Slightly soft side deck

Voodoo 158546

Hard hiking at the end of a 3hr race, killer
Hey people.
A friend has just swapped his vortex for a laser - 18xxxx number.
Starboard side deck is a little soft and he's asked for me to make it good again.
I plan on actually remembering to do a show n tell here - pics n explanations of the job - for the benefit of those that may find themselves faced with this issue.
 
Naw he's stoked with it Paul.
I haven't seen it yet, might be less of an issue than first reports suggest ?
 
So, my mate brought his new boat round and the news isn't dire at all.
Looking at it, someone's dropped something on it.
See the dark and very neat line running parallel and about two inches off the ruler, it's about 17 inches long.
Corresponding with this is the slight gouge in the non slip that seems to point toward the turn of the cockpit where, there is a hairline flex crack for a couple of inches. The deck can be slightly flexed here but five inches either side its solid.

So what to do ?
First thing was to ensure the boat was supported neatly as I'd be leaning on it on its trolley for this.
Had to get access and apply some stringers inside, looks like a several stage job.

Didn't want to put a hatch in the cockpit wall so opted for the letterbox.
Had to be able to fit hands through so committed to a two inch wide slot.

Plan here is to key then clean the inside under that long dent, apply two layers of epoxied cloth up to the underside for the full length of the dent above. Stringers will be applied on top ( underneath ) of this, four equally spaced running parallel with the transom from cockpit inner wall towards the gunnel.
Stringers are of Ash, 10mm x 10mm, cut using bandsaw.

First thing is to remove the grab rail, figured the top of the letterbox cut can be hidden behind the rail as the gel coat may not be absolutely invisible - refer you to the stories re: Vella grey gel.

Break out the dremel !
Initial cuts for each side with the dremel and as soon as it became viable slotted a naked hacksaw blade in to do the bulk of the cut - it's faster & less airborne mess.

With the letterbox cut out the first look inside showed the slightest hairline crack directly under that dent above but nothing like what I imagined, no frayed tears or blatant wounds with dry fibres like a cheap hookers eyelashes.

Ok, so using my access finger ( a piece of oak, shaped with a long handle and a thinner end with a small flat pad with a square of neoprene glued on ) I taped on a bit of 80 grit and sanded the area in question plus a bit either side. Only takes a couple of mins.
With the same tool I now tape on some clean rag and give the keyed area an acetone scrub, not just once, three separate times allowing the acetone to dry and with clean rag each time.

On the workbench I've got a piece of pine about 60mm wide and 600mm long, sellotaped ( so the epoxy doesn't stick to it )
and two lengths of epoxy tape - 50mm x 500mm sitting on a clean sheet of melamine.
A kids ball and pump, some polystyrene blocks.

Mixed up 10 mg of epoxy to 2 mg of hardener ( always use syringes for this for accuracy) and a non stick baking tray is my preferred mixing dish. The ubiquitous lolly stick, flattened and sanded off at the square edges for stirring.

Latex glove on and apply the goo...
Wetted out the tapes fully so they went clear, one at a time and squeegied the excess goo out to use - via brush - on the application site through the letterbox.
Inserted the polystyrene blocks and lay them on the floor inside, deflated the ball and inserted that to sit on the poly' blocks with the valve looking at me through the letterbox.
The pump was in the cockpit ready to hand.
Next in was the pine bar with the wet tapes on top, carefully inserted and positioned appropriately and above the ball.
Quite fiddly but doable, held everything in place while I pumped the ball up.
Three minutes of fiddling and twenty seconds of pumping saw the ball grip the pine bar to the roof neatly and firmly.
Stage complete, just gotta leave it overnight before deflating the ball, meanwhile I cut the stringers.
image.jpg
More tomorrow ....
Hope it helps someone.
 

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Left it overnight...
Deflated the ball and the cracked the pine bar off, then set about gluing the ash stringers in. First thing was to sand ( 80 grit) and clean where the stringers would be glued in.
Used the access finger with sand paper taped on.
Taped up the vicious edges of the letterbox - wrist protection more than goo protection.

There's that 'access finger' again, this time its got a 'modified' ( paint brush head - bent the metal collar ) attachment to apply epoxy right across the inside side deck from the letterbox to the gunnel.
Pasted a standard 5/1 epoxy mix on two inches wide to take the tape, used the remaining mix by adding some 407 ( better suited for 'grabbing' the timber and coated the topside of the stringer. It's the red goop.
Wetted out the pre cut tape with standard 5/1 mix and consolidated it to the stringer base.
Inserted stringer and consolidated the tape to the side deck, the 407 was in good contact.
Done one, moved across to the next in the same fashion then went back and put another layer of tape on the first and so on.
image.jpg image.jpg

Then put a couple of layers of tape along the turn of the cockpit wall/ side deck - belt n braces.

Next up was to make a backing plate to mount the original cut out onto.
If I had used polyester resin this would have taken 30 minutes but I'm using epoxy.
This meant I either - make an oversize flat plate on the bench from several layers of cloth then wait until next day or,
use something flat and conducive - I used a polystyrene bar about 3/4 inch thick.
Wetted out some tape and the bar, applied the tape to it and then ' posted ' them.
The backing poly bar held the tape nicely to the inner of the cut out ( strung out) and left it for a few hours.

Now I knocked up a 404 mix, sanded n cleaned the original cut out back face, drilled two holes in it and edged a screw in each hole just so the screw tip was proud of the rear.
Cut the strings.
Smothered the backing plate in the 404 mix and offered up the original cut out, finger tightening the screws so they bit into the backing and full contact was certain.
Blue taped and levelled flush.
Re strung with slight tension, to be left overnight.
Ready for gelcoat / filler
 

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Ha, thank you Wavedancer. Very gracious of you.
If you sailed it over I'd repair it for free =) and even make you a cuppa !

Being particular, I palmed the side deck and thought there's a small section - maybe four inch square - that gave a little more than its surrounds. This wouldn't do.
It could be left and sailed but chances are it will develop and spread so....

I've gone and opened her up again.
Another letterbox adjacent to the last.
This time I'm pre fabbing the backing plate and chose to make a mould and pre fab the stringers on the bench.

I'm lucky in that I've got a massive roll of lanolin to line any resin work with, but regular Sellotape works well.
I used a polystyrene bar for each stringer, the ash is only eight inches long and still ( going to mm here) 10 x 10 mm.
I pressed them into the poly then removed them and dremelled really neat and to the correct depth using a grinder bit.
Cut a bit of lanolin at eight inch x four inch and placed over the mould, cut two eight inch lengths of tape and one nine inch.
Wet out the tape using standard 5/1 mix and placed the two eight inch lengths on the lanolin over the mould, wet the ash and forced it into the mould over the tapes and lanolin for a real snug fit, the remaining longer tape went on top of the lot, completely encapsulating the ash and forming a neat plate that will stick to the side deck lower.....

Dropped more lanolin over one completed mould and placed the other completed mould on top, carefully placing them both in a vice to be left overnight..... The thermal reaction would have been contained by the poly and speed up the process via temperature....

At the same time I made the backing plate from four layers of tape about ten inches long - all this tape is 3 inch or 75 mm in new money...
Simple 5/1 mix, wetted out and in a lanolin envelope pressed between two über flat sheets of ply, viced and left overnight..

I'm trying to be canny here.... as we all know, polyester gelcoat won't stick to epoxy resin, hence the gluing of the backing plate to the hull inner and then gluing the original to the backing plate...the kerf ( the gap left by the width of the saw blade) will be left for the gel coat to fill and full contact between the hull skin & cut out will be all polyester....

I went out this am to check things but it was still quite dewey so I abstained from carrying out fitting the stringers until the day warmed up a touch and dried out...I just prepped the inside where they were going to go - access finger with 80 grit, hoovered out the hull and acetone wiped.

The stringers came out their moulds beautiful, no voids and crystal clear and very flat. I actually didn't want to sand/key them up but you have to remove any AMINE BLUSHING else the epoxy won't bond on a molecular level.
After keying and acetone wipes I put them in a ziplock bag until use later - keep them clean.

Meanwhile I prepped the bits of timber ready to hold everything in place for the fit - merely cut a length of pine...lolz.

The sun took the dew and the chill away and it was ok to bond the stringers in.
I lay a four inch film of lanolin over the mould and re plugged it with the stringer peices, made up a 5/1 mix using 10ml of resin to 2 ml of 205 ( hardener). Brushed the inner side deck area with mix, then coated the stringer peices and carefully positioned them where I wanted them complete in their moulds. Then simply wedged it snug to the hull using timber.
I'll be leaving it for about eight hours before moving anything.

Please note how I've taken care with the propping up of the boat using shaped polystyrene and tied off tight so no movey when doey, don't want to hurt the boat and make more work eh..

I'll be fitting the backing plate and the tin of " vela grey" that's been ordered should be here tomorrow, so hopefully all work will be invisible !
Then it's a matter of going round the hull and cleaning all the scratches n chips and re gelling......with any luck she will be back on the water this weekend....
 

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Duh, I've written " lanolin" all over the place here...nutbag....it's MELAMINE
sorry..
 
Voodoo,

Mixing up lanolin with melamine could result in a permanent DSQ. You need to stop sniffing the styrene and switch to epoxy. I suggest you use your lanolin to help out with that nasty latex glove induced dermatitis on your hands and other appendages.

Unfortunately it was made common knowledge many years ago that you cannot gelcoat epoxy. It is simply not true. Compared to new boat construction of wet poly/glass on tacky gelcoat in a mold it is obviously not as good. In that case there is a chemical bond.

In repair work wet gelcoat is applied over cured glass/poly. This mechanical bond is no different between wet gelcoat and cured epoxy or polyester.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/polyester-over-epoxy/

The newer skiff type boats are epoxy/glass/carbon with a poly gelcoat finish. They are getting a good enough bond between the epoxy and poly to survive the extreme nature of those boats. I suspect they spray the gelcoat on the mold. Clean the wax off. Then sand/abrade the gelcoat. Then layup the epoxy/glass on top of the gelcoat.
 
SQ. You need to stop sniffing the styrene and switch to epoxy. I suggest you use your lanolin to help out with that nasty latex glove induced dermatitis on your hands and other appendages.

Lolz, I swear I have never done anything other than blow one up on my head using my nose, those pictures on the net are shopped, done by my ex...I was young and impressionable.....they made me do it..........
 
Dear CaptainAhab,
I've just re read your above comments and realised something, something pertinent.
Polyester gelcoat will of course, grip to a fully cured and appropriately keyed up epoxy surface.
But in regards to the above fix the epoxy wasn't at full cure, it was only some seven to ten hours old !

It would be misleading for those who might want to have a go for themselves to find the chemicals not behaving as they expect and get disenchanted with repairing for themselves, which is what I hope to encourage here.
I'm not out to disagree, don't want an I-fight lolz,
Also guys, if you don't wear gloves you get sticky - everywhere ......& the impulse to wash hands with acetone, well is apparently dodgy as the stuff accumulates on your liver as its absorbed through the skin.

Well didn't I forget to keep taking pics for ya's...... The letter boxes got gelled ( millions of you tube vids on gelcoating) and I'm pleased to say the vela grey was absolutely spot on, blended in perfectly.
The side decks are solid and the cockpit walls are complete again and more or less invisible, I liked the gel so much I flipped the boat over and after a clean up and machine buff and then a t cut ( to decipher what was dirt/ light surface scratch or a deeper scratch) went at the hull with the gelcoat.
Kinda made a rod for my own back here but so glad I bothered.
There were about sixteen gel worthy wounds in the usual places - transom tip, aft of the bailer, trolley rash, a couple on each side from launching/ recovery and a few on the stem of the bow.
WERE is the keyword..
I have some foam rubber ( kids playmat ) that I use as a sanding pad and cut in assorted sizes, from palm to finger n thumb sizes, I tend to go large with lower grades of paper - palm size for 240, 400, 600, then half that again to use with 800, 1000
Then an inch square block to use with 2000,

The hull is now smooth although my arm aches a bit !
But its all justified seeing how happy my mate is with his new and revived laser.

He's going to sail it tomorrow ...image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg
 
Hey Voodoo,

Great write up. Thanks. I'm trying to decide applicability of your approach here to my situation and wonder if you could help diagnose and advise on the right fix.

I acquired an 18x,xxx boat in very good condition, with the exception of one significant (hopefully not fatal) flaw: a soft area on the port bench. Starboard side and the entire rest of the deck is very solid. Just the area I've taped off as shown in the photo on the port deck flexes a bit with the old palm press. The taped area includes everywhere there is even the smallest bit of flex, but only roughly the central third of the area within the taping has softness that makes me worry, and in that area I can hear a bit of crunching when I press on it. The boat has no evidence of water infiltration, no inspection ports, and otherwise seems sound and stiff.
soft deck area.jpeg
Here's where it gets interesting. Unlike in the case of your friends boat--where it seems someone dropped something on the deck--with my boat there is evidence of a collision at and slightly below the port gunwale, approximately in line with that deck soft spot (1st pic below). The damage here looks like aftermath from a typical boat-on-boat collision of the starboard/port crossing variety. There is a chip in the gunwale, and some spider cracks in the hull below and near that chip (2nd pic below). There are also some hairline cracks on the port deck in the aft corner around the cockpit (up top on the deck, not down inside the cockpit, which all seems very firm...3rd photo below).
collision position.jpeg collision damage.jpeg cockpit deck hairline cracks.jpeg
As the pictures indicate, the soft area on the deck is not out towards the gunwale, however, it's more centrally located in the port bench, and more in towards the cockpit.

Do you think it's likely that the collision described above is the cause of the delamination I'm detecting? Anything come to mind that I should be checking to help make this determination more certain?

And, if it is the case that the collision caused my problem, is the repair of your friend's boat you so thoroughly documented here the template I should follow for this repair (with help from our local fiberglass guy)? If the cause is thought to be something else, does this approach still make sense?

I've seen other methods since I started researching delamination repairs like drilling the pattern of holes in the deck and filling with epoxy via syringe, or actually removing the deck skin and attacking the problem from the top. I'm more a fan of your approach (and detailed instructions), but I want to make sure the method makes sense for my situation.

Also, is pre-fabricating the stringers as you did your second time in there definitely the preferred method?

This is my race boat, so adding weight is, of course, a consideration.

Follow up questions encouraged. Thanks so much for any help you can provide.
 
Hey TT,
thanks for asking.
First off a little background on the boat - was the person you got it from er, large.. ?
I've seen some dodgy roll tacking where the sailors slam their arse on the high deck.
Also beach launched boats don't seem to get the deck issues that pontoon /quayside boats suffer - being stepped onto /out of.
If the sailor stepping in is large and clumsy and in any sort of hurry, well...

Impacts in laminates are funny beasts, highlighting the weakest route through until the energy dissipates.
I doubt the that collision caused the deck issue though, it looks like the gunnel took the first contact and flexed, the momentum of the collider then took it out on the hull - the energy of this would remain in the hull mainly spreading away from the direction of the impact, being as the hull & deck were already separated nano seconds before.
It's impossible to distance assess where the deck energy went ?

The deck is a sandwich - grp/ foam/ grp/ with a gelcoat topping, it's likely the lower laminate has flexed enough to crack and tear fibres, if the upper cracks enough you'd see it reflected in the gel coat above.
The cracking at the cockpit/deck area - might this have happened in the same incident ?
Possible the sailor got thrown toward that area and landed heavily flat footed or knees ? on the upper inner cockpit.
Mebbe ?

Regarding drilling pilot holes and syringing gear in - the gear needs a keyed up & very clean surface to bond into / around....
All you would have is sacks effectively, blobs of gear dangling...bonding only to the inside perimeter of the pilot holes...and a slightly weakened deck ......don't recommend that.
Removing the whole deck ! Lolz, no need to be that drastic.
Of course, I would advocate the letterbox, it's a fairly straightforward and proven method.

Regarding the stringers - pre moulding them gives you so much more control, you can make them that much more precisely. Considering the weight ? It's negligible. If you planned on using lignum vitae then I'd say maybe try ash, they only have to be a few mm thick. You could get away with old style wooden battens but flexing under load may come back to haunt you, I'd only want to go in there the once and do it once and for all - a ten inch length of 3/8 squared ash weighs bugger all.

Before you cut anything, would it be possible to view it, internally ?
I mentioned on here before about using a borescope (ebay for £10/$18 dollars ) with 5m of cable hooked up to a laptop, a little creative tipping of the hull and you can get the camera head virtually all round the boat.
Pictures worth a thousand words an all that.

The cracking on the cockpit/ deck looks like it may be worth investigating just as much as the side deck, the cracks creeping right through the non slip like that suggest a lot of flex happened there.
If you're going in there anyway ?

Feel free to bug with more, I find it all interesting and weirdly satisfying.
 
image.jpg
Ahh, here's a view of the deck structure (just about make out the sandwich).
The laminates are quite thin, the foam core as you would expect is really easy to crush between your fingers...
If the sailor lands heavy on a wider deck area it's not unimaginable to envisage what might go on.
The bottom laminate strains and cracks, the foam cracks and crumbles leaving the strained top laminate holding the load, if that flex's enough the gelcoat ( fairly inflexible and brittle) cracks through to the surface...it becomes a point of ingress into the laminates.
 
Thanks Voodoo, really helpful.

The previous owner is not overly large, but an athletic build. He's a recent former college sailor and likely sailed the boat fairly aggressively. I'm going to see if I can get more info from him about that collision and the deck issue, though he's no longer in the area.

At the end of the day, I suppose it isn't necessary to determine the cause, as the letterbox incision seems the way to go to address it. I likely will have more questions for you, but I'm staring at a couple of weeks ahead with some business travel, so I may not get into this until deeper into the winter.

But I like the idea of getting a look inside. I didn't think of that, and I have one of these:
Inspection Camera.jpg
The cable fits in the drain hole, and while the cable isn't anywhere near 5m, I think I'll be able to get a look. I tried today, but ran out of battery and didn't have another 9 volt lying around where I have the boat, so I'll have to come back and try again next weekend. Not sure exactly what I'm looking for, but I'll see if I can see torn fibers, etc. and report back. I may need to get a longer cable, but from the few minutes I had before battery crapped out, I was surprised how well I could see around. Will be fun to explore more. I'll report back any findings.

I'll also likely take you up on your offer for further questions so watch this space! Thanks again!
 
Hey Voodoo,
Following some work travel and (ongoing) home renovations, I'm back again and have some questions. It may not be until next month when I actually cut her open, but I'm playing it out in my mind. After re-reading everything here, I'm still not clear on the following:

You said: "Plan here is to key then clean the inside under that long dent, apply two layers of epoxied cloth up to the underside for the full length of the dent above."

I looked around with my inspection camera, but I didn't get a great view of the subject areas. After cutting the letterbox, if I find no cracking or visible damage under the deck (just flex not tearing of fibers), I assume I can skip applying this cloth and go straight to the stringer job, right (meaning I can epoxy the stringers straight to the deck underside)?

You said: "Stringers will be applied on top ( underneath ) of this, four equally spaced running parallel with the transom from cockpit inner wall towards the gunnel."

Did you choose four specifically due to the size of the damage area…then adding the additional two when you went back in the second time? In other words, I should just use as many as I see fit based on the area of softness I have? How far apart are you spacing the stringers?

After you installed the first stringers, you said: "Then put a couple of layers of tape along the turn of the cockpit wall/ side deck - belt n braces."

Probably a similar approach to what I’d want to do with the stress cracks in the cockpit corner, right? Also, since I'll want to stiffen this corner to stop the flex here, I'll plan to make the letterbox long enough to address the whole area I taped off in the pic above, plus to get to this corner. Any concerns with an opening this large?

Regarding making the stringer mold, you said: "Wet out the tape using standard 5/1 mix and placed the two eight inch lengths on the lanolin melamine over the mould, wet the ash and forced it into the mould over the tapes and lanolin melamine for a real snug fit, the remaining longer tape went on top of the lot, completely encapsulating the ash and forming a neat plate that will stick to the side deck lower....."

Why did you use two 8" lengths of cloth here, why not just one below (in the mold) and one on top?

Regarding making the backing plate, you said: "At the same time I made the backing plate from four layers of tape about ten inches long - all this tape is 3 inch or 75 mm in new money...
Simple 5/1 mix, wetted out and in a lanolin envelope pressed between two über flat sheets of ply, viced and left overnight..."

So no other substrate...just the hardened cloth itself will be the backing plate? Do you consider this method to result in a stronger end result compared to the poly backing plate you made on the first letterbox? Those cockpit side walls get kicked a fair amount so I'd worry about the letterbox caving in. What do you think?

Again, I really appreciate your help. I'm not terribly experienced in these repairs, and information = confidence!
 
Hey TT.
Each point in turn.

Regarding 'flexing', to patch or not to patch.
The deck should be firm, if it's flexible then something somewhere has crushed/split/parted.
To install stringers on there on would certainly stiffen the area up but above them somewhere there's trouble lurking, a sheet bonded on to the area would tie everything together spreading the load with the stringers bridging the area belt n braces.
- I would, if I was in there anyway -

Stringer amount and proximity.
It's about keeping weight down and strength up, would two larger stringers do as well as four smaller ones ? Prolly not as the loading would be concentrated. Two wasn't enough for the long area in this case ( the sailor is of the larger/weightier variety) and I could totally imagine the area giving in under pressure if lightly done.
Spacing is about trying to equalise the loading as best you can throughout the job area. Merely equally spaced.

Big cut out concern.
So long as you keep your cutting neat and your cut out intact you should be ok.
It's just the more you cut out the more you have to put back = more work in backing & a tad more weight ( neglible in the scheme of things) on that side. So long as you work patiently and clean to ensure optimal adhesion of the backing tabs the cut out will bond on to, the area will be just as strong as anywhere else, no probs there.
- if it were me I'd tab the whole circumference and prolly throw on two vertical tabs at 1/3 's
image.jpg

(Apologies about the giant baby doodle)

Stringer construction.
I used two bits of cloth as it's just prudent to. A single layer will leave gaps between the weave of cloth and be only so strong, two covers the gaps in the weave and is stronger.
The single on the other side is to encapsulate the timber and tie the deck to the piece - all uniformly loaded/bonded.

The backplate.
Four or five layers laid alternately - the weave at 45 degrees of the preceding layer - fully wet out then thouroughly squeegied to push out excess resin will give a very strong piece....properly bonded and in turn, properly bonded to, will give you a strong and resilient plate..

Work methodically, with patience and keep things clean, consistent chemical ratios ( mix slowly yet steady to minimise air infusion ) and you'll achieve a good result.
 
Hi
Last time I sailed my rudder kept on popping out of its fittings to the boat, we put it down to the clip of metal holding it inplace not being able
1392823018522.jpg
1392823018522.jpg
the holding it down, have you any idea of how to fix it
 
Looks like there is some adjustment to move the metal clip down to me (dont forget to seal it or it may leak).

You may also find that just bending the clip a little will help. You might want to post a pic with the rudder on so we can see the position of the metal clip relative to the pin.

Your pintles also look quite worn to me so maybe flipping them over will do the trick. The way to tell if they are worn is if the tiller hits the cleat that control the traveller tension.
 
Hey Ben \o
Check out the clip itself look at the slots for the screws, there's a load of downward adjustment there,.
Like Paul says a close up pic from the side with the rudder on would tell us more.

Whatever though you'll be needing to reseal wih sealant ( as soon as you eek a screw undone a touch, the watertight seal is lost ) so now would be a good time to remove, clean and flip the gudgeons re sealing with fresh sealant as you carefully refit the screws...

If you do try to bend it, get it warm first ( leave it on a radiator for 10 mins ) and bend it slowly and hardly anything at all.
 
Hey Voodoo (or others), what product are you typically using for sealant? Marine grade, or standard homeowner stuff (i.e. silicon)?
 
Salt water eats household indoor silicone.
I like Sika flex, but there's loads to choose from
 
Returning this thread to it's stated topic...

I found some time to start my repair this weekend, following Voodoo's input. So far, I've only cut out the letterbox.

First, I secured the boat. Got a nice indoor work space.
Laser Deck Repair 1.JPG

Today's tools used, + the vacuum not shown. Making the cut was straightforward, with very little mess.
Laser Deck Repair 2.JPG Laser Deck Repair 3.JPG

The crack in the fiberglass is clearly evident, running pretty much the whole length of the cutout. Unlike Voodoo's mate's boat, however, I've got cheap hooker's eyelashes everywhere. This was pretty much what I expected after the input I received here.
Laser Deck Repair 4.JPG

Something I didn't expect, however, was to find 4 flotation tank caps loose inside the hull. I can see two of the tanks with their missing caps, one towards the bow and one towards the stern (very close).
Laser Deck Repair 5.JPG Laser Deck Repair 6.JPG Laser Deck Repair 7.JPG

Also noteworthy was the inconsistency in hull deck joint adhesive. It's thick in some areas, with not much in others. The second pick below shows exactly where I have some impact damage on the outer hull (shown in the third pic from outside). This is an area without much adhesive.
Laser Deck Repair 9.JPG Laser Deck Repair 8.JPG collision damage.jpeg

So...some questions I have before proceeding with the repair (which may be a few weeks out). Voodoo, if you're listening, your input is appreciated:

1) What is the best way to deal with the frayed fiberglass along the crack? Just sand it down and clean thoroughly before applying a layer of cloth?

2) What should I do about the flotation tank caps? I can definitely screw (and maybe glue?) one of them back on, possibly the second one (towards the bow) too. Are there four total tanks on these boats, or others beyond the two I see plus two more just like these on starboard? I won't be able to do anything about the ones I can't reach, of course. I can't imagine this is much of an issue. The boat is very dry.

3) Should I apply some additional 3M 5200 to the deck joint where it is thin? Anything else I should think about while in there, especially in the collision area?

4) I was thinking about what might be stronger and lighter than ash stringers, and I had the thought of using some aluminum L channel (or maybe C channel--I have both lying around). This is a freshwater boat, and they'd still get coated in epoxy. But I would think this would be stronger and lighter than wood. Any feedback on this idea? Something like this:
Laser Deck Repair 10.jpg

Thanks for the assistance. Much appreciated.
 
Hey TT
First off, Kudos for going for it.
So many would have either written the poor boat off or resort to paying a hefty ransom to someone else, good on yer..

I'll offer you my take on your questions, but please remember I'm not the worlds authority on all this, just a bloke with some insights & experience and a bunch of chemicals.

Next thing and definitely before I'd do anything else is to tape up the cut edges of the letterbox - gives it a touch of protection but more importantly keeps all those bastard fg splinters out your forearms.

The main damage crack, it's a nasty one btw.
If you were to merely scrub sand the protruding fibres away to flush, you'd still be left with a split under (over) any repair layering. Better to make this one piece again.
To consolidate is the order of the job.
I'd use either a rounded sanding/ cutting head on the dremel or maybe a potato peeler to tidy up both edges to leave a neat shallow angled 'trough' in which I'd fill with either some home made to measure chop strand fibres ( clean scrap piece of cloth & take the scissors to it - 5mm strands ?) or epoxy and appropriate filler - west & 404.
Make a resin mix and mix the fibres /filler and fill the trench, tape up, ply ? backing plate left overnight.
Bear in mind the laminate is only about 2mm thick before you reach the foam but eating into the foam a little ain't the end of the world.

The buoyancy bags - lolz..all four undone ?
Yah you should find there's just the four and some judicious use of a stick/ tent poles with a wad of gaffa tape on the end you ought to be able to work them forward round the mast tube and gently encourage them back to your access hole.
A hoover with a long extension may help - using the suction as a grabber, hitting the power button off at the appropriate moment to get around obstacles.
Well worth eeking them out and checking them for holes. The lids ? It's amazing they were all off ?
I'd refill and refit them.

The hull /deck join,
I'd give that some love while I was in there seeing as I'm in there so to speak.
Whatever material you choose to bolster the join with you'll need to thoroughly clean the area first. Usual rules apply.
Me ? I'd fillet the join with epoxy and filler and maybe a layer of glass tape over.

Re the stringers, thing is with metal it has no pores, there's nowhere for the applied chem's to go and latch into unlike timber which will soak the resin up and effectively become one with its cocoon, the ali' will remain a separate entity within the cocoon to an extent.
Trust the timber/ composite stiffener, cut the wood along its grain ( duh ) and feed it slightly thinned out resin pre cloth application. In combination with the deck structure you would really have to go some to break it all again during normal sailing.

Again, props for going for it.
 
Waah,
You should find six cubitainers, two slightly larger than the others.
-must concentrate and then proof read before posting, sorry -
 
Thanks again Voodoo. You've been a huge help and the encouragement is appreciated. I likely wouldn't have taken this on without your posts.

So...back at it, trying to find time to chip away at this project while doing some home renovation as well...not easy.

Managed to pull out all 6 cubitainers with the help of a shop vac, inspection camera and hook attached to some small diameter PVC pipe. The hook was for grabbing the last one and pulling it around the mast tube. Since all 6 caps were off (I found them all in the hull), we were able to hook it inside the opening and pull it within vacuum extension tube distance.

Final tally...3 of the 10 L cubitainers (in the stern) and 3 of the 20 L ones (in the bow). This matches what I've read should be found in these boats. All 6 of them are in fine shape, when I blow them up, they are all air tight. Just need to keep the caps from falling off again in the future, so I plan to glue them on. I wonder how many others boats out there have all of their caps off.
Laser Deck Repair 11.JPG

Next, I was in there with the Dremel as Voodoo suggested. I had the shop vac running inside the hull as I worked.
Laser Deck Repair 12.JPG
Removing the frayed strands of fiberglass was easy. Making the "v trench" less so, as the crack meanders and is worse in some areas that others. I didn't want to do too much, but I managed to clean it up a bit anyway. May do a bit more tomorrow, but I don't want to over do it either.

Here are a couple of pics showing how it's turning out, after Dremel work.
Laser Deck Repair 13.JPG Laser Deck Repair 14.JPG

My question of the day is whether to use a tube of 3M 5200 I have on hand both to fill the crack and to bolster the hull/deck joint. I don't currently have epoxy and filler, but can get some of course. Definitely open to suggestions on which is a better way to go. Voodoo, seems like you're more in favor of the West System approach...considering I'm going to need to go that route for the subsequent stages of the job as you've outlined so thoroughly above. But that darn 5200 tube is right there, calling to me!

And I was also thinking about using 5200 to glue the caps on the cubitainers--that make some sense or is something else preferable for that job?

Suggestions, tips, observations are welcome. Gotta get this boat ready for the racing season!
 
Morning,
glad to see your progress.
Satisfying to see it taking shape eh !
When I encounter bits of jobs that are horrible/daunting/knuckle bashing etc etc, my mantra is ' take your time and do each bit properly and every bit done is a bit less to do' closely followed with ' it'll only come back to haunt you if you bodge it now, patience '. It's a mindset thing.

I prefer epoxy as it's much kinder on the user than polyester, west systems ( there are others of course) offer a nice range of additives and it's reassuringly expensive.

Filling the crack with 3m ? I know the gear gets brittle over ( much ) time but check this link out.
http://www.rotdoctor.com/products/3M5200.html
I'd wait until I got the epoxy system personally.
Gluing the cubitainers ? I'd try and use a flexible polyurethane glue such as the gear cobblers use for resolving shoes.
One thing though, when you do re-inflate them, don't blow them up hard, leave a little expansion room in them for when it gets real hot in summer otherwise they may well blow off again.

Good work man, take your time, do it properly do it once.
 
Just found this thread... Interested in knowing how the project went. Triple Threat - how did it come out?

I noticed the Laser I bought this summer has a soft area much like what is described here. So many other things to do in life that I'd rather not tackle this repair but I may have to...
 
Hey TT.
Each point in turn.

Regarding 'flexing', to patch or not to patch.
The deck should be firm, if it's flexible then something somewhere has crushed/split/parted.
To install stringers on there on would certainly stiffen the area up but above them somewhere there's trouble lurking, a sheet bonded on to the area would tie everything together spreading the load with the stringers bridging the area belt n braces.
- I would, if I was in there anyway -

Stringer amount and proximity.
It's about keeping weight down and strength up, would two larger stringers do as well as four smaller ones ? Prolly not as the loading would be concentrated. Two wasn't enough for the long area in this case ( the sailor is of the larger/weightier variety) and I could totally imagine the area giving in under pressure if lightly done.
Spacing is about trying to equalise the loading as best you can throughout the job area. Merely equally spaced.

Big cut out concern.
So long as you keep your cutting neat and your cut out intact you should be ok.
It's just the more you cut out the more you have to put back = more work in backing & a tad more weight ( neglible in the scheme of things) on that side. So long as you work patiently and clean to ensure optimal adhesion of the backing tabs the cut out will bond on to, the area will be just as strong as anywhere else, no probs there.
- if it were me I'd tab the whole circumference and prolly throw on two vertical tabs at 1/3 's
View attachment 13543
(Apologies about the giant baby doodle)

Stringer construction.
I used two bits of cloth as it's just prudent to. A single layer will leave gaps between the weave of cloth and be only so strong, two covers the gaps in the weave and is stronger.
The single on the other side is to encapsulate the timber and tie the deck to the piece - all uniformly loaded/bonded.

The backplate.
Four or five layers laid alternately - the weave at 45 degrees of the preceding layer - fully wet out then thouroughly squeegied to push out excess resin will give a very strong piece....properly bonded and in turn, properly bonded to, will give you a strong and resilient plate..

Work methodically, with patience and keep things clean, consistent chemical ratios ( mix slowly yet steady to minimise air infusion ) and you'll achieve a good result.


Nice job documenting and explaining, the application tools were a bonus. My last real endeavor was 23' Nova Scotian Bluenose restoration. This included removing the deck and remounting. Wish I did a better job documenting for others. One friend went to school on my work and sold his for $17,500. Thanks again for your efforts, I appreciate them as I now have a Laser.

Best,

Cliff
 
Hey RudeJoe,
Sorry for the delay in responding...been a busy summer on a few fronts.
You know, it came out well. Been sailing the boat all season after the repair and don't have any reason to think it wasn't a success.
I was concerned about it before committing, but once I got in there and saw exactly what I was dealing with, got the help offered here (thanks again Voodoo), and found someone more experience than I with the chemicals to assist with the gooey part, it worked out well. I'm definitely glad I went after it instead of letting it get worse and continuing to worry about it.
I think the trick is to take your time and think it through at each phase. I did it in the off season as I had time, and I have an indoor storage/work area, which helped.
In the end, I'd say that it's not as bad a project as I thought it would be and I'm happy I decided to go for it. Hoping you decide the same and have good success with it.
 

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