Class Politics Laser sail quality and cost

To Gouvernail

The trouble is proving that you saw something before. A couple of hundred boats presented at a regatta it's excessively easy to miss something when you spend approximately 5 minutes on each boat. One piece of shock cord tied in the wrong location, a rubber O'ring on a block where it's not meant to be. The measurement form of my choice to use has 100+ points to look for. While I can't necessarily name names, when you see 5 competitors coming through as they are about to launch, from the one team and they all have the same issue it's pretty damn easy to assume you didn't miss it on all 5 boats from the one team during the principle measurement check and they have reverted back to the original settings or did not present their boats rigged in the manner they are going onto the water for the first race.

The fair solution is to give them the benefit of doubt, get them to change the boats before they go onto the water, recording there sail number and then check them the following day as they go onto the water. If the problem still exists, you then take it to protest.


To Kratos

Following on from above, if you see the same people present boats at the next regatta, you're naturally going to be even more careful and thorough with your measuement check. People on this forum have even admitted to doing blatently illegal things, you wouldn't make sure that they weren't doing at a regatta you were measuring at.

If you want everybody to measured equally, then give me 3-4 hour per boat and I will completely and carefully check each boat 100%. Until that happens, I will measure boats in a reasonable manner to catch most faults and specifically target competitors on certain aspects where they give me cause to concern from there past actions.
 
To Gouvernail,

I don't object to the sentiment of holding a judge to a high standard. I do object to jumping to conclusions and overwrought language. Remember Ribecca? You drove her away with some fearsome threats because you didn't understand the term "psych."
 
Whatever happened with the "new sail" that was being shown around? Will we see a newer, longer lasting design?
 
To Kratos

Following on from above, if you see the same people present boats at the next regatta, you're naturally going to be even more careful and thorough with your measuement check. People on this forum have even admitted to doing blatently illegal things, you wouldn't make sure that they weren't doing at a regatta you were measuring at.

If you want everybody to measured equally, then give me 3-4 hour per boat and I will completely and carefully check each boat 100%. Until that happens, I will measure boats in a reasonable manner to catch most faults and specifically target competitors on certain aspects where they give me cause to concern from there past actions.

I mostly agree with you, then.

The way you said it before, however ("got on my wrong side before"), made it seem like it was something more personal, rather than simply recurring issues with the same boat.
 

Exactly. This man is volunteering his time, experience, and expertise to make our game fun and fair.

Give him a break.

This is the same reason I don't agree to referee my son's soccer games. Angry parents shouting accusations.
 
No doubt you're correct Torrid, but what makes the sails so expensive is the number of people taking a cut on the final price of the sail. There is an economy of scale in the production of the sails, but the cloth production would still be quite small because no one else uses the obsolete cloth.

Authentic Laser Sails:

Laser Dealers
Builders (PSA, PSE etc)
Sailmakers
Government taxes and duties
Shipping Companies
ILCA
ISAF (I think they get a cut)
License Holders

Wow! Who runs this class, the mafia? Its just so surprising that this class lets this happen. If this is one of the biggest class associations out there, then these people should bow down and kiss our feet, not steal every little crumb from the class.
I have said it before, and will say it again...who in the hiearchy of this orginization is in bed with these people? Rediculous and absurb.

Now Im reallly Happy to have bought an Intensity sail, and no I wont race with it, nor will I pay class dues to line the pockets of these scammers.
 
I for one have appreciated the many hundred of hours you have given of your time Alan. The way in which you put your own sailing second to the needs of the class and made the measurement process a quick and painless affair was always a pleasure to see.

I for one hope you keep with your laser sailing for a long time yet. It would be nice to still be sailing against you in our seventies, god willing.


What a thankless job acting as the sheriff for our class!




"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please." Mark Twain
 
I appreciate the response posted by AlanD.

Please understand, I did not want to believe he is one of those who regularly rants about cheaters while being unwilling to actually DO SOMETHING about the problem.

As one who has played the measurer role at many regattas and has even endured the wrath of frustrated cheaters who have been caught red handed, I feel obligated to remind those who mis read my comments above...

The post was not trashing AlanD for contributing his endless hours of effort.

My intent was to object clearly and forcefully to that which I perceived to be a baseless and unsupported genaralized accusation.

Volunteers who do their very best to police the game are to be thanked and appreciated by those of us who , as a result of other people's efforts, get to enjoy a fair playing atmosphere.

However

Our game has a defined proper system for making accusations about alleged cheaters.

Whether it be a competitor slandering another , a parent slandering a child competitor, or a judge sandering a competitor or entire fleet...

I will ALWAYS be THE GUY who stands up and demands facts or retraction.

Lynch mobs have no place in this world.

<<<end hijack>>

On topic??

I hope the builders can fiugure out a way to provide decent enough equipment to end this argument.
 

Krackos, Ignorant is uninformed, and maybe thats me.

Dumb is when someone is trying to speak up for you and the paying members, and all you do is slam them. How about some intelligent debate, or an explanation? I would like to join this class and race these boats, I just need convincing that my money is going to be properly used. Maybe there are others that are in my boat, and when people like you just say "let them stay ignorant, its easier", well that really doesn't promote your class in a positive way. Your avatar picture dsiplays you pretty well apparently.
 
Krackos, Ignorant is uninformed, and maybe thats me.

Dumb is when someone is trying to speak up for you and the paying members, and all you do is slam them. How about some intelligent debate, or an explanation? I would like to join this class and race these boats, I just need convincing that my money is going to be properly used. Maybe there are others that are in my boat, and when people like you just say "let them stay ignorant, its easier", well that really doesn't promote your class in a positive way. Your avatar picture dsiplays you pretty well apparently.

This has been discussed so many times, it's unbelievable.

Due to the slow traffic here, the thread is probably still on the first page of the Class Politics forum.

I never said to let you remain ignorant. I was sarcastically implying you obviously made that comment out of ignorance and that it's easy to do so when you have to clue regarding the inner workings of the class

To be honest, I don't care to promote the class.

The comment about my av...?
 
Krackos, Ignorant is uninformed, and maybe thats me.

Dumb is when someone is trying to speak up for you and the paying members, and all you do is slam them. How about some intelligent debate, or an explanation? I would like to join this class and race these boats, I just need convincing that my money is going to be properly used. Maybe there are others that are in my boat, and when people like you just say "let them stay ignorant, its easier", well that really doesn't promote your class in a positive way. Your avatar picture dsiplays you pretty well apparently.

http://www.laserforum.org/showpost.php?p=139642&postcount=50
 
Kratos, now thats an avatar!

I know this has been discussed, but why is it still a problem for those of us who haven't been brainwashed that "this is just the way it is in an organization".

I have been a member of 3 sailing organizations/classes. Here is my experience.

In F18, there are 5+ manufacturers, and several serious sailmakers. Its an ISAF recognized class, and my hunch is that when cats are invited back to the olympics, the F18 will be that class. As a sail dealer for a short time, there were never any kickbacks to the class. Im sure we payed ISAF something, but it wasnt a piece of everything sold.

A Cat class Awesome internationally recognized class with many manufacturers and sailmakers. No kickbacks here either.

I was also a member of the Lase class for 1 year until I sold my boat. Now I learn that on top of dues, the class and the manufacturer(SMOD) get a piece of everything that is sold. Its a strong class, one that ISAF and many sailing orginizations want be associated with, so why, why, would we pay them? They should be courting us, offering incentives to get the Laser at thier regattas, giving the class discounts and such. But instead we pay them. In my small pea brain it juts doesnt add up. Its not how all major organizations operate, maybe some, but I assure you not all.


2 questions Are the manufacturer sails inferior in cloth, design, or price?

Does the class want/need a change?

If the answer is yes to either, then why not change?
 
I didn't read much of your post, but yes, the sails are essentially poor quality.

When you have guys using sails for one regatta, that says something.
 
That is incredibly insulting, and you'd better explain yourself.

Have you read all the posts in this thread in their entirety?

I just went back and checked to see if the sarcasm made sense/stood out and, based on the condition above, it does.

But, here:

Now Im reallly Happy to have bought an Intensity sail, and no I wont race with it, nor will I pay class dues to line the pockets of these scammers.

I think you should acquire an understanding of how the association/class works (not just the builders association) before you start name calling...

Nah. It's easier to say stuff like that when you remain ignorant.

(Link to a post mad by Tracy.)

But how do you know Tracy isn't just a scammer, with his pockets being lined?

Those pesky scammers.

*Shakes fist*

...
 
2 questions Are the manufacturer sails inferior in cloth, design, or price?

Does the class want/need a change?

If the answer is yes to either, then why not change?

Probably the answer to both is yes. But the class also takes the one design aspect seriously and as a result, change is slow, particularly when it makes older equipment obsolete.

People were upset back in 1985/86 when the sail cloth changed from 3.2 oz to 3.8 oz, people had gone out only a few months earlier and purchased sales which were slower in many wind conditions. The original cloth was used for about 13 years and the current cloth for 24 years, any change now will be huge. It's been a huge mistake IMO to leave the sail cloth specs untouched for so long. Any change in cloth will also have a design change, but fundamentally the sail design is OK.

Personally, I think the sail cloth and maybe some other aspects should be reviewed every 4 years, post Olympics. Make the changes small and regular, so that older equipment is not completely obsolete. Possibly limit all class rule changes occurring on a 4 year basis, as they seem to be changing every year now.

Pricing is another area where I think the ILCA and builders need to act. The likes of Intensity, Rooster etc need to be priced out of the laser parts market if the class is going to survive in the long term. As a measurer I couldn't tell an official class authorised mast plug from a Rooster mast plug (not that I've seen one in real life) but the (knowing) usage of one whilst racing is not just illegal, but according to the ILCA definition in the handbook,” cheating”, as is any non compliance with the class rules. As I said earlier, there is a s*** fight developing and I feel this will impact on the future of the class. The strength of the class comes from it being a strict one design class with tight controls on the manufacturers.

To become like other classes which aren't as tightly controlled will have a negative impact. With other classes which aren’t as tightly controlled, older boats become completely obsolete, a laser on the other hand with relatively little cost, an older boat can be reasonably competitive. Further in other classes, there is often a rush by the competitive sailors to use the same equipment as the current National or World Champion, to remain competitive, leading to the not so competitive sailors being left behind, using local sail makers with obsolete designs and equipment. Being able to purchase with relative ease, the same equipment as anyone is a major plus for the class, it eliminates the whole “he’s only quicker than me because he imports his mast from Company A in Germany, sail from Company B in the UK and boards from Company C in the USA.

The longer the ILCA and builders bury their head in the sand hoping the replica equipment problem goes away, the more harm that will be done, because eventually the replica equipment will become un-policeable and the ILCA will be forced to permit the use of replica equipment (it’s already happening at club level), thus creating a “optimum boat” or limited development class. The ILCA and builders need to address issues of quality with components, primarily sails and the pricing of all the equipment.

/ramble
 
Again, I want to reiterate that my post above was written in sarcasm, as a response to powergroove's: "nor will I pay class dues to line the pockets of these scammers."

In no such way was it ever intended to be disrespectful towards Tracy, whom, although I've never met personally, have heard nothing but excellent things about regarding the Laser Class and its advancement/development.

Again, it was simply a sarcastic response stemming from the post in which powergroove (in my opinion, less than intelligently) called everyone scammers. Eric_R followed with his post, then I followed with the post in question.

Apologies for the confusion.
 
Was that an apology or sarcasm?

It was clearly an apology. Yes, I know you are trying to be funny, Fred, but shut up.

Yes, Kratos, I've read the posts, albeit hurriedly, but as I've explained before, it's sometimes difficult to get nuances across in writing. And I wanted to make sure, because Tracy is a great guy, and I count him as a friend. Thank you for your satisfactory explanation.
 
The strength of the class comes from it being a strict one design class with tight controls on the manufacturers.


/ramble

But it also comes with not allowing the price to get to high. One of the problems with a "strict O/D class" is a $4.00 part will cost you $18.00 to buy because its a approved part.

If you want the class to grow you have to control the cost.
 
If you want the class to grow you have to control the cost.

I agree and I think this is where the class is failing at the moment. I was shocked to see such a low turn-out for the UK Nationals (standard rig) this year compared to other classes. Maybe the builders/class is resting on its success, feeling it has a God gven right to large numbers of people paying OTT for parts, or maybe they are just extracting as much as they can out of the class whilst allowing it to decline as they have alternatives. Whatever the reason they do not seem to be helping us, those who spend our time in these little boats.

(and when I say "they" I probably mean more than one group of people making money from those who sail Lasers).

Ian
 
I agree and I think this is where the class is failing at the moment. I was shocked to see such a low turn-out for the UK Nationals (standard rig) this year compared to other classes. Maybe the builders/class is resting on its success, feeling it has a God gven right to large numbers of people paying OTT for parts, or maybe they are just extracting as much as they can out of the class whilst allowing it to decline as they have alternatives. Whatever the reason they do not seem to be helping us, those who spend our time in these little boats.

(and when I say "they" I probably mean more than one group of people making money from those who sail Lasers).

Ian

Do not underestimate the effect of "club sailors" not wanting to compete against the pros, squad members and wannabes, with their coaches, support boats etc is having on the number of competitors.
 
Great ideas Alan, look at things every 4 years.
IMHO
Single manufacturer one design is a beast thats needs to be controlled before a monopoly forms and prices out all competitors(illegal in the US BTW).
My personal opinion is that is what Laser has done, and the class has supported it. Im pretty much a newbie in the Laser, and I have been a paying of the class, with all Laser legal equipment, but I dont like what the class has done. Im all for one design, but SMOD is the problem.
I would like to be out racing my laser with legal stuff, but for someone who has 3 kids and a budget, the sail is just out of my reach this year, The intensity sail was not. SO my post about not payng dues or racing lasers is because I do not want to labeled a cheat, or a rules beater, this is strictly a finacial situation for me. I will have a legal sail next year, and will again join the class, but my hope is that things will change so the prices will drop before then.
 
I agree and I think this is where the class is failing at the moment. I was shocked to see such a low turn-out for the UK Nationals (standard rig) this year compared to other classes. Maybe the builders/class is resting on its success, feeling it has a God gven right to large numbers of people paying OTT for parts, or maybe they are just extracting as much as they can out of the class whilst allowing it to decline as they have alternatives. Whatever the reason they do not seem to be helping us, those who spend our time in these little boats.

(and when I say "they" I probably mean more than one group of people making money from those who sail Lasers).

Ian

This is interesting. If you speak to people who are high up in the class (UKLA and ILCA) they say they are tied by the builder. If you speak to the builder they say they are tied by the class. Now someone here is not telling the truth, perhaps they should all sit round a table and thrash it out once and for all. I appreciate this is difficult given how widespread people are with the Laser but the dividends for the vast majority of the class could be profound.

IMO the class is leaving itself open to the likes of a newcomer who uses the Laser philospohy but gets the pricing right.

Just my 2p as always.
 
This is interesting. If you speak to people who are high up in the class (UKLA and ILCA) they say they are tied by the builder. If you speak to the builder they say they are tied by the class. Now someone here is not telling the truth, perhaps they should all sit round a table and thrash it out once and for all. I appreciate this is difficult given how widespread people are with the Laser but the dividends for the vast majority of the class could be profound.

IMO the class is leaving itself open to the likes of a newcomer who uses the Laser philospohy but gets the pricing right.

Just my 2p as always.

You and Alan summed it up pretty nicely. My impression is that serious competition is already eating into the Laser market. I too believe class and manufacturer are hurting themselves with the low cost/low quality/high price - politics. Most Laser sailors would probably accept 10 or 20 percent plus for the legal sail or other pieces of equipment easily. But charging 100 percent more is really hurting the game.
 

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