Advice to Newbs - Lessons learned from first sail

OldDog

New Member
After several months of shopping I finally got a used Laser and took it out this weekend. Had an absolute blast but not without incident. So at the risk of looking like an idiot I thought I’d start a thread on things that went wrong and hopefully get some feedback or lessons learned to avoid repeating these situations.

1. Boom pulled out of gooseneck. During a tack as I crossed the boat I knocked the boom and in pulled off the gooseneck. I am guessing that I did not have enough vang tension and/or outhaul. While trying to put it back on, I had an idea of trying a piece of line from the van key around the mast and back to the vang key to act as a mast retainer. Actually today I saw a thread about tying shock cord in the same fashion as a means to stop the vang key from dropping out. I will try that the next time I go out but I need to get some reference marks or something on my vang. Also after I replaced the boom I noticed that I forgot to get the mast retaining line above the boom. Hopefully I’ll never have the boom fall out again but if I do I’ll make sure the mast retaining line is properly positioned when I put the boom back.

2. Failure of rudder downhaul cleat. Actually it was a rivet that failed but caused the cleat to release the downhaul, there by allowing the tiller to come out of the rudder headstock. This looked ok during visual inspection but the lesson learned is to really give your hardware a thorough inspection and repair as necessary. Two books that I read recommend not using the tiller retaining pin as it snags the mainsheet so it’s just the downhaul that keeps the tiller secured. I was able to replace the tiller and just lash down the downhaul so I was pretty lucky. If that had been a rivet on the mainsheet block at the end of the boom that would have been an entirely different story.

3. Hold onto the mainsheet when you capsize. The further the boat gets from you is the further your going to have to swim after it!

4. Mainsheet tangled under rudder after righting from capsize. So the next time I capsize, I’m going to make sure the sheet is clear of the rudder before I right the boat.

That all said, in spite of the above mentioned experiences, I had a lot of fun with the boat and I am real excited to get back out with it. I won’t deny I had a lot of concerns if the Laser was the right boat for me with regards to my level of athleticism (or lack thereof), launching, returning and righting after capsize. But after my first sail a lot of those concerns were reduced to the point where I am still cautious but not intimidated. Sure I capsized once, and will certainly do it again, but righting the boat was as straight forward as every makes it out to be, and to be honest it was a little refreshing! That was a big relief. Now I’m not so worried about capsizing and can work at pushing myself a little more aggressively towards getting to the point where I can sail the boat as it was meant to be sailed. Can’t wait to get back out!
 
Great thread idea! I am taking my boat out for the first time this weekend. I'll update the thread if I survive. ;)
 
The first time I took my boat out (earlier this summer), I forgot my clew tie. It sure made outhaul adjustments have unexpected results on sail shape until I realized my error.

Lesson learned: Be sure you have rigged up your boat correctly before heading out. I know how it's easy to skip things when all you want is to get out on the water!
 
3. Why were you in the water swimming after the boat, learn to dry capsize and you will never have to swim after it... also makes it easier to right, instead of having to climb back in, you just kinda fall into the boat. There is a kid at my club that can dry capsize and get back in the boat so fast he almost has no loss of speed or heading... I deff have to practice that more.
 
1. Boom pulled out of gooseneck. During a tack as I crossed the boat I knocked the boom and in pulled off the gooseneck. I am guessing that I did not have enough vang tension and/or outhaul.

2. Failure of rudder downhaul cleat.

3. Hold onto the mainsheet when you capsize.

4. Mainsheet tangled under rudder after righting from capsize.

Well done. Critical self evaluation resulting in 4 clear, achievable points for development. We should all do this every time we sail.

The two things that always strike me when I see new Laser sailors:

1 Not enough outhaul on. (or occasionally, way too much) a good rule of thumb is wrist to fingertips distance from boom to sail foot at the deepest part. It is difficult to lose the boom from the gooseneck at this tension but if it still a problem, before exploring ways to secure the vang key, consider setting a "minimum off" for the vang with a stopper knot in the control line

2. Rudder not vertical. Usually because there is an issue with the downhaul line and few people ever look back at it when sailing. It is well worth spending some time ensuring that the tiller fits snug in the stock and remains there without the retaining pin or downhaul line tension and developing a way of quickly getting the rudderblade down and secure. Then you can just sail and forget about it.

Holding on to the sheet when you capsize is good advice for any new sailor. It'll never break unlike the tiller extension.

You are quite right...capsizing never loses it's shot of adrenalin but it soon becomes far more familiar and easier to manage...

Glad you're enjoying yourself.
 
In one of the books I read it showed a series of pictures of a guy capsizing and stepping over the gunnel onto the centeboard, kind of straddling the boat. Just like you said he dropped the boat back down and got right in and underway. Definitely looks like a skill to develope especially if you race.
 
In one of the books I read it showed a series of pictures of a guy capsizing and stepping over the gunnel onto the centeboard, kind of straddling the boat. Just like you said he dropped the boat back down and got right in and underway. Definitely looks like a skill to develope especially if you race.

When capsizing to leeward stepping over the hull onto the dagger board (dry capsize) is not too difficult (for me it is normally a fairly slow capsize to leeward with time to realise what is happening). However, windward capsizes always seem to happen quickly and I am starting from the wrong side of the boat and thus I always end-up swimming round.

Ian
 
In one of the books I read it showed a series of pictures of a guy capsizing and stepping over the gunnel onto the centeboard, kind of straddling the boat. Just like you said he dropped the boat back down and got right in and underway. Definitely looks like a skill to develope especially if you race.

This is actualy a great deal easier than it looks and well worth parctising, as Deimos says, usually leeward capsizes give you plenty of time to get over the side. For me It's usually when i've miss-timed geting my huge bulk across the boat in a roll tack. I used to do this for a rest when I was a kid.
 
For most of us, capsizing by rolling in to windward while sailing downwind in waves is more common than a capsize to leeward. As you develop your skills, you'll find that leeward capsizes become relatively rare.
 
Hi again

Went out second time a here is what I learned.

1. Bass boats with trolling motors are at the mercy of strongs winds too. When approaching withing the last few yards of the dock the wind really picked and started getting squirley shifting direction. A bass boat was also approaching the ramp with an electric trolling motor. I asked for right of way and the bass fisher thankfully gave way. After we both docked he explained that he too was losing control as as well at the wind was overtaking his trolling motor and the gas engine is not allowed. Lesson learned, be watchfull for approaching gusts when landing and don't push a bad situation. In retrospect the better move would have been for me to just bear off and come around again for a second pass.

2. When jumping out of the boat do it quickly. I have to land at a boat ramp with a pier on either site. As I was crossing the gunnel one leg got tangled in the mainsheet. (subject of another thread). This split second with me sitting with my weight on the gunnel and one leg in the water caused the boat to turn sharply in that direction. I kind of nosed into the pier. Not bad but could have been much worse.
Lesson learned. Make sure the mainsheet is well out of the way when you go to jump out and be mindfull that the boat will turn into the direction you are getting out.
 
Docking in some locations can be very difficult if the dock/pier is designed for larger boats. Unless you approach from downwind and can simply nose the boat to the dock with your sail luffing, you are ok. But often you end up upwind and when against the dock the sail can't luff because the boom is pushed against the dock/pier. In my early years I actually "capsized" the boat onto the dock and had the whole front of the boat pulled out of the water so that the mast was level with the dock.

I have now learned to get fairly close to the dock, quickly luff up and release the sail from the outhaul. I grap the corner of the sail in my hand and play "human boom" approaching the last 30 feet to the dock. It if then very easy to control your speed and you can release the sail in a split second. In heavy wind you can even just make the final approach under bare poles.

The only downside is if something goes bad you can't quickly sail away upwind. I reserve this technique for quiet harbors and tall docks.
 
About the vang, maybe tie a knot or begin a daisy chain at the point where the vang will be "max eased", or as loose as you would be willing to let it go on the water. Do this on land before you leave the dock/beach and you should probably never have the boom/gooseneck problem again. (It will take some tinkering to find the right "max eased" spot for you, but once you have it, it never has to come out: you can just leave the knot/chain etc. wherever you found to be the best spot)

Also, if you tighten the rudder bolt (using two wrenches/vicegrips etc.), the rudder will not be inclined to kick up as much. Then, if the retaining line comes loose, the only result will be the tiller jiggling around a bit.

Hope that helps.
 
The vang should be kept at least with the slack pulled up and its a good idea to pre set for the appropriate max ease setting. Outhaul should be about a hand deep at the boom cleat, make sure you have a clew tie down.

I use the tiller pin and It doesn't get snagged, the part thats sticks out is round, I know I don't want to go swimming around looking for my tiller in 25kts and big waves. Also make sure the rudder tab in between the gudgeons is functioning, it seems pretty common to see rudders fall off with the tiller after a capsize when the clip is not working.

Holding the mainsheet might be good if you capsize to windward downwind and the sail is still filled pushing the boat away. If the sail is flat on the water just grab the boat.
 
In one of the books I read it showed a series of pictures of a guy capsizing and stepping over the gunnel onto the centeboard, kind of straddling the boat. Just like you said he dropped the boat back down and got right in and underway. Definitely looks like a skill to develope especially if you race.

Went out yesterday and was afforded the opportunity to try this. Either I’m too slow or too heavy (probably the latter). I managed to stay in the cockpit and as the boat was lying on its side I tried to stand and get over the gunnel to right the boat. What happened instead was I completely rolled the boat 180 degrees mast down pointing to the bottom of the lake. I was then afforded a new opportunity to recover a turtlled Laser! :D One more skill acquired, one less thing to fear. Opportunities abound!
 
I managed to finally take my boat out for the first time so I can now happily contribute to this thread.

1) Kailua bay conditions were supposed to be 10-12mph but ended up closer to 12-18mph. I car topped on my Xterra using Walmart "noodles" to pad the rack. The wind was manageable but lighter winds would probably have been better.

2) My wife and buddy helped rig and launch. I did all the sheets. My rudder is bolted down (does not kick up) so it was last after the boat was in the water. My friend attached the rudder while I held the boat in place but he managed to feed it incorrectly through the traveler without me noticing. I performed a magnificent capsize right in front of the dock.

3) Did not sheet in enough during tacks and managed to tangle the tiller and mainsheet.

4) In higher wind conditions I did my tacks very slow. I capsized several times trying to get through the NGZ because the wind had started blowing me backwards reversing the tiller steering.

5) My PFD kept catching on the boom during tacks. My sail had a decent shape but is there something I can do to give me a little more clearance? Another 3" or so and I would have been good.

6) I will not make the Olympics any time soon. :)

On the positive side:
1) I had a great time!

2) Capsizing is not nearly as violent as crashing while in a windsurfing hardness.

3) I made my final three tacks!

4) I could cover the entire bay (~1.5mi) pretty quickly. Sailboards are faster but not by much.
 
Went out yesterday and was afforded the opportunity to try this. Either I’m too slow or too heavy (probably the latter). I managed to stay in the cockpit and as the boat was lying on its side I tried to stand and get over the gunnel to right the boat. What happened instead was I completely rolled the boat 180 degrees mast down pointing to the bottom of the lake. I was then afforded a new opportunity to recover a turtlled Laser! :D One more skill acquired, one less thing to fear. Opportunities abound!

The trick is getting getting onto the board quickly, close hauled to beam reach you'll usually be hiking so you're in a good position to step over onto the board, windward capsizes on the downwind legs are the most common area for turtles in racing.

it takes some practice to get it, it only takes a few seconds for the boat to go into a turtle, in big waves you're more likely turtle, if the boat starts to turtle its usually quicker and easier to jump in and swim around.
 
It seems most of my near (and both of my full capsizes) were to the windward side. Two most probable causes are (1) admittedly I am overweight for the boat and (2) it's a radial so there is less sail area to support my excess ballast. Actually when I am sailing I’m not hiking out a far as the rest of you guys. Also where I sail the wind is very gusty. It can blow pretty strong and then die out in a snap. I find the boat very responsive to wind shifts so this is a different sailing experience all together compared to my last boat.

One thing I am noticing is that when I’m sailing close hauled on a pretty steady gust, when I bear off I expected the boat to want to heal leeward as I am now presenting more sail area. What I am finding instead is that as I bear off the boat want to heal windward. If this gets extreme the boat to turn windward into the no-sail zone. Now with me hiked out and no wind in the sail this is when I capsize (or come close). Both of my capsizes were a result of this. What I learned to do is really pay attention to the boat and in some cases lean in as I bear off. I then reset my sail and hike accordingly to flatten the boat. I was also pretty happy to find that I am getting better at seeing the wind and anticipating the gusts.

Great incentive to get in better shape so I’m working that issue and I plan on getting the standard rig so hopefully spring I’ll be in a better position.
 
It seems most of my near (and both of my full capsizes) were to the windward side. Two most probable causes are (1) admittedly I am overweight for the boat and (2) it's a radial so there is less sail area to support my excess ballast. Actually when I am sailing I’m not hiking out a far as the rest of you guys. Also where I sail the wind is very gusty. It can blow pretty strong and then die out in a snap. I find the boat very responsive to wind shifts so this is a different sailing experience all together compared to my last boat.

One thing I am noticing is that when I’m sailing close hauled on a pretty steady gust, when I bear off I expected the boat to want to heal leeward as I am now presenting more sail area. What I am finding instead is that as I bear off the boat want to heal windward. If this gets extreme the boat to turn windward into the no-sail zone. Now with me hiked out and no wind in the sail this is when I capsize (or come close). Both of my capsizes were a result of this. What I learned to do is really pay attention to the boat and in some cases lean in as I bear off. I then reset my sail and hike accordingly to flatten the boat. I was also pretty happy to find that I am getting better at seeing the wind and anticipating the gusts.

Great incentive to get in better shape so I’m working that issue and I plan on getting the standard rig so hopefully spring I’ll be in a better position.

You should not be capsizing to windward on a beat..unless you weight upwards of 500 pounds. Bearing off, if you're not luffing, will make the sail LESS efficient. It's not about "presenting area", it's about getting the sail acting as an air foil. That is why you capsized to windward.

If the boat is heeling to weather (heeling on your side of the boat) it should want to bear off, not head up.

Are you sure you're not confusing bearing off and heading up? Your nomenclature seems confused.
 
Hi Theodore,

Thanks for getting back. No I'm not confused on the terminology of bearing or or heading up, but perhaps I am misreading which way the boat want to go during the capsize. It happens pretty quickly and my mind is focused on trying to stop it. What I do know for certain is that as I am sailing close hauled and I start to bear off away from the wind the boat does indeed want to heal to the side I am sitting on. The most likely contributer is that I am about 35lbs overweight for the boat (working on it) so I would expect the boat does not respond exactly as designed. There might even be centrifical force involed. Your statement about maintaining proper sail trim during the maneuver is probably in play as well. I'll focus on that the next time I go out. Still getting used to the boat. Like I said it is quite a different animal than my last boat.

But you may be correct that I am confusing which way the boat start to head during the capsize.
 
Hi Theodore,

Thanks for getting back. No I'm not confused on the terminology of bearing or or heading up, but perhaps I am misreading which way the boat want to go during the capsize. It happens pretty quickly and my mind is focused on trying to stop it. What I do know for certain is that as I am sailing close hauled and I start to bear off away from the wind the boat does indeed want to heal to the side I am sitting on. The most likely contributer is that I am about 35lbs overweight for the boat (working on it) so I would expect the boat does not respond exactly as designed. There might even be centrifical force involed. Your statement about maintaining proper sail trim during the maneuver is probably in play as well. I'll focus on that the next time I go out. Still getting used to the boat. Like I said it is quite a different animal than my last boat.

But you may be correct that I am confusing which way the boat start to head during the capsize.

I'm not sure about centripetal force. Lasers are pretty slow in the grand scheme of things. An Inter-20 cat will buck you in jibes no problem, but they also goes 25 knots with ease.

Bearing away from the wind with an overtrimmed sail is akin to running dead before the wind. The sail stops foiling, and now works like a windbag. Of course, this will stop you from healing, there is much less force. In fact, on some larger (much larger) boats, it can be safer to bear away than head up in a puff. Heading up can leave you in irons, and playing the main is impractical.

Your weight really shouldn't change anything. The boat will be slower and heel less, that is about it.

Be gentle on the tiller. If you are bearing away while close hauled, and capsize to weather, you're pretty damn far off the wind.

Just a review.
Capsize to Leeward - You fall on the sail
Capsize to Weather - The sail falls on you
 
As a fellow newb I thought I'd bring this thread back.

I have a question about the rudder/tiller interface. I just bought my boat and it came with a carbon tiller (no name, very flat, metal plate for the traveler). It doesn't fit in the rudder head very well. The pin was just making it worse, so I won't use that.

What is the best way to fix this? Jamming it in using the rudder downhaul doesn't seem to help. It gets tight enough up and down, but still moves quite a bit side to side.

I read someone saying they used some tape around the tiller, but that seems like a bad idea to me.
 
As a fellow newb I thought I'd bring this thread back.

I have a question about the rudder/tiller interface. I just bought my boat and it came with a carbon tiller (no name, very flat, metal plate for the traveler). It doesn't fit in the rudder head very well. The pin was just making it worse, so I won't use that.

What is the best way to fix this? Jamming it in using the rudder downhaul doesn't seem to help. It gets tight enough up and down, but still moves quite a bit side to side.

I read someone saying they used some tape around the tiller, but that seems like a bad idea to me.

The head of the tiller gets worn over time. Mix up a bit of epoxy and apply to the wear spots and you'll have a nice, snug fit again.
 
The head of the tiller gets worn over time. Mix up a bit of epoxy and apply to the wear spots and you'll have a nice, snug fit again.

It doesn't really seem to be worn, but I'll try and build it up anyway.

Any type of epoxy recommended? I don't have anything yet. Just build it up and then sand it down until it fits tightly? Is it supposed to sort of wedge and get bigger from back to front?
 
Pedal, the shape of the tiller jam is correct smaller aft, larger forward. the flat side faces down while the side with the slope faces up. If the tiller wedge isn't snug in the rudder head and moves side-to-side but not up or down.
1. Go to West marine, or any other boating store and pick up a combo kit of expoy resin with a hardner. Should be about $20USD.
2. Using tape and cardboard built a form around the sides of the tiller wedge. mix up a small amount of the expoy resin following the directions on the can, and then pour into the form you've made. it need only be about a 1/8 to a 1/4 inch deep.
3. Allow it to harden, then remove the form and test the fit.
Too lose?, repeat molding and pouring. too tight? using sandpaper gently sand down the entire flat surface evenly, checking the fit often.

hope that helps; Good luck!
 
I actually looked again, and it's actually the rudder head that's bent on the sides. The carbon tiller is just fine and almost new.

I think I'm gonna try to bend the metal on the rudder head and flatten it out. Maybe just blocks of wood on each side and some good wacks with a hammer.
 
I actually looked again, and it's actually the rudder head that's bent on the sides. The carbon tiller is just fine and almost new.

I think I'm gonna try to bend the metal on the rudder head and flatten it out. Maybe just blocks of wood on each side and some good wacks with a hammer.
There are very few problems in this world which cannot be solve by the porper application of either a hammer or high explosives...
 
There are very few problems in this world which cannot be solve by the porper application of either a hammer or high explosives...

Turns out that the proper tool was some big vice grips. Just bent the edges of the rudderhead flat again, fits perfectly now. Still has a bit of movement up and down, but I'm not gonna worry about that for now until I get a sail in and see how it goes.
 
my biggest advice to a potential Laser buyer is...You better like swimming, cuz you are going to be doing a bit of it

Ow. I've seen several lasers sailing in my area, the top 5 foot of the sail was algea green.

So far I have only capsized once. I just read in a west marine catalog about a boomvang upgrade pulley recommended to prevent the "laser death roll" from an under trimmed sail on a broad reach? Can anyone shed some light on this? I was going downwind on a broad reach, when unexectedly the boat suddenly rolled to windward. Any other gotcha's???
 
So I got my first sail (post college) in this weekend. It's been about 5 years since I last sailed a Laser in high school, and that was with the old controls and much less knowledge.

Winds were about 0-15, no joke. It was much gustier than I remember, even for a lake. I was sailing in a cove and the wind was mostly off the land, so that was making it squirrely.

I was slow, my tacks and jibes were horrible at first and just bad by the end of my couple hours. I capsized a few times. Once I managed to get halfway over the gunwale, but then the boat started to turtle and I fell between the boom and the boat (somehow wrapping myself in the mainsheet on the way)

I think two of the capsizes (it was all a blur) were to windward on a beat. I'd be hiked pretty far, the wind would just dissapear, and I couldn't get in the boat quick enough. Besides learning to watch the water better for wind to anticipate the lulls, how do you avoid these?

I was also getting my PFD caught on the boom during tacks and jibes (as was another poster). I could avoid it but I basically had to get both knees into the cockpit straddling the hiking strap and then bend all the way over. I had a drysuit on, so this may have been part of the problem. The PFD is some Extrasport with really skinny shoulder things (it's also annoying because it rides up when you're in the water and tries to drown you).

I also ended up with my mainsheet caught on the transom which caused at least one of my capsizes. The boat ends up heading up much faster than you expect. I've read a few ways to avoid this but what do you guys do? Sheet in before a jibe like you would on a big boat?

My telltales also ended up stuck to my sail like glue. They're yarn that came with the sail from Intensity. Should I get some magnetic tape or something else?
 
I was also getting my PFD caught on the boom during tacks and jibes (as was another poster). I could avoid it but I basically had to get both knees into the cockpit straddling the hiking strap and then bend all the way over. I had a drysuit on, so this may have been part of the problem. The PFD is some Extrasport with really skinny shoulder things (it's also annoying because it rides up when you're in the water and tries to drown you).

Last summer when packing my sailing gear I somehow missed out my PFD and rather than not sail, the club had some old discarded ones around and I borrowed one and had loads of problems getting it caught on the boom. Maybe it will just take some time to get used to it or maybe if it is riding up on you it is not well suited to Lasers.


I also ended up with my mainsheet caught on the transom which caused at least one of my capsizes. The boat ends up heading up much faster than you expect. I've read a few ways to avoid this but what do you guys do? Sheet in before a jibe like you would on a big boat?

When gybing as the boom starts across I give a full arm length pull in on the mainsheet (i.e. arm from inboard to right out over my shoulder). Then, as the boom comes across so I grab the mainsheet section running under the boom and give that a pull. all this pulling is when the sail is already moving so you are not pulling against load, just taking in slack. Also, when you can, roll gybing helps a lot (so the mainsheet is well clear of the water and drops across.

I imagine everybody has different tricks that work so I'll be reading what others say to help me improve my own technique (and it does need improving - a lot). The other time I have problem with mainsheet round transom is before starting when slowly tacking round e.g. reach to beat through tack and back down onto a reach, all done slowly and without bothering to take mainsheet slack in - ends up round transom but then you have time to sort it out.

My telltales also ended up stuck to my sail like glue. They're yarn that came with the sail from Intensity. Should I get some magnetic tape or something else?

I have wool on one sail and light nylon proper ones on another sail and once they get wet they stop working. Do you have a wind indicator (bow, gooseneck or top of sail) as I find they also help. I tend to use telltales more when beating and wind indicator(s) more as one moves round to a run.

(I am no expert so am just recounting what I do and not advising it as the correct/best way).

Ian
 
Sounds like your buoyancy aid isn't a great design for laser sailing. Try wearing a lycra bib over the top to hold it in place and stop it catching on anything - cheaper than buying a new BA. I hate sailing without a bib and my BA is designed for the job. Attached pic isn't the clearest for showing a bib but hopefully you can see what I mean (grey bib over black waterproof and black BA)

There are lots of videos on youtube or the boat whisperer DVD's have lots of gybing footage and tips. If its catching you need to roll the boat and flick the mainsheet - video is much better way of demonstrating so you'll understand.
link is the first video that came up in youtube for me, lots more out there.

You can spray your telltales with lube spray and this stops them sticking so much. As you get better you'll capsize less anyway so will be less of a problem.
 

Attachments

  • Laser_7822.jpg
    Laser_7822.jpg
    140 KB · Views: 43
If your PFD is riding up in the water it is either not snugged down enough or it is not properly fitted. To see if it is properly fitted, while on land, adjust it to a snug but comfortable fit, including any adjustment slides on the shoulders. Then have a friend grab the life jacket on top of the shoulders and pull up. If it moves up to your ears, get a different one. Mine has the bulk of the flotation in the front so there's a nice low profile in the back, making it less likely to catch on the boom.

In squirrelly conditions, bear away with tiller and release the sail a foot or more, while you are leaping in.
 

Back
Top