Class Politics Ban Coach / Nannie Boats?? Already Illegal?

No, he is not necessarily corrupt. But as soon as he provides any service to his sailors during a regatta, he is providing outside assistance.



Irrelevant. He has provided outside information, and thus outside assistance, to you.



Assistance is provided between races. That assistance is provided to sailors unequally because the coaches are not impartial. We would like sailors to have equal access to assistance during a day on the water. One way to achieve this end is to limit the usage of coach boats.



Do we get to have an evening gown competition too?



None needed. There are no relevant facts that are disputed.
1. Mommy boats exist.
2. Mommy boats provide various assistance to sailors.
3. The assistance is provided on the water.
4. Outside assistance is not allowed.

quote]


JUst to show I also pick on guys who agree with me...

The above "has the tone" intended or not, of placing some or all of the blame for the assistance on the mommy boat.

The mommy boat and its passengers are not currently regulated by the RRS unless the assistance comes between the warning signal and when teh competitor crosses the finish line.

Sometimes, the NOR or the SIs will make rules related to Mommie Boats but when there are no special rules added...Mommie boats have only the the underlined restrictions mentioned above.

It is the competitor who takes the personal outside assistance. It is the competitor who must decide whether taking assistance unavailable to all those with which he is competing is unsportsmanlike, antisocial, or otherwise personally unacceptable behavior.

The current default rule has its benefits. As fellow entrants in a game, we can look at the fleet of mommie boats and discover who is using outside asistance and who is not. We can then decide whether to compete on a even sailing surface with the assisted or the self sufficient.

Usually, I choose to go self sufficient and beat as many assisted as I can. Beating an assisted while playing self sufficient is far more satisfying than beating self sufficient while being helped.


If your goal is to win!! You may need to pay diffferently than if your goal is to experience great competition.

Certainly for some, the only choice is virtually always the "self sufficient " game.
When anyone chooses the "assisted game" it is done with the full knowledge many of those in the game are not playing with equal opportunity.

Sportsmanship to some of us absolutely includes, "It is not whether you win or lose, It is how you play the game."

Therefore our capacity to "enjoy" victory is mitigated by anything we might believe to be "questionable sportsmanship."


Yappity yap yap yap.
 
since trapeze hooks have been found to kill a couple of people, should trapezing be banned?

sailchris, I want to to work on making smoking illegal, since it is also a killer, the public need to know this


Ross. You are still flunking debate.


Your trapeze comment would only be cogent to this discussion is we were discussing something like 470 racing
and
The competitors who had mommie boats were known to regularly remove the trapeze wires and harnesses for light air races but re- install those wires and pick up and wear the harnesses when the wind was building.

And.
Of course we are not discussing anything of the sort.

I quoted the second sentence because I want to remind you...

Fer crissakes kid!! Work on your grammar and use of the language or you will be either attending no college at all or attending a college ONLY because your parents bought your way in.

You current grammar level as published on this site is fifth grade. Please work on it!!!

I am certain you are way smarter than the impression you generate with your grammar!!!

I am serious.

And on your side!!!

ROSS FOR VP
 
Ross ,


Please, go spread your particular brand of humor and lack of common courtesy somewhere else.

M


I like to assume the people of the world are generally nice as opposed to generally neutral or generaly bad.

You do not know where he might go.

I really would rather Ross would stop than go bother good folks elsewhere.
 
LOL well if you say so...

The rest of your points are unproven heresay. Give me the transcripts of protest committee meetings. What goes on now is legal, because it is allowed to happen under the current rules. If you can't protest it you can't say it is illegal. If you knew how to protest it your suggestions would have factual base. Instead of taking the opportunity to investigate how you could protest it, you've decided to move on to regulation, citing that investigation of the actual nuts and bolts of your claim is "irrelevent". You've made a giant leap of process.

There have been all manner of implications in this thread ranging from opinion (completely allowable) to direct accusation and naming of names (slightly dodgy). But there is no proof of anything. It is not enough to say you think it isn't right. If you want to change the rules you need to prove it isn't right.


Chainsaw!! What the heck man?? Here is the last sentence from SailChris, "As I said before, the only thing that remains to be decided is whether outside assistance provided between races should be proscribed by one or more of the sailing instructions, class rules, or sailing rules."

You must have read the post before you responded as though you didn't bother to read it.

You flunk debate!!

The value of the help given in 100% of the instances is not a concern.

The fact is, "Sometimes outside asistance helps sailors."

Another fact is," Sometimes some of that helpful assistance is distributed to some but not all of the sailors."

Another fact is," If the committee distributes un-equal help to the sailors, there are rules specifically written which address the subject and more rules which address remedies."

Another fact is, "If a competitor who is racing receives help from a source other than those controlled by the race committee, and that help is received during a race, there are rules to address that situation"

Another fact is, " If the RC renders assistance to competitors and that assistance is not distributed equally to all the competitors, There are rules to address that situation."

Another fact is, "I started this thread because I would like the RRS, the organizers, and RC to have total control over the level of assistance which the competitors shall be allowed to receive. "

Another fact is, "There are no current rules in the RRS dealing with between race assistance by parties outside the control of the RC."

Another fact is: "I would like it to be simple for every competitor to decide whether it is legal to accept any particular offer of assistance."
 
But they won't do it without proof of non-compliance or cheating or without reason. You can't change ILCA rules without same.



You have used the term "non-compliance" in such a manner that I must believe you are either a genius or a damn fool.

Damn Fool: If you think there can be non-complaince with a non existent rule.

Genius: If you mean rules are generally created because the game being played in a manner which is out of compliance with the way we would like to see it played.


I believe the taking of personal assistance between races is out of compliance with the rules of fair sailing unless...That assistance is clearly and equally available to evdedry competitor.

Therefore: According to me, we are out of compliance right now and we need a rule to address that problem..

Thank you Mr Saw for helping me find new perspective.
 
So, let's get back to discussing whether Mommy boats are, part of the game.


Hammerin' on my side again...

Currently, I think you believe Mommy boats ARE part of the game.

(OK Dead certain)

Therefore, I agree with you.

This obvious part of the game needs to be defined and regulated so organizers can have the opportunity to easily organize the game exactly as those organizers intend.

My addition and not necessarily what Chris was attempting to communcate>>>
Many of us believe the pure sportsmanlike game of sailing includes accepting no assistance unless that assistance is clearly offered to all the competitors.

Usually this includes simple stuff.
a. We don't accept last minute tows to the course unless every straggler will be towed.
b. We don't ask questions at the RC boat because we don't want to put the nice guys on the spot...We worry>>>.What if somebody else doesn't know and the RC didn't tell that person?
c. We don't store extra equipment on RC boats because if everybody did that the RC would be busy distributing stuff instead of running races AND somebody might see us dropping or picking up stuff and protest.

Many of us believe, bringing along a personal support boat is a circumvention of the obvious rules of "everybody gets or nobody gets" outside assistance.


For history sake: When I was a junior sailor I had friends with powerboats. My friends often came out to "see about these sailboat races Fred blabbers on and on and on about."

Sometimes I did notice the frends and sometimes I even sailed over to visit between races.

But...Even though Thye regularly offered drinks and food and sunscreen or to tie up and jump on their boat for a few minutes..

Pram racer Fred KNEW that would be cheating.

In fact. It wasn't unitil 20 years later when I was at a big Laser regatta and saw on the water coach boats that I actually read the rules and found out it was legal.

Legal is not necessarily OK.
I started this thread to see if others agreed more with my point of view or the Status Quo. After reading the posts here and over on Sailing Anarchy, I know there are opinions but I don't have any better handle on what policy and rule is right or wrong for the game of sailing..
 
John and I had a good laugh this morning. Two years ago when I sailed at Masters MWE we brought along our Boston Whaler and he was my "coach" boat. He helped tow a bunch of Lasers out to the course. Other than that, he was a spectator boat there for my morale. I didn't get on the Whaler between races, 1. it wouldn't have occurred to me, 2. there was no time between races because I was dead last in every one. Since I was dead last in every race, I hope you don't begrudge me and other newbies their morale boat. What is really funny--there's no way in hell that he knew which side of the course was favored either.
 
Pram racer Fred KNEW that would be cheating.

In fact. It wasn't unitil 20 years later when I was at a big Laser regatta and saw on the water coach boats that I actually read the rules and found out it was legal.

Well, there we go. No wonder folks are arguing and getting nowhere. Some of y'all remember a time before coach and mommy boats became the norm. Others are used to them and they seem like no big deal.

I got into Lasering again hard-core 5 years ago after a 15-year absence. I never raced Lasers or anything else at a high level when I was young, so I am learning how things are now, which is probably why I accept coach and support boats, as long as they aren't directly interfering with me (ie bad wake, etc.) It would be hard to put the genie back in the bottle for open events, but perhaps Masters regattas would be more amenable to specific rules regulating support boats? Not that support boats are a huge problem in the masters fleet.

Didn't the old sailing rules say you had to retire from the race after a foul or hitting the mark or something, rather than do a 360/720 and keep going? That seems really severe to me because I am used to the current sailing rules. Paradigm shift.

Everybody has a different line they won't cross. I was becalmed along with the last third of the fleet at MWE last year just shy of the leeward mark, and against the current. I spent 30 minutes trying to sail 100 feet to that mark and gave up and took a DNF. The only people to make it around the mark and to the reach finish line pumped and rocked their way shamelessly. Me and a handful of other people tried to sail it out and pretty much gave up because the time limit was approaching quickly. Incidentally, almost of us who tried to sail it out were Masters sailors. We could've rocked our way around the mark too but it didn't seem right.

I'm babbling now. It was a long difficult day on the water.
 
The thing that annoys me most about coach boats is when they stuff up other people's races and then have the hide to abuse them. I often sail at multi-class regattas in a different class of boat to lasers. However, there are always lasers competing. At least one of these regattas is a fairly high-profile one so there are some highly competitive sailors there - complete with coach-boats.

During this regatta once we were getting ready for our start, and the lasers were due to start after us. We did all the usual stuff to kill time before the start, and then decided on our strategy. We decided due to wind and conditions etc to sail in a particular direction and then tack back just before the gun to cross in about the middle of the line. So we sailed off in this direction, and with a little while to go we tacked and realised that a coach-boat had come along and parked (in neutral) a few hundred metres back from the line, slap bang in the middle. We shouted at them to move as they were on our start etc but they abused us, saying that we needed to read the rules as it is the obligation of the sailors to avoid obstructions. We ended up having to tack to avoid them and then tack back again to cross the line. A number of other boats got stuffed up in the same instance and it majorly affected our race. When we spoke to the RC afterwards they said that there wasn't much they could do because the coach boats were allowed to be there.

I was so annoyed. Oh yeh, and since when is a powerboat that is in neutral an obstruction? It still had it's motor on and was not at anchor, and therefore as far as I'm concerned the power/sail rules still apply.

I think it's ridiculous that they are allowed on the course. Family of people who sail in our class took a spectator boat out during that regatta to get some photos, and they got abused by the coach-boats for, of all things, COACHING! lol. The coach-boat said it was against the rules for a competitor to accept advice during the race. I don't even know why he thought that - the spectator boat was off the course at all times, watching and taking pictures.

Not only that, but I happen to think that (although I'm sure people here will disagree but this is just my opinion) kids having coach-boats only serves to make them more arrogant and obnoxious and to have something of a disregard for the rules. That's my experience at least.
 
... and parked (in neutral) a few hundred metres back from the line, slap bang in the middle. We shouted at them to move as they were on our start etc but they abused us, saying that we needed to read the rules as it is the obligation of the sailors to avoid obstructions.

Technically they may have been correct - demands on detailed circumstances and how far they were wanting to "push it". Remembering that between yourselves and the coach boat the RRS do not apply - you have a different set of rules there.

I think it is a good example of why coach boats need to be regulated and excluded. I think they should be subject to rules that keep them well clear of the race area and, any, infringements they make are the responsibility of all the boats they are coaching. i.e. they get in the way, all their coachees do 720's (or get disqualified). Add in a few rules about "if the enter the race area they do so on the understanding and agreement that they are subject to the following rules ..." and that they undertake not to become obstructions thus their motor "breaks down" and they are in the way its a broken rule and 720s/disqualification for all the boats they are supporting, etc.

But then there is still the issue of the before race support facilities.

Ian
 
i didnt feel like reading the whole 5 pages so i apologize if im repeating something but i feel i should point out that the racing rules of sailing only apply at the prep signal. after that point there may be no contact or coaching bettwen "nannie boat" and the sailor. between races there is no reason why they cant interact. nannie boats are also on the water for saftey reasons and just purly to help the sailors. it is in no way illegal for them to be on the water
 
It sounds like the presence of Mommy boats (or at least spectator boats) that were too close to the racing action almost changed the outcome of the Olympic Trials:

At the first windward mark on race 15 they rounded with Brad overlapped to leeward of Andrew(inside) about 5th and 6th. Brad then continued to go upwind, taking Andrew past the mark and toward (and nearly into) the spectator boats. There was no contact between the two boats, but Brad protested Andrew for not keeping clear. The protest was heard from about 3:10 until 5:00 pm when the jury deliberated and came to the decision that no foul occurred.
 
It sounds like the presence of Mommy boats (or at least spectator boats) that were too close to the racing action almost changed the outcome of the Olympic Trials:


I'd say no to this, only because the coach/support fleet never came inside of 100 yards of the weather mark. There were 1 or 2 photo boats inside of this, but they know when to move. Brad took Andrew way out of the race area, in a match race move, that must have been amazing to watch. The RC Mark 1 boat was probably way closer, more like 30-40 yards, but I assume moved at first sight of the luff.

The Trials RC were very serious about coach boat violations of some very strict rules. 4 Coaches lost their "flags" for a day for violations earlier in the week. This meant their boat stayed on the mooring for a day, although they could still go out on another coach boat, driven by a coach with a "flag". This was a good example where strict enforcement, eliminated further problems.

"Support" boats had stricter rules, such as no verbal or other contact from first flag of the day, til the last boat finishes.

Al
 
so what do you have have to say to all the olympians that hire coaches for Trials and the Olympics? and everyone in other classes that uses them for worlds and nationals?

Wow, it seems like everyone has a position on this one. I think having the ability to have your friends/family on the water watching you race is not a problem. If they hold your water bottle or some food and you hang on the side of their boat between races to talk that's cool too. I'm actually considering getting a RIB for the wife and kid to ride around in while I'm racing.

Each event should have a specific area on the water that spectator boats should stay within. If they come out of those areas anytime during the days sailing, (except to go to shore or deal with an emergency) then the sailor they are connected to gets a DSQ.

I don't have a problem with coaching. However, I do think it is unfair to have guys on the water giving you the AC run down before or between races. such as, "the right is favored" or "170654 has you by 2 points so make sure you beat them" or "oops your top section broke, here take this one and a new sail out here on the water" or "the last weather report has a left shift coming in about the time you will be half way up the weather leg".

If you have a coach great for you. Get the debrief at the end of the days races. Take your professional weather report before the days racing begins. If you have a breakdown go to shore for repairs like everyone else has to.

Lastly I think this is an almost impossible thing to police. Who can control what people talk about between races?

That's my position.
 
I think coach boats and coaches at regattas are a mockery of the laser class rules for strict one-design sailing and should be not allowed
First off any information from a coach is a HUGE, LARGE ,BIG advantage,
ex1. coach tracks wind direction and makes a wind graph to determine wich side of the course is favored:eek: then tells sailor
ex2. coach watches start, start is general and coach tells sailors who was over and who wasnt giving them a very good feel for the line
ex3. coach drives to each side of course gathers wind info then tells sailors exactly what will happen on course
ex4. Cork, Canadian Sailing TEam, American ST and other sailing teams all consult with their coaches between races.
ex5. most of the sailors from "royal" clubs constantly do better than people from other clubs. why is that b/c they r supirior sailiors, hmmmm.. wait im talking about optis were the ppl sailing can only have possibly been sailing for a max of 5-8 years. Sure royal clubs have good training schemes but r they realy that much better than others, or is it because they have olympic coaches/sailors telling the sailors exactly what to do on the course:D:). If you dont think this happens i gurantee u it does considering the opti story was about me.

Rule 41 the one right before 42
41 OUTSIDE HELP​
A boat may receive outside help as provided for in rule 1. Otherwise, she shall not receive help except for an ill or injured crew member or, after a collision,from the crew of the other boat.

rules one is safety
unless a sailor is in DANGER they shall NOT recieve HELP!
Wait !!!
this brings me back to,
ex.1 coach HELPing sailor by telling them wich way to go
Point proven
You wouldn't allow a sailor to sail with a not class aproved sailmaker which makes a miniscule difference, so why let some ppl get coached or helped
while others don't get any clearly giving the advantage to the person being coached.
STOP on water coaching at regattas it is not fair and I will protest you under rule 41 if I see it happening!​

 
rules one is safety
unless a sailor is in DANGER they shall NOT recieve HELP!
Wait !!!
this brings me back to,
ex.1 coach HELPing sailor by telling them wich way to go
Point proven
You wouldn't allow a sailor to sail with a not class aproved sailmaker which makes a miniscule difference, so why let some ppl get coached or helped
while others don't get any clearly giving the advantage to the person being coached.
STOP on water coaching at regattas it is not fair and I will protest you under rule 41 if I see it happening!

The racing rules only apply when you are racing which is between the prep flag and finish. When you are between races you can do whatever you want. You can't protest people between races. Rule 41 means you can't help people while you are racing which is fine. If you do receive help during a race you must retire.
 
My position is one big YAWN.....all the whiners need to get over it....


I totally agree.

The whiners who want their Nanny Boats need to leave the babysitters their mommies hired on shore and go race..all day...!!

Within the spirit of competition sailors must make do with only whatever help is controlled by the organizing authority, therefore controlled by the RRS ( under threat of having to grant redress) and made equally available to 100% of the competitors.

The whiners who want to bring their own personal advantages need to get with the program!!

Do it on your own like the real sportsmanlike sailors already do it.

Spend the rest of your life practicing and obtaining every piece of equipment you can legally use but on race day.....

It is time to step up and play the game!!!

Singlehanded!!!

Nonoe of the >>>> Me and my team team vs the singlehanders.

None of the >>> I can beat you even if your mom sends Elvstrom out to coach you.

Let's all play the same game!!!

Just one on one.

Once you leave shore everybody competes with the same resources for the day.


One on one!!!

Singlehanded!!

Thanks for chiming in!!

If I lived nearby, I would go to the Boathouse and buy every legal part I could buy to wear or put on my boat!!

I might even buy a coach boat for my PREPARATION days.

I am with you 100%. Quit whining about your need for special individual help.

Let's just race against one another and see who is the best sailor!!!

Teoo Mom and the coaches to get on a laser and come out for the race,

Nobody should be wasting a perfectly good Laser racing day sitting on a damn powerboat!!!

Thanks for another decade of great support for the game!!

I hoipe all the Mommies and coaches buy their new Lasers from you too!!!

Rock on!!
 
When I went to the orange bowl, I didnt have a coach boat. Sure I would have liked one, but we dont have one. I definatly felt that the boats that had coachs had a advantage. They were able to have water in the boat, other clothes, and even spare parts!
 
I've just been looking at an "Avis de Course" for a regatta later this month and a note at the bottom says that no nanny boats will be allowed on the water. Its a lake (but a decent sized one). actually it says "Seuls les entraîneurs accrédités par le club organisateur de la manifestation sportive et acceptant de participer à la sécurité sont autorisés sur l’eau" (my translation being "Only coaches approved by the organising club helping with security are allowed").

Ian
 
This reminds me of a funny Muhammad Ali story told seconds before the first Ali- Fraser fight...Trainer Drew Bundini was yelling at Ali.."WE are going to hit him with the right and then WE are going to hit him with the left "...And when the bell for round one sounded Ali steped out into the middle of the ring and turned around and said to Bundini, " I thought you were coming" !
 
they're acceptable if more than 3 people use the coach boat and if the coach boat helps other people. if that does not happen, well life sucks for whomever doesn't have a coach
 
and three is a magic number because??

The way I see it is that it makes people form teams, which means less coach boats. When I traveld to Orange Bowl as part of the CISA team, there were say 10 Fulls and 10 Radials on the team. And we had one coach boat for the 20 of us. I personally think 1 boat is better than 20, but thats just me.
 
The question I posed and discussion I attempted to start has to do with ...

DO WE INTEND TO PLAY A SINGLEHANDED GAME?

or

DO WE INTEND TO PLAY A TEAM GAME??

The answer to my question has been>

1.We are playing a team game
2. Some like the team game
3. Some do not like the team game and want to play one on one.
4. Some don't get the concept of the discussion and enter posts which blabber endlessly and sometimes with great passion about that which has nothing to do with the discussion.

Welcome back Ross
 
I sail a radial at national level (here in portugal) and sometimes i go outside for some bigger events usually in spain... And 90% of the fleet has a coach in a rib out on the water, including me! i'm on a team and we are about 10 sailors..
i don't get the point of the discussion at all!! i don't see the huge advantage you guys are so annoyed about over those who don't have one!
i surelly don't win races because of the coach!!!! he only gives me feedback AFTER the race and helps us or any other sailor on the fleet in case we need outside help!
in the regatta instructions usually there is a part that states that coach boats CAN´T go inside the course and must stay at 50meters away from the laylines during the race, so i don't understand why coaches in your races go inside the course. and every time a coach infringes any rule his team is penalised!
You guys keep saying that coaches tell their sailors the side to go and the line bias etc... i can assure you that this has never happened to me and i have had many coaches in my sailing carreer! i always sail a little bit upwind with a teammate or another friend before the race to check the line, the favoured side, etc... my coach is only there to give us feedback after the race, to help us in case we need and he put some extra clothes or food in the rib... nothing else!!
During the race it's me, my boat and all the other sailors!
 
I sail a radial at national level...i'm on a team and we are about 10 sailors...he only gives me feedback AFTER the race...my coach is only there to give us feedback after the race, to help us in case we need and he put some extra clothes or food in the rib... nothing else!!
During the race it's me, my boat and all the other sailors!

Your coach provides outside assistance. The outside assistance he provides is not available to sailors without coaches. You would be able to race without the outside assistance, but you choose not to. That's why I don't like it.
 
That is outside assistance AFTER races!! he doesn't go and give a water bottle at the mark... i have done many regattas without a coach also and so i do know what it is! and i tell you that it is very stupid to ban coaches!! in my team there are a some sailors that just started sailing and i'm sure that they wouldn't go out without a coach because they aren't very experienced and don't feel comfortable sailing alone!
if coaches were banned many people would stop racing and would be demotivated to sailing their lasers!
i'm not rich! and i don't have a personal coach... if you are so annoyed about the people who have one and you don't, join a club and enter their sailing team! i pay 70$ a month to the club and i can use all the club facilities (including store my laser, coaching etc etc...)
 
in my team there are a some sailors that just started sailing and i'm sure that they wouldn't go out without a coach because they aren't very experienced and don't feel comfortable sailing alone!

If you read my earlier comments on this topic you will see that my position has been that assistance whether before, after, or during a race should not be allowed.
If sailors are really using coaches because they are not experienced enough to sail alone, then, as I have previously suggested, perhaps we should divide the scoring for the regatta into two groups: a coached fleet (the "Trainee Fleet") and an independent group (the "Yachtsman Fleet").
Coaching is a great resource for training. But, when coaches are on the water during a regatta, they are typically providing support in the form of food, water, shelter, and advice. This support is not primarily designed to coach sailors to make them into better competitors. Rather, it is designed solely to make the regatta easier for them.
 
Lol that is ridiculous!! if you divide the fleet in two we would have 6 laser classes... i bet the races would be very interesting lol if there were 120 lasers in one event there would be about 20 in each class.. really cool right?! and what if it was a smaller event with only 40 or 50 boats??? if you are pissed because you don't win races or because some sailors can eat dry food between races and you can't, get a coach! it's not that expensive to join a sailing team and it makes sailing much more fun!
if you just think that those who have coaches are trainees you are plain wrong!! i don't think that all the olympians, the pre-olympians and semi pro sailors are trainees... and all of them have coaches!
if you wan't single handed sailing without any help go for the mini transat or vendee globe or something like that... we are sailing lasers not offshore sinlgehanders!
 
i don't think that all the olympians, the pre-olympians and semi pro sailors are trainees... and all of them have coaches!
if you wan't single handed sailing without any help go for the mini transat or vendee globe or something like that... we are sailing lasers not offshore sinlgehanders!

All the "olympians, the pre-olympians and semi pro sailors" would still be able to beat me without coaching support during a regatta. We are sailing Lasers not racing Formula 1 cars. You don't need a pit stop between races.
 
"All the "olympians, the pre-olympians and semi pro sailors" would still be able to beat me without coaching support during a regatta."
That's right in the same way that having a coach watching my races doesn't influence my results at all!!! so if it's with the results that you are worried you are wrong...
 

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