Goosenecks and shackles

M

Martin_Cph

DEN 182275
First a pic of a fellow laser sailor’s gooseneck - notice how the hole is placed in the top half of the bracket.

http://www.swetka.net/laserfleet/images/LaserRig1.jpg

It’s a spare part as well http://www.sailboats.co.uk/product~Laser_Gooseneck_L1331.html

What’s the correct direction of the spare hole? Up or Down? My hole is in the lower half? :)D)

What’s correct? Rules? It certainly doesn’t matter if you use the top or lower hole for a shackle/block-combo – two very different trimming angles for outhaul – top is best.

Relevant Rules:

iii. Additional purchases may be obtained by forming
rope loops in the line or adding “Optional” blocks
to the line, and/or using the outhaul fairlead,
the outhaul clam cleat, the boom, the mast or
gooseneck fitting.
An “Optional’ block may be attached to the outhaul
fairlead, provided Rule 3(f)ii is also satisfied.
An “Optional” block may be attached to the outhaul
clam cleat.
iv. An “Optional” block may be attached to the clew of
the sail, or to a quick release system, or be part of
a quick release system.
v. One or two “Optional” blocks may be attached to
the gooseneck fitting, or at the mast/gooseneck
junction with their “Turning Points” not more than
100mm from the center of the gooseneck bolt.
(The gooseneck may be inverted.)
 
Re: Goosenecks and schackles

The manufacturer is required to install the gooseneck fitting with the holes on the underside. The competitor has the option of inverting the fitting. Just this week I've been discussing this with the ILCA technical officer in the hope that one day the fitting will be supplied with holes above and below, so that competitors can utilise the holes without needing to worry how the fitting is set up.
 
Re: Goosenecks and schackles

So on the short run I am allowed to drill out the rivets and invert the gooseneck myself?
 
Re: Goosenecks and schackles

Ok. So how do you make best use of your holes? Shackels, Bolts, blocks, Spectra?

I am considering running an M6 ring-bolt through with a ring-nut . This would allow me to use the pad-eyes on both sides as fixpoint for the different blocks.

Would that be legal as well?
 
Re: Goosenecks and schackles

In my opinion is using a bolt for attaching the optional blocks to the side of the gooseneck fitting is not legal. 3.a.vi does not specify that a bolt can be used for attaching the blocks.

Wait a few days and I'll post a picture my set up, which is completely legal according Jean-Luc.
 
Re: Goosenecks and schackles

AlanD said:
In my opinion is using a bolt for attaching the optional blocks to the side of the gooseneck fitting is not legal. 3.a.vi does not specify that a bolt can be used for attaching the blocks.
Click to expand...

I thought that there was talk about a rule change being put to a vote next time round to allow bolts/shackles/and similar on the goosneck for outhaul attachment. Cannot remember 100% but certainly not in the rules yet but may be subject to a membership vote.

Ian
 
Re: Goosenecks and schackles

You're possibly correct Ian, I remember having a discussion with Jean-Luc at the Terrigal Worlds about the legality of using a bolt in this location.
 
Re: Goosenecks and schackles

Deimos is correct. See the March edition of Laser World (Tracy has given the links in a separate post), Rule Changes and item 2 which reads :-
Rule 3(f) Outhaul
Modify rule 3(f)(v) to add the
following sentence:
The blocks in this rule may also be
attached to the gooseneck with a bolt
or a pin.
EXPLANATION: Rule 3(a)(vi) currently
reads:- “When an optional block or
shock cord is attached to a fitting,
line, mast, boom or the sail, it may be
attached either with or without a shackle,
clips, balls, hooks and/or a tie line.” This
makes it illegal to bolt the blocks using
the hole in the gooseneck. The use of a
bolt or a pin at the gooseneck is similar
to using a shackle and is more readily
available.
Assuming you are a Laser Association member you can vote for or against.
 
Re: Goosenecks and schackles

Alan and Clive both, Thanks for your input. It's very refreshing to have advice from the Laser Class Team, not discounting Tracy's long standing contributions.


I don't use this hole, and frankly have little interest in using them, but I appreciate the discussion, especially since a rule change has been proposed.


Thanks

Al Russell
 
Re: Goosenecks and schackles

Hi Al,

The relevant rule is 3 (f) Outhaul v last sentence - (The gooseneck may be inverted).

There are many ways to rig the outhaul, using these holes either in the upper or lower location is just an option. Many people also use a tie line around the mast in the gooseneck location.
 
Hi,
a few days ago at the club, at a discussion about how to attach the outhaul system to the gooseneck, I did advise a mate not even to use shakles to fix an optional block to the gooseneck. I was confused by exact this thread here at TLF.
The past few days I did visit the ACTUAL class rules intensive for the question "Is it permitted to use a shackle to fix optional blocks to the gooseneck for the outhaulsystem?"
My solution I found at this following related rules: "3. (a) v" + "3. (a) vi" + "3. (f) ii" + "3. (f) iii" + "3. (f) v"

From thinking about the words of this class rules above, I've given an advise that was wrong. For me the actual class rules do permitt a "shackle". If I'm wrong in my opinion, please correct me (but, please, explain exact, why I'm wrong).

In my understanding, ONLY the "ILCA chief measurer" is allowed to officially interpret the ILCA class rules for the Laser. Over the years, the ILCA chief measurer always did publish an extra "Rules Interpretation". I would be wondered, if he would't add a paragraph to this interpretaitons, about "what the class rules understand for "bolt"", if it is permitted to use "bolts" at the gooseneck aft the voting.

Ciao
LooserLu
 
Sensible suggestion LooserLu and you are now correct about the use of a shackle with the gooseneck fitting.
 
AlanD said:
For everyones information. Here's my outhaul and cunningham. As indicated earlier, Jean-Luc has given it the tick of being legal.

http://www.freewebs.com/alantm/apps/photos/album.jsp?albumID=4323235
Click to expand...

Interesting because I had thought that some had said that shackles on gooseneck were not legal. I seem to remember a thread on this forum where somebody said it had been discussed with the US chief measurer who said "illegal" - but my memory is not always what it should be). Also, the black lines on mast below gooseneck I thought were illegal (technically). In practice, even if they are, it is the sort of thing where anybody objecting says more about themselves and their abilities than anything else.

Ian
 
Shackles: Please refer to the Laser Class Rules

3(f)iii. Additional purchases may be obtained by forming rope loops in the line or adding "Optional" blocks to the line/or using the outhaul fairlead, the outhaul clam cleat, the boom, the mast or the gooseneck fitting.
An "Optional" block may be attached to the outhaul fairlead, provided Rule 3(f)ii is also satisfied.
An "Optional" block may be attached to the outhaul clam cleat.

3(f)v. One or two 'optional' blocks may be attached between to the gooseneck fitting, or at the mast/gooseneck junction with their "turning points" not more than 100mm from the centrer of the gooseneck bolt. (The gooseneck may be inverted.)"

When read with
3(a)vi. When an "optional" block, or shock cord is attached to a fitting, line mast, boom or the sail, it may be attached either with or without a shackle, clips, balls, hooks and/or tie line.

Personally, I cannot see why people might think that you cannot attach a block to the gooseneck fitting with a shackle.

Markings:
There is however issues with the legality of markings on lines, spars etc and this is why it's important to cast your vote with the ILCA in the up coming vote of rule changes.

http://www.laserinternational.org/img/Laserworld/Mar09.pdf
Change 3 specifically covers this point and will clarify that markings are legal. Currently it's a grey area, it something that we do not consider to be illegal, but the rule new rule will specifically state that it is legal. In the past I've never had an issue with as a measurer and none of the ISAF measurers I've worked with at various world championships have mentioned that they have an issue with it. In additional Jean-Luc personally measured my boat at the last Masters World, I asked him to go over the boat in extreme detail, as I feel I need to have the most legal boat on the water as I am a measurer.

However, there is an issue with the use of "flags" on the lines, in particular the vang, but not tape is it’s just rapped around the line, or permanent marker pen marks. I’m not sure that the new rule will alter this.
 
Interesting set up for your cunningham, Alan. Do you have any closeups of the lines and blocks between the boom and vang? Also, how do you use the markings on the mast?
 
What precisely are you after in the close ups, as I can obtain more photos. Btw If you save the picture, you should be able to zoom in on any particular area.

The markings are for setting the cunningham and it's based on the relative position of the double block (partially obscured). I tend to preset all my control lines before going around the bottom mark based upon my previous upwind setting used that day. Once around the mark, I'll then adjust if the conditions require it.
 
Ok another question about Cunninghams (it is related). Is the use of a shackle to attach the Kicker to the mast tang legal? I know bolts and pins are 9as they come supplied like this.

The reason i ask is because I have a shackle attaching the kicker to the mast which has a block on it. I am thinking about doing something similar to Alan for the 8.1 sail as you need to use LOTS of cunningham with it and my current setup does not give me enough purchase.

I can take pics and post if required (but not until the weekend).

Paul
 
The short answer is, yes it's legal, see rule 3(a)vi and 3(e)iii. But for confirmation, I'd rather see a picture of the system you wish to use as it's always difficult to visualise what someone is describing.
 
Thanks Alan. I will get a picture of it over the weekend and post it (it will be in it's current form as opposed to the new and improved form) because I dont want to spend out on the double block if I don't need to.

It will be the same as yours aside from the bottom block with the becket will be on the shackle that is attaching the kicker and the tail of the cunningham instead of tying off at the gooseneck will come right down to where your single block and becket is on the bottom kicker assembly.
 
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