Class Politics All about to kick off....

This whole business is a mess.

I do hope that when it's all over, all boats that measure in as Lasers will be accepted by whatever class association governs the sailing of our boats at that point. I do not want to get to a situation where we have to say that "those boats with the wrong plaques" or "those boats with the wrong name" are not welcome to play in our game. If some sailor shows up at a regatta with a boat that's built to the specs of the Laser construction manual, then I don't want to be the one that tells him he isn't welcome to come and play with us.
 
This whole business is a mess.
....
20.000 times already said here. I totally agree, Tillerman. It`s a bit like a fight of Vitali vs. Vladimir Klitschko... except that those both brothers made the wise decision: not to fight against each other!
You know, all over the world, young gun or old fart, lady or gentleman...: we just want to enjoy to play with our* nice small water-craft-toy (*:B.K.´s "baby"), if it's blowing out side and the trees&waves heavy rustle ....
We only could do, as the chairman of the UKLA (worlds 2nd biggest "Kuehlschranktuer™/ "Laser™"-class) in a message wrote, online "... we do business as usual". The same our class chairman ( of worlds 3rd biggest "Kuehlschranktuer™/ "Laser™"-class) says....
Meanwhile, me and the ~2400 others go downstairs, to hit our virtual punching bag about this messy situation with being accused by "the creator" of unfortunately owning a 'counterfeit' "Laser™" - all hoping: B.K./Rastegar&Co/ILCA/ISAF find themself into a decent solution, mediated by the high_potential-lawyers and the court (BTW, at my country: the most of the civil lawsuits end in a "deal ").
Yes 'gouv', although I live and sail at the other side of the big pool: I hear you, eating more popcorn (hihi), but I always have been an optimist (also in each of my many personal 'sailing deathroll situations' in the waves, head down in the cold water, feets out of the strap up right in the air, but still holding the main(sheet) in my hand), also here - in this "sort of disaster".


The unpleasant in this 'affair' here is: It probably needs many months to get a verdict on this issue ... and then this verdict the loser appeals to a higher court ... I'm afraid, I need to buy a reserve-/replacement punching bag, for downstairs ... :( G O U V !!! .... please, then, could you give me some of your tasty popcorn ...:eek:
Ciao
LooserLu
 
Sure do sympathize with you, and anybody else who's bought a boat recently Lu. Yes, it's a political "death roll" but as you say, we can be optimists. Have faith that the boat will right itself, and a good solution will be worked out so that all former "Lasers" will become Kuehlschranktuer™ (or whatever) class legal again.

With the exception of the perpetrator, Rastegar, (who just wants to make money??) everybody involved, Kirby, ILCA and ISAF wants the sailors above all to come out winners in this dispute.

In the meantime, there's no reason you can't race your new boat as long as you're not going to an ISAF event, worlds or a big championship. Surely your local race organizers don't check every boat for legality at every regatta? I've run a lotta Laser regattas in the 13 years since we were involved with ILCA and have never looked at a sticker on a single boat. Can't recall any class officers doing it either.

Oh, and you sure should support the kids sailing whatever plastic soap dish they are sailing. That's about kids going sailing, not about politics and shady business practices of boat builders.
 
I spoke with a representative of Bruce Kirby last week. Bruce is and has always been extremely reasonable and wanting only to do the right thing for the sailors. The ILCA indicate that the rule change was necessary to ensure the supply of boats. Bruce recognized the need to have a supply of boats for the Worlds and Olympics and was more than willing to reach a compromise that allowed the issuance of plaques for that purpose. Problem was, the ILCA is and has been refusing to talk to him. Even while they are just down the road having regular meetings with Rastegar, they refuse to talk to Bruce. It seems there was always an agenda to boot Kirby and any reasons or justifications for pushing that agenda have been false. Another way was always available and much easier. The ILCA simply didn't choose that option.

As to the counterfeit boats, if you are a sailor, I wouldn't fret too much about it. Bruce isn't an ass. Presumably, you will receive a discount on that Laser since the Kirby royalties will not have been paid. So, I have no idea if it will hold true, but it would stand to reason that if you paid that royalty to Kirby and had the boat inspected, measured in, or whatever, that Bruce would probably allow that boat to be included as class legal.

And if you have any doubts about this, just send an email to the Torch class and ask. I would guess that you will get a response that is perfectly reasonable. Send that same email to the ILCA and you will likely be completely ignored.

I have no idea why the officers of the ILCA have chosen this course of action. It makes no sense because, to my knowledge, most of these officers are good people. I can only assume that they have either lost their way or someone has them in a stalemate and if they choose the easy option, the "someone" will blow up the class. This, most assuredly is not Bruce Kirby.
 
I have no idea why the officers of the ILCA have chosen this course of action. It makes no sense because, to my knowledge, most of these officers are good people. I can only assume that they have either lost their way or someone has them in a stalemate and if they choose the easy option, the "someone" will blow up the class. This, most assuredly is not Bruce Kirby.
Lawyer's advice.
 
I am no longer a member of the Class Association (after the disgraceful rule change vote to exclude Kirby). But it would be interesting to know how much money the ILCA are allocating for legal fees and provision against any court fines.

I would have thought as the ILCA money is actually members money that it is a more than reasonable question for any member to ask AND BE TOLD. And if anybody does (and a bit of a cheek given I'm not a member) but posting what happens (what response, how much money) would be very interesting and give some insight into how well the LCA is acting on behalf of the membership.

Ian
 
Sure do sympathize with you, and anybody else who's bought a boat recently Lu. …
Thanks! From my over 35 years of sailing this dinghy I learned:

There lives a kind of ‘genie in a bottle’ /ghost inside of the hull. Sometimes it screws me, but most times this ghost is indulgent if one understand its rules to play with.

… With the exception of the perpetrator, Rastegar, (who just wants to make money??) everybody involved, Kirby, ILCA and ISAF wants the sailors above all to come out winners in this dispute. …

In days like this I remember well to an old article Kai Kueger published in the GER “Yacht” magazine (No. 24/1972 p. 110-113 “Vom Klassenampf die Nase voll” / Fed up with the class (rule) struggle): Kai was a wise reporter who in 1972 (wittingly or unwittingly) foresaw many of the problems/aspects of the today’s actual issue. The article is about the Laser (new in GER in those days) and the Sunfish.

Copyrights of the “Yacht” magazine don’t permit me to publish this article here, but sure I am permitted to quote a part of the conclusion in a translation of Kai’s text of 1972: (Sorry I am not a perfect translator, I need hours to do a perfect translation. Therefore, I take my own words and hope I do not loose the main intent of Kai’s summary):

(quotation)>> … It did need about 20 years until just only 3 of the sailing establishment, the inventors of the Laser™, grasped, into what tremendous market niche the Sunfish™ was pointing. B.K. did say it bluntly:
“Our boat has to be athletically enough to appeal 1000s of sailors that have begun their sailing life in the “wooden fleets” and now want to climb up the ladder. Coincident we are targeting to the helmsmen of the established sailing classes, that are looking for a cheap, but also “hot stuff”-racing-dinghy, in that one, without too much preparation, and without a bowman, can race ambitiously.”
The success of the Sunfish™ demonstrates that an almost infinite number of such sailors exists.
But in London (home of the former IYRU - now ISAF, transl.) they didn’t take any notice about the Sunfish™, for 20 years . Too much they (the officers of the IYRU, transl.) have been to busy to keep the sailing statutes clean of ‘daylight robberies’ at the class rules and of money/profit.
One sailing class in the hands of one manufacturer/company only – this seemed to the IYRU-honourables to be too a big privilege. They specially founded the IYRU-Holding Ltd. To that the designer has to sell his rights on his construction, before the IYRU acknowledges an “IYRU recommended” sailing class.
In long worded license-contracts it is fixed, who, in which way is permitted to build ‘recommended’-boats. And they (the officers of the IYRU, transl.) look pernickety, that after the “London profit” has been skimmed, the rest of the profit is evenly partitioned to the boat manufacturers that no one of those have a (too) big advantage.
The result: A boat builder only gets a sufficient profit, in an “IYRU-recommended” sailing class, if he is tuning his boats to be faster with “dirty tricks” to get a bigger production.
Meanwhile: Sunfish™ and Laser™ prove that the financial advantage of a monopoly boat builder doesn’t trouble the sailors as long this monopoly-system also guarantees a financial advantage to them (to the sailors, transl.) in the guise/shape of identical & simple boats that not permanently with a lot of money have to be tuned up to the newest speed/technical level, only to have to be replaced after 2 seasons by a new, faster, boat.<<(end of quotation)

Beginning with selling of the rights to Rastegar, around 2007 or a bit earlier, this monopoly system began to struggle. The quality of the boats (hulls sails spars foils) went down, but the cost to purchase a Laser™ went up, not only at LP but for PSA also. B.K. tacitly accepted this trend, as long he got his due royalties. So, for me, both, Rastegar and B.K., are not free of any innocence …. and we the sailors kept quiet for a long time as well. We have to move away from this monopoly system. The LCM is OK, but we need several builders and a good working boat measurement (that we still have, if we want). To continue the monopoly system in a new Torch™ class only will stop the struggle for a time and sooner or later the same struggle will come back again. That’s totally against the common sailors interest. Maybe the monopoly system was good for the past 35 years (1970-2005) but the nearer past (2005 to now) proves that this is an obsolete system.

…In the meantime, there's no reason you can't race your new boat as long as you're not going to an ISAF event, worlds or a big championship...
ha-ha, yes of course, I don’t participate a championship as a competitor (but maybe again as a dolly keeper! View this Youtube-Video: www.youtube_com/watch?v=OL3sCApQ5u0 (sorry, but the link failed several times, so, paste and copy the URL and delete the "_" and set a "." in front of "com/...") and you find me there in the background at 0:57 and 2:25 …) I am “the Lo(o)serLu” (guess why I got my nickname … and I really now the most of the boat names (written at their transoms) in local the racing fleets, here where I sail…).


But seriously there are aspects (to difficult for me to exact explain here in a “written in english”-forum), f.e. insurance aspects to a counterfeit boat and other aspects, to store this new boat till the lawsuit is over. I have 4 nice old nonXD-boats in my club fleet, class legal ones in good shape, to use for racing. I am the dude in the club that cares/cleans/polish/repair those 4 boats and 3 additional recreational Laser™ in the club fleet….

…Oh, and you sure should support the kids sailing whatever plastic soap dish they are sailing. That's about kids going sailing, not about politics and shady business practices of boat builders.


Perhaps a bit lost in translation in my past reply: I stop….”…. if those judges of that court at "Ct." in future decide: All "Kuehlschranktueren … are counterfeit….” ……But, not before that.

(P.S., dyzzypyxxy: Your interview in Dick Tilman’s book still is very helpful to me to introduce the Laser™ to our female sailors of the club to get them into single handed sailing, too. Some of those already now race in the Radial™ fleet.)


...
As to the counterfeit boats, if you are a sailor, I wouldn't fret too much about it. Bruce isn't an ass. …
“Your words in ‘the creators’ ear”… as here the saying is…

… Presumably, you will receive a discount on that Laser since the Kirby royalties will not have been paid…
A discount ??? Surely not of Laser™-Deutschland/Hamburg (my official –Laser™-store here), nor of LP-England…


And if you have any doubts about this, just send an email to the Torch class and ask. I would guess that you will get a response ….
Yes, sure I get a response! … Of Wesley W Whitmyer LLC haha! (That’s why my lawyer strictly prohibited me any direct contact to B.K, B.K.-Inc. and related lawyers.) To explain: At GER, B.K. (and later his heirs and their lawyers for the next 30 years, if the US-lawsuit gets lost for the ILCA) could claim indemnifications to me, directly. But, not-“vice versa”, GER laws say, I can’t have a lawsuit to B.K. nor Rastegar nor LP nor ILCA or ISAF, but to the store only, that sold me this counterfeit Kuehlschranktuer™. Crazy situation here for me. I spoke to my national chairman and he will be on my side, if there probably will come up a shitstorm of Kirby’s lawyer.

Ciao
LooserLu
 

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I spoke with a representative of Bruce Kirby last week. Bruce is and has always been extremely reasonable and wanting only to do the right thing for the sailors. The ILCA indicate that the rule change was necessary to ensure the supply of boats. Bruce recognized the need to have a supply of boats for the Worlds and Olympics and was more than willing to reach a compromise that allowed the issuance of plaques for that purpose. Problem was, the ILCA is and has been refusing to talk to him. Even while they are just down the road having regular meetings with Rastegar, they refuse to talk to Bruce. It seems there was always an agenda to boot Kirby and any reasons or justifications for pushing that agenda have been false. Another way was always available and much easier. The ILCA simply didn't choose that option.

As to the counterfeit boats, if you are a sailor, I wouldn't fret too much about it. Bruce isn't an ass. Presumably, you will receive a discount on that Laser since the Kirby royalties will not have been paid. So, I have no idea if it will hold true, but it would stand to reason that if you paid that royalty to Kirby and had the boat inspected, measured in, or whatever, that Bruce would probably allow that boat to be included as class legal.

And if you have any doubts about this, just send an email to the Torch class and ask. I would guess that you will get a response that is perfectly reasonable. Send that same email to the ILCA and you will likely be completely ignored.

I have no idea why the officers of the ILCA have chosen this course of action. It makes no sense because, to my knowledge, most of these officers are good people. I can only assume that they have either lost their way or someone has them in a stalemate and if they choose the easy option, the "someone" will blow up the class. This, most assuredly is not Bruce Kirby.


BK is a 84 year old living legend and should be treated with the utmost respect.
 
Beginning with selling the rights to Rastegar, about in 2007 or a bit earlier, this monopoly system began to struggle. The quality of the boats (hulls sails spars foils) went down, but the customers costs to purchase a Laser™ raised up, not only at LP but for PSA also. B.K. tacit accepted this trend, as long he got his due royalties. So, for me, both, Rastegar and B.K., are not free of any innocence …. and we the sailors kept quiet for a long time too. We have to come away of this monopoly system. The LCM is well, but we need several builders and a good working boat measurement (that we still have if we want). To continue the monopoly system in a new Torch™ class only will stop the struggle for a time and sooner or later the same struggle comes back again. That’s totally against the common sailors interest. Maybe the monopoly system was good for the past 35 years (1970-2005) but the nearer past (2005 to now) proves that this is an obsolete system.


Ciao
LooserLu

So what I think you are saying is we may be replacing one AH builder with another AH builder? That's kind of my concern throughout this whole mess.
 
I've posted a petition at:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/laser-fundamental-rule-change
The statements by ILCA promoting the Fundamental Laser Rule change were materially incorrect and may have significantly biased the results.
This petition requests that ILCA set aside the rule change vote and immediately revote on the proposed rule change.
The incorrect statements were:
1. ‘a builder also needs a building agreement from Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc. This provision is mostly historical. The rule was instituted at a time when Bruce Kirby held certain design rights.'
2. ‘The lawyers also informed us that the Kirby design patents had in fact expired. ... Therefore, we are proposing to change the rule to eliminate the 'building agreement from Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc' requirement.'
Statement 1 is incorrect because the building agreement was not historical and was in fact highly relevant due to existing builder contracts.
Statement 2 is incorrect and misleading. There never were patents and this statement gave the impression that Kirby rights had lapsed.
Currently ISAF and ILCA are proceeding using the Fundamental Rule change vote. Whoever wins the court case, basing the future of the class on such a deeply flawed vote is unwise.

Michael O'Brien
 
Yabbut . . . (I always wanted to name a boat that . . ) a vote of the members of ILCA worldwide takes a very long time to organize and execute.

Quicker, and possibly more effective action would be to contact whoever is going to the ISAF meeting this coming weekend from US Sailing. Most likely it will be Tom Hubbell, currently President of US Sailing. Write him an e-mail to [email protected] expressing support for Bruce Kirby, and encouraging him to stand up at ISAF and speak up to reverse their acceptance of the ILCA vote, and to scrub the idea of creating the new ISAF badge without Kirby's name on it.
 
I've posted a petition at:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/laser-fundamental-rule-change
The statements by ILCA promoting the Fundamental Laser Rule change were materially incorrect and may have significantly biased the results.
This petition requests that ILCA set aside the rule change vote and immediately revote on the proposed rule change.
The incorrect statements were:
1. ‘a builder also needs a building agreement from Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc. This provision is mostly historical. The rule was instituted at a time when Bruce Kirby held certain design rights.'
2. ‘The lawyers also informed us that the Kirby design patents had in fact expired. ... Therefore, we are proposing to change the rule to eliminate the 'building agreement from Bruce Kirby or Bruce Kirby Inc' requirement.'
Statement 1 is incorrect because the building agreement was not historical and was in fact highly relevant due to existing builder contracts.
Statement 2 is incorrect and misleading. There never were patents and this statement gave the impression that Kirby rights had lapsed.
Currently ISAF and ILCA are proceeding using the Fundamental Rule change vote. Whoever wins the court case, basing the future of the class on such a deeply flawed vote is unwise.

Michael O'Brien


I recently signed a basic real estate listing contract...After reading the thing 10 times I seeked professional advise. I know sailors are smarter than average but I would not expect anyone to fully understand a contract without legal assistance.
 
So what I think you are saying is we may be replacing one AH builder with another AH builder? That's kind of my concern throughout this whole mess.

Well, Torrid,
replacing one builder to another, if the 1st mentioned do not work well, is only one tool of the game. BK just has done exact this …. and a little bit more (= changing the name, against of the will of many of the active sailing Laserites)!

And ILCA? Well, the ILCA board/head-council is in the mid of a rejuvenation. A complete new experienced + younger ILCA board, dynamically working, would kick out, too, a weak boat manufacturer to a different, sufficient working one (ILCA isn’t stupid, they know about all the quality issues, too. Also, for many years now, they also try to get our class rule “By-Laws” less ambiguous, too, but this process hasn’t been finished yet).
But, they NEVER would come to the unlucky decision to change the name of the boat!

BTW:Imagine about the much indignities (and here I am only able to say my own experience, of many years, at my country GER-)Laserites got from the other established sailing classes, in reason the hull of our toy look a bit like “a decade 1950”/ vintage refrigerator door (Kuehlschranktuer™). Its not a joke what I tell here. And now imagine how much more indignities one in future gets if you sail a dinghy with such a silly name like “(Kirby)Torch™”!

The ILCA is our elected voice to ISAF and the ISAF still has to much influence into the Laser™ sailing class (beginning with the birth of the ILCA as a n IYRU recommended sailing class and the difficult contracts, Kai Kueger 1972 tried to explain in his report). The difficult net of contracts of former IYRU with B.K. (or what ever his company net was about), the former ILCA-heads now “have dire consequences” for us, the Laserites/sailors. I guess the actual board of the ILCA this exact have understood, too. The melange of IFAF/B.K./ILCA/boat-manufacturer* ( *: PSA/Spencer_Family and LP/Bill_Crane and Laser-Japan/Takao-Otani more or less sit in the ILCA-head, too. Source: Laser™-Handbook 2013) has to be sorted back/out into independend relationships. The change in the Fundamental rule is exact one accessible way to start the adventure into the future. I know it is not “an optimum way” to go, but in my own opinion that owns a Laser™boat ( his “baby”) B.K. now goes a bit to extreme.
(BTW: (I know she** is able to defend herself very well, but I look also to any other participant of this thread, that he* is perhaps refering to, too): To say this very passionate into the face of TLF-member ‘USA 182772’*: Bruce Kirby (and in the same way: Ian Bruce & Hans Fogh) is a hero to me, a sailing idol and I wish him to become age 120+ in good health and rich and if someone isn’t talking in deep respect to his person personally, he/she gets a lot of problems from my side! I can’t see, in most she is writing here at TLF, that TLF-member ‘Mrs.P’** (don’t know her) doesn’t has the same respect).
If I would be the US-judge that has to decide, I would try to mediate, as long as possible. A judge is perfectly to do this and has enough power (by the US-laws he/she is referring to) to seriously bring “the estranged boys” back calm to the green table and to a sufficient solution for us sailors worldwide. Although I also see the big issues between the estranged boys, seriously, there is enough space to find solutions, that’s just my opinion in the moment. Tracy is a relatively young, intelligent and a calm person; Bruce is an old, intelligent and experienced person; Rastegar? I don’t know anything about him (but all of the exiled Iranians, and I have a lot in my circle of friends, are intelligent and friendly and helpful); ISAF-representatives are intelligent enough to avoid that worldwide sailors interests (and their/ISAF’s own financial/sail-political interests) “not to miss out” in the game. Let’s wait for news of the upcoming ISAF meeting.

Ciao
LooserLu
 
... A complete new experienced + younger ILCA board, dynamically working, would kick out, too, a weak boat manufacturer to a different, sufficient working one

Except, in the real world we see this new revitalised ILCA still blindly supporting LPE - despite the long established problems facing sailors, etc. The ILCA is the universe I live in is very different from the one you talk about. There are still significant questions about the rule change vote and whatever the outcome of the ISAF meeting and petitions, I suspect the vote will come under a lot of scrutiny in court.

I support the BK moves for the following reasons:
1. Parts have been a nightmare in the UK for ages (my experience) and have stopped me being able to sail at times. These problems are largely due to LPE. These issues have been around for ages so ignoring them and maintain the status quo is not going to solve anything.

2. When there are contractual agreements in place it is not right or moral for one party to unilaterally decide to stop paying their agreed money whilst keeping their benefits. But the courts will decide that when all parties argue their case.

3. I believe that a switch to the Torch class represents the lowest disruption and least risk to the class - both for existing boats and new boats. Switching to the Torch class with new builders extracts us from the outcome of the court case. It means boats will be available, parts available and effectively extracts the boats from the court case.

4. The ILCA seems to have a strong bias in favour of LPE and they seem prepared to spend vast amounts of members money on defending this bias (and risk large amounts of members funds through potential fines should the court so decide). This is not good use of members money. When people see their money spent in this manner they are more likely not to renew and the ILCA will quickly disappear. And with no real ILCA people will be joining the Torch Class anyway. Far better to negotiate with BK to find an outcome that is in the interests of the membership (and far far cheaper as well - so they can spend all that money on e.g. youth training, class development, etc., etc. - rather than pouring it away to legal costs and fines).

5. I believe BK is trying to do the best he can for the class as well as defend his rights.

The name is irrelevant. When the Torch class is established you can bet 90% of people will still be calling it the Laser. And most people with Lasers selected them because of the boat and NOT the name nor for the logo on the sail.

Remember, all Lasers sold to date (with the BK name on the plaque) would still be 100% legal Torches (if BK wins the case) or still 100% legal Lasers if BK loses the case. So there seems no question about boats already sold (whatever the outcome of the court case). The issue becomes a risk for boats not yet sold with the not yet issued new plaque (not bearing BK's name) - and those would be a risk which is why the decision to go that route by ISAF/ILCA is just madness.

Of course a lot comes down to personal opinion - though most people seem to be favouring the Torch. It is disruption. But I believe doing nothing would be even more disruptive to the class.

Ian
 
Looks like the big guns just came out.

From Kirby Torch website:
Bruce Kirby Inc. today filed a Petition to Cancel US Trademark Registration No. 3,459,524 for LASER. According to the records of the US Trademark Office, the trademark is owned by Velum Limited, a corporation organized under the laws of Antigua and Barbuda having an post office box address in Geneva, Switzerland. Grounds for the petition are fraud and abandonment. A copy of the Petition is provided below.

I would attach the petition but don't know how! Sorry. So I guess my Laser is not a Laser anymore!?
 
Except, in the real world we see this new revitalised ILCA still blindly supporting LPE - despite the long established problems facing sailors, etc. …
ILCA’s actual statement says, they do not take party to no side of the builders (nor Rastegars network nor Spencers network nor Otani’s shipyard) nor B.K. etc. So? But to the other side, Jeff is officer at the ISAF, too -> Is ILCA in bed with ISAF because of that? And ISAF is who has the power in the sailing universe. Sometimes I have the feeling: ISAF is a doubtful financial and sailing-political industry, but my knowledge is to few to underline this with objective facts.
The ILCA is the universe I live in is very different from the one you talk about.

That sounds sad, indeed. Perhaps at my country, GER, things in the sailing world really run much better, than there where you live/sail. We’ve had a good district class chairmen over decades (Hermann Cornelius) and our new chairman (Bernd Buchert) really is a really good one, too. We have luck. Laser-Deutschland/Hamburg is a competent official LP-Sail-Laser team, they do not only talk about warranty, they replace weak new-boats (I have been witness of such a heavy warranty case in 2012) without big trouble and have all Laser parts in stock one needs. (This was not every-time this way at GER. At the past, we had many problems with the former PSE Ltd.) Perhaps I live in something like paradise for a Laserite, regarding to the many bad messages of other countries of the non support of the class, the builders etc/etc . I have respect for your opinion, Deimos.
. There are still significant questions about the rule change vote and whatever the outcome of the ISAF meeting and petitions…

Yes, I think so, Deimos. The insufficient informations-politic of ILCA-heads, during the past 3 years is inacceptable for paying members, correct. But, we know it is advised by their lawyers and this is the only reason “I” really accept in this case.
1. Parts have been a nightmare in the
UK for ages (my experience) and have stopped me being able to sail at times. These problems are largely due to LPE. These issues have been around for ages so ignoring them and maintain the status quo is not going to solve anything.

My experience at GER is different (as told above), but I agree, if it is such a bad situation at the district with the 2nd most Laser boats worldwide (and I read here at TLF it is the same situation at North America, the biggest “district” of Laser boats), ILCA-heads, aft the law case instantaneous have to decide for new builder to replace LP.
2. When there are contractual agreements in place it is not right or moral for one party to unilaterally decide to stop paying their agreed money whilst keeping their benefits. But the courts will decide that when all parties argue their case.
But for me, this is not an argument to change immediately now to the Torch-Class. Actually the Torch class is something written on a small paper on that even the ink is not dry. It’s, a builder controlled class (not a sailor controlled class), with in the moment unknown heads (inexperienced newbies to Laser/Torch sailing eventually??), no class constitution, no class rules, no support of the national sailing federations, no actual established dealer-shop-network (I only have the informations, that the builder in Europe is “Orange Performance Ltd. /NED”-> a small “warehouse building” at the Dollart-sound in NED at river Ems (my river! hi-hi) take Google-maps… to see it (~ 300km distance to my home), no internet presentation (aft weeks now!!) and the only additional Google-info: they are the “Warship”-boat builder shipyard), no list of cost for membership fees (it’s only cost free to join they permit, but it is not clear about the membership fee per year in future). I doubt, our DLAS-district-board likes to change complete and quietly under the roof of B.K.’s builder class. Sure several important officers to run successful a class at GER do retire and take away with their retirement all the knowledge to run successful a new district Torch-class at GER. A lot ( no national racing-calendar, ranking list, support to the recreational sailor to support them with international watercraft certificates, no local contacts to state-sailing-federations etc. etc.) will end in a confusion, here at my country. It is very easy to decide to found a new international sailing class, but to verify it down to district associations and down to club racing reality is really not an easy thing and needs years to establish.
3. I believe that a switch to the Torch class represents the lowest disruption and least risk to the class - both for existing boats and new boats. Switching to the Torch class with new builders extracts us from the outcome of the court case. It means boats will be available, parts available and effectively extracts the boats from the court case.

“lowest disruption” hi-hi.. -> As just told just before. It needs a lonnnnng time to establish a new national sailing class to support national “Torch_erites”. It is insufficient to support all from only one regional builders location to several countries. (For example, language problems between NED <->GER). That’s why Ian Bruce and his Byte CII and Mega Byte isn’t preferred to be sailed a lot at my country, beside of the fact that I.B. doen’t offer any interesting races at my country. The Laser here at GER is well established. In “a” upcoming next future with the Torch it would look this way at the common ranking races outside on the water: The Laser is represented by 40 boats (Std./Rad./4.7 in different ages of the boats and boat owners) “vs.” 1 or 2 Torch(-Standard)….you understand what I try to explain?
4. The ILCA seems to have a strong bias in favour of LPE and they seem prepared to spend vast amounts of members money on defending this bias (and risk large amounts of members funds through potential fines should the court so decide).
This (costs) is caused by the plaintiff of B.K. himself, too. If the “quarrelling parties” would have had come back to a mediation table the lawsuit cost wouldn’t exist. It’s difficult to say for me “whether there was the bird first or the egg” / ILCA+ISAF caused the lawsuit or B.K. It is clear, LP “did make a disservice to itself” to not pay the royalty fees to B.K., we common sailors, till now, do not know why they stopped to pay.

When people see their money spent in this manner they are more likely not to renew and the ILCA will quickly disappear.
At my country, most even know about what’s going on, they really don’t care about and still continue to go out racing and be happy. At the DLAS you have to sign out. Our class rules say this has to be done ~before 1st June or you stay another year as a paying class member. People here firstly are class member of the DLAS and then thee is a lot of space and at the very end of the tale some few have understood that some €€ of the fee is going to Falmouth/Cornwall/UK (location of the ILCA Office). Do you understand what I try to explain? At GER, it is relatively out of interest what the ILCA is doing, the DLAS at GER is our orbit to play.
Far better to negotiate with BK to find an outcome that is in the interests of the membership (and far far cheaper as well - so they can spend all that money on e.g. youth training, class development, etc., etc. - rather than pouring it away to legal costs and fines)
At my country, most don’t really know who B.K is. Youth training etc. is initiated by the DLAS and the GER sailing federation DSV or state-sailing federations (f.e.: in my state SVNRW -> http://www.svnrw.org/) and at least name-less“dude’s” like me, that run themselves “blisters on ones feets”, each year again, to catch sponsors, get the club actives motivated to run the race event (accommodation, volunteers, RC, press media, trainers of the own youth fleet, prizes sailors party 2nd program to the parents/wife’s/husbands etc.etc.) and not ILCA (nor in future a Torch class, that sits in the same way like ILCA at Falmouth/UK in their warm chairs behind their notebook with a coffee-cup at Delfzijl-Farmsum/NED) you understand me? (BTW in 2012 we got a new record of over 55 Laserites onto the surface our tiny water reservoir at the lovely Westfalian countryside. Enough decks, to walk along the start-line by dry-foot! ->http://www.segelclub-hansa.de/aktuelles/aktuelles2012.htm#lc12 )
5. I believe BK is trying to do the best he can for the class as well as defend his rights.

I believe: BK is trying to do the best he can to defend his financial-rights for his own builder class, as well.
The name is irrelevant. When the Torch class is established you can bet 90% of people will still be calling it the Laser. And most people with Lasers selected them because of the boat and NOT the name nor for the logo on the sail.
It’s your actual/own assertion, not a fact in the moment. I respect that. But I am afraid: In future, I agree, people have to decide by foot. Let’s wait and see, if your assertion comes reality. I already told, before, for me the name is not irrelevant, Laser is “cult”. But, related to many others here, I am a nothing (, sorry to says this to myself, in this case), I agree.
So there seems no question about boats already sold (whatever the outcome of the court case).
No, I am different opinion: The actual plaintiff says: LP-built-Laser, built between January-2011 to 2013-April-23th and later, are “counterfeit”. I already before did explain the consequences for GER owners of such boats and B.K. quite is intelligent enough in the moment to follow Wesley W Whitmyer, to say nothing really trustful to such boat owners. His message on his website is not enough for me to convince me in this aspect. Also: Torch races somewhere at the NED I am not interested in, but at Laser races at GER the more (Yes dyxy.., you are correct, controls/measurements of the boat really only happen at championships or in case of sailors protests, here where I live. But 95% here race in accordance to the class rules/”By-Laws”)!
Of course a lot comes down to personal opinion - though most people seem to be favouring the Torch. It is disruption. But I believe doing nothing would be even more disruptive to the class.
Yes, Deimos, absolutely! That’s why we write here at TLF (or elsewhere at the www sail forums)


Deimos, tomorrow, in about 7 hours, I participate my 450 colleagues of the county-council-authority I’m working at. We take the so called "Samba"-Train to travel to Rotterdam for a day-vacation. Although the weather forecast says “It will be rainy “ I rent a Pedelec-bike to drive via Delft and Den Haag to Scheveningen to the Coast side of the North sea and back in the evening to Rotterdam central station. In the early afternoon, if I sit in the sand of Scheveningen, lookin to the North Sea to direction England, I swear to you, I drink and cheer a dutch Heineken beer and a “Genever” to the health of B.K. and to you!

Oops, it is about 23:00 p.m. here in the moment, I just recognize, nothing in the back-bag is prepared for tomorrow early morning, so, I now have to leave immediately!

Ciao
LooserLu

 
Hi there.
I have been running a small survey for a few days:
1. Who do you support? (Bruce Kirby/Laser Performance)
2. Do you think the the ILCA should support the Kirby position? (Yes/No)
3. Do you think the ISAF should support the Kirby position? (Yes/No)
4. Do you think that Laser Performance was right to stop paying Global Sailing royalties? (Yes/No)
5. Do you support Bruce Kirby getting paid royalties as per the intent of the contracts with Laser builders? (Yes/No)

So far, just over 100 have completed the survey.

I would appreciate persons who are interested in the Kirby situation, no matter what their views, to:
1) Complete the survey
2) Asking your contacts to complete the survey
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/8P3TDZ2

I will post the results here. Will close the survey this weekend.
 
BK from my understanding is correct, holding a trademark involves not just using that trademark but also actively protecting that trademark.
 
BKI's claim is that Velum Limited has "abandoned" the trademark by allowing numerous third parties to use that trademark.

I have no idea whether this is relevant but this post on Doug/ Pam's Improper Course blog may shed some light on this.

I see nothing on those submissions that tag Velum Ltd as the TM holder, perhaps I missed it..... I do see ILCA detailed on there though....

How many more cans of worms will be opened I wonder?
 
BK from my understanding is correct, holding a trademark involves not just using that trademark but also actively protecting that trademark.

I think his claim relates to the trademark used for regattas and not the boat. If so, this is maybe an attack on the class (ILCA and ISAF) and not an attack on LPE. The blogger left out a few points.
 
Interesting development with the trademark. It's a reasonable position to take that the Kirby position is representative of the majority of Laser sailors in wanting 'the system' that has served us well to continue. I speculate that if Kirby can secure the ownership of the trademark, I'm picking that it will be sewn up properly, then sold to a builder to recover his legal costs for securing it. It's a good move, particularly if Laser Performance is a failing company.

Now if, (and I must stress "if" - because I don't know for sure) Laser Performance is failing, then some of the actions taken seem to make a little more sense to me. One plausible scenario is as Laser Performance is struggling to pay it's bills, they have simply taken their position they have so they don't need to pay Kirby the royalties they can't afford. Another plausible possibility is that the business that LP/ILCA have with charter boats events, makes them both joined at the hip. If that's the case, the ILCA executive may have made an expedient decision which protects the ILCA's income and therefore their salaries. They may simply feel they are doing the right thing to ensure the fiscal survival of the ILCA. Please note that I am speculating here. I wish that the ILCA was open about it - we simply don't know. If it is an issue, then it's solvable in many ways. This is our sport and the ILCA need to communicate far more effectively with their membership. If there are significant financial issues - it may feel like a house of cards from the executive's perspective - but here are several alternate solutions.

With the ILCA/ISAF actions (rule change / plaque etc), my understanding is that are using breach of contract to postulate that their obligations have ceased. I might be a bit rusty with contract law - however if I recall from my rather ancient studies, a foundation principle has been that if a breach occurs, that does not invalidate a contract nor release the parties from it. There are normally provisions that spell out the termination process, and I'd be very surprised if the ILCA/ISAF actions are consistent with those provisions.
 
Here's the results of the survey:
1. Who do you support?
Bruce Kirby 95%
Laser Performance 5%
2. Do you think the the ILCA should support the Kirby position?
Yes 91%
No 9%
3. Do you think the ISAF should support the Kirby position?
Yes 91%
No 9%
4. Do you think that Laser Performance was right to stop paying Global Sailing royalties?
Yes 15%
No 85%
5. Do you support Bruce Kirby getting paid royalties as per the intent of the contracts with Laser builders?
Yes 92%
No 8%
110 people took the survey - I have now closed it.
 
I don't think it will be such a painful, long transition from Laser to Torch class. The same boats will be used, the same people will sail them and very likely the same volunteers will step up to help with organization and member support. Nothing has to change but the name, and the management!! Tooling up to build the boats, and re-establishing supply lines for parts will take some time but that just takes money and communication.

The one thing we must hope is that the long-time Exec. Secretary of ILCA will be thrown to the wolves in this dispute for supporting the builder instead of the Class members who employ him. . Jeff Martin is also the ISAF Classes rep, which I simply can't understand how that's not a conflict of interest given his long employment by the Laser Class Assn. Jeff has accumulated a very large "slush fund" of members' money that we used to joke was "Jeff's retirement fund" because nobody but Jeff could concieve of any reason why the Class needed to hoarde at that time half a million pounds, which is likely over a million by now, for a "rainy day". I asked him once if he was expecting nuclear war or what, and would we be sailing Lasers after that . . . ?

Well, I must admit, if Bruce Kirby can walk away with a chunk of that money in damages, that's about as good a use for it as we're likely to see for the Class members. Maybe he will apply a little bit of it to setting up a new Torch Class office - remember he's not charging any member dues for the Torch class yet - with a whole new person to run it who won't be running a Class association for their own benefit.
 
Just to add, nice survey, Gantt! Thanks. Getting 110 people to respond in less than 24 hours is good going.

The results are no surprise. Well, maybe a bit that there were actually 6 people who do not support Kirby.
 
Just to add, nice survey, Gantt! Thanks. Getting 110 people to respond in less than 24 hours is good going.

The results are no surprise. Well, maybe a bit that there were actually 6 people who do not support Kirby.

Agreed with the results in that there was no surprise that Kirby support is the majority view - though it's more dominant than I thought it would be. The figures don't represent the fence sitters - though I haven't found too many of them... possibly the survey could have been a little more professional - also asked if the respondents were current ILCA members... etc. By the way, the survey did take 4 days to get the 110 responses. (it was also posted LinkedIn, Sailing Anarchy and Twitter).
 
Wait a minute. Are you saying the survey is not of ILCA class members?

Unless one actually worked for ILCA and/or had access to the membership database to verify membership, it stands to reason it's not strictly ILCA members.. But you already knew that ;)
 
Wait a minute. Are you saying the survey is not of ILCA class members?
I would say ILCA membership is not particularly relevant when discussing the interests of the class. I am concerned about the class and I am no longer a member of the Class Association (did not renew following the disgraceful vote - and I would have left several times again following the more recent behaviour by the ILCA).
 
I would say ILCA membership is not particularly relevant when discussing the interests of the class. I am concerned about the class and I am no longer a member of the Class Association (did not renew following the disgraceful vote - and I would have left several times again following the more recent behaviour by the ILCA).

With respect, ILCA membership is absolutely, completely, utterly, irrevocably relevant. People who care about the future of the class should join the class and be active in the class. That's the foundation that our entire sport is built on.

If you are genuinely that upset about the actions of the class then the place to do something about that is from within. Leaving the class then standing on the sideline continually moaning achieves nothing. Join up then talk to your district, your region, all the way up the line. The people are hardly inaccessible, and I'd bet they'd be much more willing to engage with someone looking to make a positive contribution.

The SA thread is a case in point. A bunch of sea lawyers and opinionated blowhards with worn out keyboards and too much time on their hands, many of whom don't sail Lasers and never have, speculating obsessively and with misplaced passion about legal minutiae of a case they have no meaningful connection with or knowledge of.

To the majority of non-class members it's a vaguely interesting diversion to waste some time having a chat about. To class members it's a potentially fatal blow to the boat and the class that we love. Which group's opinion is worth more?
 
People who care about the future of the class should join the class and be active in the class. That's the foundation that our entire sport is built on.

I agree - which is why I feel very unhappy about no longer being a member.

Leaving the class then standing on the sideline continually moaning achieves nothing. Join up then talk to your district, your region, all the way up the line. The people are hardly inaccessible, and I'd bet they'd be much more willing to engage with someone looking to make a positive contribution.
I tried contacting people to get more info, tried to request details backing up the ILCA claims and was ... totally ignored. I have been a member of many different Class Associations over the years (as I have changed boats) and I've never ever come across anything like the LaserClass Association. And I refuse to support an organisation acting in such a manner.

Like now. This class is facing potentially big changes. Some people are worried about those changes and how that will impact the class. And what communications have the membership had from the ILCA about what is happening, risks, their justification for the route they are taking, what the risks are (financially), what the risks are to the class, what the costs are likely to be, etc., etc. I've not heard much at all (though I am non a Class member - but Class members seem equally in the dark). Is this a body representing their membership ?

But that is another matter and this thread is about the Kirby Torch. And my "Class Association not relevant to the survey" comment was based on the fact that in every club I have been a member of over the last 10 years the vast majority of people sailing Lasers are NOT members of the Class Association. In other classes I have sailed a far higher percentage are members of their class association but not my experience with Lasers. And the survey is about what people sitting in the boats would like to see. Maybe a more relevant question in the survey would have been "How often do you go sailing in your Laser ?".

Interestingly I noticed that one club I used to sail at now has a handicap fleet and a Kirby Torch Fleet (used to be a Laser Fleet) - so I guess people are changing already.
Ian
 
Interestingly I noticed that one club I used to sail at now has a handicap fleet and a Kirby Torch Fleet (used to be a Laser Fleet) - so I guess people are changing already.
Ian

I would imagine many people only superfluously aware of recent happenings might think the class actually HAD changed its name. I wish local clubs wouldn't get caught up in this siliness. Right now the Kirby Torch Class Association is only a make-believe class, and I just don't see that changing any time soon.

I don't want to sound anti-Kirby, as I think he has a valid claim and is the only person in this mess who appears to care about average sailors. Obviously a protracted legal battle is not good for the class. However, I think creating a shadow class association only hurts average sailors more. Are there going to be duplicate sets of class officers running duplicate regattas? Are we going to have to pay duplicate dues?

Let me illustrate further. The Gulf Coast Masters is coming up in Florida on May 18-19. I am not going as I have family plans, but had considered attending. Is the Kirby Torch Class Association going to schedule its own set of regattas, masters circuit included? What clubs and what dates? Who is going to volunteer to run them. Will they run on the same weekends as Laser class association regattas, or will they be staggered?

I don't know what the hell is going on with the international office. I'm still hoping they fully and clearly explain their actions, but I don't expect that any time soon. In the meantime, we need to support our national level class association. That is what gets butts in boats on the starting line. Setting up a rival class association and calling our boats by a different name will not accomplish that.
 
With respect, ILCA membership is absolutely, completely, utterly, irrevocably relevant. People who care about the future of the class should join the class and be active in the class. That's the foundation that our entire sport is built on.

Redstar - Thank you; yes!

Ian - A class association of course must be aligned with its members. If most club racers don't join and just high level sailors do then the class association would of course reflect their view, rightly, no? Its an association of members. Members vote. Not a member then no vote and no voice. If you sail and race the boat and care about the class why would you not join? If you disagree with the path the class in on it would seem to be even more reason to join the class so you have a voice.

Why on earth should I as a class member care what a non-class member thinks (in terms of actions the class takes; I don't mean that as a general rule)? That would seem to be the case even more so if they don't sail a Laser and I gather the survey also did not control for that. Why should some Pixel racer have a say in what actual Laser class members want to do?

I don't say that to disagree your point of view. I would expect that the interests of the club racer you describe is much different than the Olympic, Worlds, and even Nationals level sailor would be. We all love the sport but those groups likely have very different goals, views, priorities, and drivers with regards the mess we find ourselves in. More club members in means their views will be heard and reflected which would be a good thing!

Just more misplaced passion from an,

Old Dude
 
....
Deimos, tomorrow, in about 7 hours, I participate my 450 colleagues ... We take the so called "Samba"-Train to travel to Rotterdam for a day-vacation. ...I swear to you, I drink and cheer a Dutch Heineken beer and a “Genever” to the health of B.K. and to you! ....
Done, Deimos!
(->view attachment)

It is relatively irrelevant to me, if one is an association-member or not, as long you love the same sport I do, too. But if you want to bring your sport forward, one can't do that only by sitting behind a computer and lament all day and night long in various sports forums about the mismanagement of the related sports association (ILCA).
I am only semi-active in my national class and the dude for the Laser's in my club and I never missed paying my fees to the national class association (which pays fees to the ILCA) and I never repented it.

To explain my position in the issue more clear: I support Tracy, but not Jeff_M./Jean-Luc_M.. I believe that, after the law case is settled, LP has to be replaced immediately. The new "K.-Torch"-boatbuilder (builds the "Waarschip"-Yachts, too, I heared) of B.K for the European continent really is a "declaration of war" to LP, as they are Dutch boatbuilders (in my own opinion: Dutch boat builders are among the top 3 of the best boat builders worldwide). ISAF, over the past over 40 years related to the Laser, has had too big an influence into the affairs of the ILCA, behind the curtains. I am 100% lucky with the job the Laser association of my country (DLAS) is doing, but on the other side: I absolutely share drLaser's opinion about the ILCA ( http://sailingforums.com/threads/all-about-to-kick-off.27967/page-6#post-132136 )->"...I still love the boat, but I have nothing to give to this Class which has been so unkind and dishonest to its sailors in country after country". And Deimos&Co, from reading all of your posts here: you&friends, here at this TLF-thread, are the proof of what drLaser said.
Ciao
Looser Lu
 

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