. I think I made the right decision since no boats were harmed. Another way to cause a boat collision is to suddenly change courses when you're so close to one another. However, I felt I had no choice because he made no indication that he saw me (read: that he was going to yield) until after I had come to a stop. And perhaps he didn't see me until I stopped.

I was sailing my 'fish at my usual haunt last summer, on starboard tack. A member of our yacht club with a larger vessel was on port tack, and did not give way, despite a loud last-minute verbal warning of "Starboard!". I had to fall off to pass to his starboard. He was to sunward and so I couldn't see him clearly, except a distinct impression of a dark hull. I also didn't fell like giving chase for full identification. My mistake !

I've asked around, and we have reduced the number of possibles to 3, one of which is known to be rather deaf and somewhat ignorant of the rules. I was warned that it might happen again. But also told to level a direct accusation through the club if it does happen.

Some people clearly need to be ganged up on, in order to be convinced that they should learn the rules of the road.

On a Sunfish, not racing, I would suggest that getting out of the way is your top priority.

Cheers!

The best thing to do is carry an air horn and give the other guy five short blasts.

Make them loud ones.

BTW, I use this method to train dogs. It works, even with problem dogs.

WM sells and small size horn.

The collision regulations apply whether you are racing or not. On different tacks starboard has right of way, on the same tack leeward boat has right of way. If you are motoring the boat to starboard of you has right of way. In any case do what you can to avoid collision. Once again, the fact that one of the boats is racing means nothing, the right of way rules apply equally to all.