Back Problems

I got done sailing in a light breeze yesterday and my back is so sore I can hardly sit down in a chair.

I figure I did it while roll tacking.

Is something wrong with my technique that is making my back hurt?
 
Laser sailing in general requires a certain level of flexibility and core fitness, without knowing how you stack up in those, it's pretty difficult to answer if it's techique or something else.
 
I have nothing specific for your original question. However, in general I hurt worse after sailing in light air than in heavy air. I attribute it to crouching down in the cockpit for hours on end.
 
Make sure you're not slouching.

It's the same as sitting at a computer for hours on end with poor posture: You will hurt.

Other than that, it's very hard to help you with the (lack of) information you've provided.

Structural?
Muscular?
Lumbar?
Thoracic?
One side?
 
Well I consider myself in pretty good shape. I am 19 years old and I don't think I should be having back issues. It feels like sore muscles. I think you are right about slouching.. I would have never noticed it. Maybe I just have to get used to using different muscles? It is a aching pain in my upper back.. can't even think about sailing without it hurting.
 
Well I consider myself in pretty good shape. I am 19 years old and I don't think I should be having back issues. It feels like sore muscles. I think you are right about slouching.. I would have never noticed it. Maybe I just have to get used to using different muscles? It is a aching pain in my upper back.. can't even think about sailing without it hurting.

Do you lift weights?

If so, maybe you're lifting in a fashion causing muscle imbalances?

You can consider yourself in pretty good shape all you want, but muscle imbalance is muscle imbalance.
 
I find that I pretty much always ache after a hard days sailing in heavy winds but rarely do I ache after a light wind day.

Perhaps you should consider doing a few stretches when you come off the water just to eek out any potential aches (that and make sure you stretch to warm up before you go out of course).

I do an all round gym program but with a focus on core stability (so lots of gym ball related stuff with free weights). It has made a huge difference, I do not get anywhere near as tired and can stay focused for longer that before.

That and make sure you stay warm, it is surprising how much a little cold and damp can make you ache after sailing!
 
I find that I pretty much always ache after a hard days sailing in heavy winds but rarely do I ache after a light wind day.

Perhaps you should consider doing a few stretches when you come off the water just to eek out any potential aches (that and make sure you stretch to warm up before you go out of course).

I do an all round gym program but with a focus on core stability (so lots of gym ball related stuff with free weights). It has made a huge difference, I do not get anywhere near as tired and can stay focused for longer that before.

That and make sure you stay warm, it is surprising how much a little cold and damp can make you ache after sailing!

I don't know about stretching before going out. I might stretch after doing my warm up on the water, but stretching when your muscles are cold/unworked isn't great/effective. Definitely stretch after sailing.

I kind of lol at "gym ball stuff". Why? Why not just do some heavy core work? Heavy overhead presses, heavy deadlifts, heavy squats, weighted sit ups, side bends? The first three alone will make your core incredibly strong, along with your lower back, without even adding in any other core work at all. I can attest to this.

Someone has made a killing off of gym balls...
 
I don't know about stretching before going out. I might stretch after doing my warm up on the water, but stretching when your muscles are cold/unworked isn't great/effective. Definitely stretch after sailing.

I kind of lol at "gym ball stuff". Why? Why not just do some heavy core work? Heavy overhead presses, heavy deadlifts, heavy squats, weighted sit ups, side bends? The first three alone will make your core incredibly strong, along with your lower back, without even adding in any other core work at all. I can attest to this.

Someone has made a killing off of gym balls...

Pressing heavy weights does not have the same effect as having to balance on a gym ball when doing other ab work. One of the problems I have is that my stomach muscles are not strong enough so my lower back is being worked harder to try and compansate for it. When exercising on the gym ball you really can feel the muscles being worked (even when using no additional weights).

For example on the mat I can easily do 40+ obliques (20 each side). On the ball I can barely manage half that without needing a break. When I started on the ball I could barely do more than 14.

Ab curls (crunches whatever you want to call them). I could do these pretty much all day if on the mat. On the ball I could barely manage 20 without need to stop.

Now things are different. and i cannot see how pressing any amount of weight helps with the core muscles (stomach, lower back). The ball however has had noticable effects for me.
 
Pressing heavy weights does not have the same effect as having to balance on a gym ball when doing other ab work. One of the problems I have is that my stomach muscles are not strong enough so my lower back is being worked harder to try and compansate for it. When exercising on the gym ball you really can feel the muscles being worked (even when using no additional weights).

For example on the mat I can easily do 40+ obliques (20 each side). On the ball I can barely manage half that without needing a break. When I started on the ball I could barely do more than 14.

Ab curls (crunches whatever you want to call them). I could do these pretty much all day if on the mat. On the ball I could barely manage 20 without need to stop.

Now things are different. and i cannot see how pressing any amount of weight helps with the core muscles (stomach, lower back). The ball however has had noticable effects for me.

You didn't even look at the link I posted, did you?

There have been no studies linking training on unstable surfaces to athletic performance.

When you choose to do an exercise on a ball, you have to use less weight, thereby reducing strength gains.

Instead of doing body weight oblique crunches for such high reps, why not try side bends with a dumbbell for 3 sets of 12-15. Let me know how your obliques feel after those.

Same with sit-ups. Just do decline sit-ups, holding a weight/plate.

Pressing will strengthen your core. This is fact. Please don't try and say otherwise. Same as overhead squats. Overhead press will work your abdominals, obliques, costal muscles, and back, which all stabilize the spine. If you've never done an overhead press, don't knock it, especially in an incorrect manner.

If you're looking for a movement that incorporates almost your entire body, try deadlifting. Involves your lower back to a large extent, as well as your core.

Do you squat?

What do your current gym routine look like?
 
You didn't even look at the link I posted, did you?

There have been no studies linking training on unstable surfaces to athletic performance.

When you choose to do an exercise on a ball, you have to use less weight, thereby reducing strength gains.

Instead of doing body weight oblique crunches for such high reps, why not try side bends with a dumbbell for 3 sets of 12-15. Let me know how your obliques feel after those.

Same with sit-ups. Just do decline sit-ups, holding a weight/plate.

Pressing will strengthen your core. This is fact. Please don't try and say otherwise. Same as overhead squats. Overhead press will work your abdominals, obliques, costal muscles, and back, which all stabilize the spine. If you've never done an overhead press, don't knock it, especially in an incorrect manner.

If you're looking for a movement that incorporates almost your entire body, try deadlifting. Involves your lower back to a large extent, as well as your core.

Do you squat?

What do your current gym routine look like?

You seriously need to chill out man!

The link you posted was just that a link with no explaination of what it was. Call me suspicious but I don't go clicking on every seemingly random link that gets posted on a forum.

The fact is you have your belief I have mine. My regeime is working for me.

I do not need to build muscle mass I need to tone and optimise what muscle I have. I am already too heavy for the Laser on the water I sail on (hence why I also have an 8.1) so I have to draw the line between gaining muscle mass (I have very little body fat to convert) and toning up what I have.

That may sound like a contradiction but the program I have is tailored for me by my personal trainer who spent a lot of time examining the muscle groups that are in use specifically in relation to sailing.

I also firmly believe that if you want to sail to get fit then that's fine, you need to accept that you are going to pay for it by aching for a day or so afterwards. To improve your racing you need to get fit to sail.

The Laser is one of the most physical boats out there to sail, a lot of it is sheer brute force to keep the thing driving effectively (i.e. you sailing the boat not the boat sailing you).
 
I've deleted Shatty007's link because it appears to me to just carry the discussion to another (less civil) forum. Shatty, if you've got a link to some scientific evidence, you are welcome to post it.
 
You seriously need to chill out man!

The link you posted was just that a link with no explaination of what it was. Call me suspicious but I don't go clicking on every seemingly random link that gets posted on a forum.

The fact is you have your belief I have mine. My regeime is working for me.

I do not need to build muscle mass I need to tone and optimise what muscle I have. I am already too heavy for the Laser on the water I sail on (hence why I also have an 8.1) so I have to draw the line between gaining muscle mass (I have very little body fat to convert) and toning up what I have.

That may sound like a contradiction but the program I have is tailored for me by my personal trainer who spent a lot of time examining the muscle groups that are in use specifically in relation to sailing.

I also firmly believe that if you want to sail to get fit then that's fine, you need to accept that you are going to pay for it by aching for a day or so afterwards. To improve your racing you need to get fit to sail.

The Laser is one of the most physical boats out there to sail, a lot of it is sheer brute force to keep the thing driving effectively (i.e. you sailing the boat not the boat sailing you).

Sorry. I don't know how I;'m coming across over teh internets, but I'm not angry or anything.

As for your stuff working for you: Some people succeed in spite of their methods, rather than because of them

You actually "optimise" what muscle you have by lifting heavy. You can lift heavy and not gain weight. Gaining weight all depends on your calories in vs. calories out. Getting stronger has to do with your central nervous system and neural efficiency. Lifting heavy is actually the easiest way to increase neural efficiency (get stronger), while not putting on weight. Low reps induce the least amount of hypertrophy.

I'll try and find a good chart showing the rep ranges vs. their effects.

Edit: Here:

repetitioncontinuum.jpg


Until you've been lifting for a while, you can actually lose weight and get stronger via increasing neural efficiency.

"Very little body fat to convert." Fat does not convert to muscle. You lose fat by burning more calories than you intake.

It's possible to effectively train your whole body with very few movements. I'm interested to know what your program looks like. Post it if you would?

I wouldn't advocate sailing to get fit, either. I realise the Laser is a physical boat, having sailed one a couple times myself (Laser 1, Standard Rig), which is why I would advocate being strong as hell to get the best out of yourself.

Just my little story:

I worked out a lot, and had been doing so for a while. I fractured 3 vertebrae in my T-spine and 3 in my C-spine in a car accident in July of '07. Up to that point, I was an athletic guy, struggling to gain weight and get bigger. I only ever made it to around 183 pounds. Well, just this past February, I decided it was time to hit the gym again. I was very weak and it was hard getting back into lifting. Maybe weighed around 175 lbs. Well, I used totally different methods. Simpler ones. Ones that were tried, tested and true. By June, I was about 195 lbs. Stronger than ever. Good eating and proper lifting had taken 4.5-5 months to do (even after the injuries) what I couldn't do in the few years before.


I've deleted Shatty007's link because it appears to me to just carry the discussion to another (less civil) forum. Shatty, if you've got a link to some scientific evidence, you are welcome to post it.

It was just a link to a thread discussing the issue of stability balls and training on unstable surfaces.

Less civil? Sure it's a bit looser than the ol' sailing chaps over here, but they know a touch (just a touch) about all aspects of training and being strong. I know I can't squat 615 lbs for depth, pull 636 lbs off the ground, bench 405 or put 365 over my head.

Here's one. Still gives a greenlight to some upper body exercises, but refutes their effectiveness for anything to do with the lower body (save rehab):

http://blogs.experiencelifemag.com/survival-of-the-fittest/2008/05/eric-cressey-is-unbalanced.html

Eric Cressey also has/was part of an actual scientific study, if you'd like to attempt to read your way through that, instead.

If you're looking to get stronger, you don't use a ball because, due to the unstable surface, you will have to use less weight, diminishing the overload stresses/principal.
 
Hi Shatty,

Perhaps I was a little hasty earlier, please accept my apologies 9I am feeling a bit ill today so I am as snappy as a short tempered dog.

I have 3 gym programs depending on how much time I have (and the time of the year as over the winter I play hockey twice a week which gives me a good cardio workout).

The machine at my local gym are Precor machine, the names given are the one on them!

Program 1 (full program)

10 Mins on the treadmill (warmup, no running but increasing the incline bu 1% each minute after 2 minutes walking at 4.7 mph)

Pec Deck 2 x 15 reps @ 40kg
Lat Pull Down 2 x 15 @ 35kg
Upper Back 2 x 15 @ 40kg

10 mins on the stepper/strider alternating 2 mins stepping, 2 mins striding resistance 7

Leg press 2 x 15 @ 95kg
Seated leg curl 2 x 15 @ 45kg
Step 15 x 2 (1 legs together, 1 legs apart, for balance)

8 mins on the cross trainer crossramp 11, resistance 13

Back extension machine 2 x 20 @ 40kg

floor/ball exercises

full plank 3 x 15 seconds
Ball 2 x 20 ab curls
Ball 1 x 20 (each side) obliques
Floor 1 x 25 reverse curls
Ball 1 x 25 back extensions
Ball 3 x 10 bicep curls @ 10kg (balancing once on each foot then one set with both feet on the ground)
Ball 3 x 10 tricep dips

Recumbant cycle 8 mins resistance 9

Cool down stretches

Take about 1 hour 40-1hr 45 for this program

Short program 1 (Cardio)

Treadmill 6 Mins flat fast walk (5mph)
Concept 2 rower 6 mins resistance 7 (generaly around 1600-1700 meters)
Stepper Strider 6 mins stepping resistance 7
Stepper Strider 6 mins striding resistatnce 7
Cross trainer 6 mins on a varied program (generally hillclimb)

Back extension machine 2 x 20 @ 40kg

Floor/ball work

full plank 3 x 15 seconds
Ball 2 x 20 ab curls
Ball 1 x 20 (each side) obliques
Floor 1 x 25 reverse curls
Ball 1 x 25 back extensions

Cool down exercises

Generally around 50-60 minutes

Short program 2 (weights)

Treadmill 6 minutes flat fast walk (5mph)

Pec Deck 2 x 15 reps @ 40kg
Lat Pull Down 2 x 15 @ 35kg
Upper Back 2 x 15 @ 40kg
Leg press 2 x 15 @ 95kg
Seated leg curl 2 x 15 @ 45kg
Back extension machine 2 x 20 @ 40kg

floor/ball exercises

full plank 3 x 15 seconds
Ball 2 x 20 ab curls
Ball 1 x 20 (each side) obliques
Floor 1 x 25 reverse curls
Ball 1 x 25 back extensions
Ball 3 x 10 bicep curls @ 10kg (balancing once on each foot then one set with both feet on the ground)
Ball 3 x 10 tricep dips

Cool down stretches

Generally around 45 minutes. I am going to introduce a bit more cardio in to this one as I feel like I am not in the zone towards the end of it (ie heart rate has dropped too far).

The 2 short prgorams get alternated and I generally go 2-3 times a week depending on work.
 
Alright. I'll show you what I do in the gym currently:

Monday:

Deadlift - 5x5
Bent over row (barbell) - 3x5/5x5 (Depending on how I feel after the deads)
Chin ups - 3xfailure/5xfailure (Again, depending)

Wednesday:

Overhead press - 5x5 (Usually a push press with some leg drive)
Facepulls - 5x5
Pull ups - 3xfailure/5xfailure

Friday:

Squats - 5x5 (Below parallel)
Romanian dedlift - 3x5/5x5 (Depends on squats)
Calf raises - 3x20 (Don't know why I do these, but someone very strong recommended them for someone of my (limited) lifting experience, so I toss them in.
Side Bends - 3x15 per side

That's my routine. My whole routine. 10/11 movements. Usually takes about an hour. Now, this is a routine designed purely for strength and some size (hence the reps of 5) and I do little cardio. If I wanted to add cardio, I'd add in some HIIT (high intensity interval training) on my days off. (Sprints, etc.)

Some people also like barbell complexes.

------------

I see you have a lot of machine exercises in your program. Why not free weights, as an alternative.

Also, say, if strength was a goal, you would want to do your strength training before your cardio. If you're blasting yourself before you hit the weights, are you leaving anything left in the tank?

With the leg press and leg curls, why not just kill 2 birds with one stone and squat? Squats are great for total body strength. Legs, back, etc.

Think movements, not isolation exercises. You want to train the movement, not the/a single muscle.

Also, you listed weights beside the exercises. Are those the most recent, or do you do the same every week? You should try to progress each week, adding either weight or reps.

Again, I am someone with no professional training/certifications.

------

Always remember, a personal trainer is a business man, who has to sell himself to put a roof over his head and food on the table. Are they all bad? Of course not. Are they all good? Same applies.
 
EddieDingle;

What I’ve done to improve my comfort and endurance in a Laser may be of use to you.

First of all, I’m almost 65 years old - - everything hurts all the time.:) I try to minimize this and have found a few techniques that have helped me a lot when sailing the Laser. I am fairly new to Laser sailing and found out right away that hiking required some serious trunk and leg strength (among other things).

I made a hiking bench from an old flat-topped sawhorse that I had around. To this, I attached a plywood top of the same width and edge radii of the deck of a Laser. I attached hiking straps to the legs of a heavy machine I have. The “bench” is located relative to the hiking strap so as simulate the distances and angles of hiking on a Laser. I position a footstool under where my upper back would be when hiked-out fully. This is a safety net in case I feel something give.

I put on my hiking pads and do sit-ups. Also, I have a rope loop that I can use as a “helper” by pulling with my arms if I need to. I do about 12 or so sit-ups and then do that many arm pull-ups using only the rope. I rest a little and then repeat maybe two more times, depending on how I feel. If I feel any pain, I stop. At my age, I can’t afford to damage something.

These exercises seem to closely match what I’m experiencing while actually sailing and hiking out. I’m purposely trying to mimic the motions and intensity of sailing while using my bench. I now find that I can hike much more comfortably and for a much longer time without pain either during or afterwards.

Of course, when the wind is light, hiking is not an issue. I get sore, I get stiff, and my back hurts from crouching too much when going downwind or reaching in light winds. The lighter the winds, the worse it is. I’ve found that standing up occasionally seems to get the kinks out, restores the circulation in my legs (especially when wearing a wetsuit and hiking pads), and gives my back a much-needed rest. Also, you can look around really well from a standing position and get a good “situational awareness”. Another thing I do when I have time during a sailing session is to lay the boat on its side and go for a little swim. This takes the weight off my joints, stretches me out, and just feels good. As Mae West once said, “I feel good, and there’s no law against feeling good”.
 
Hi Eddie I think that you have pulled a back muscle & have a muscle spasm in your back. Have you had a weakness here before? I think that twisting doesn't help.
I have had several such episodes & the other weekend needed to spend 60 hrs in bed & every time I moved it felt like "labour pains" (although I am a bloke). Unfortunately I do have a weakness in my back & it intermittently recurs. I find ibobrufen & either panadol or panadeine best ,although last time I needed valium& codeine as well (not as good as it sounds).
Anyhow it takes about a week to come right!
Also, I'm afraid that I was doing free squats at the gym, with a weight belt, that caused this recent episode.I was doing low reps/high weights ie 90 kg 6 reps of 6 & I am 74 kg & 48 yr old. So as a result I won't be doing free squats again & have reduced all my other weights.
There's no point in getting injured.
Anyway I'm sure you will be coming right by now.
Good luck.
cheers Hamish A NZ radial sailor
 
Hi Eddie I think that you have pulled a back muscle & have a muscle spasm in your back. Have you had a weakness here before? I think that twisting doesn't help.
I have had several such episodes & the other weekend needed to spend 60 hrs in bed & every time I moved it felt like "labour pains" (although I am a bloke). Unfortunately I do have a weakness in my back & it intermittently recurs. I find ibobrufen & either panadol or panadeine best ,although last time I needed valium& codeine as well (not as good as it sounds).
Anyhow it takes about a week to come right!
Also, I'm afraid that I was doing free squats at the gym, with a weight belt, that caused this recent episode.I was doing low reps/high weights ie 90 kg 6 reps of 6 & I am 74 kg & 48 yr old. So as a result I won't be doing free squats again & have reduced all my other weights.
There's no point in getting injured.
Anyway I'm sure you will be coming right by now.
Good luck.
cheers Hamish A NZ radial sailor

You got hurt doing squats for one of three reasons:

1) You used too much weight.
2) You form was poor.
3) 2 being a result of 1.

When you say you were doing squats with a "weight belt" I'm assuming you mean a lifting belt, right? What was your belt placement?

I wouldn't give up on squats, but I'd reduce the weight and figure out proper form. If you have existing aches and pains, of course putting a loaded bar across your back will exaggerate/aggravate them.

Check out SquatRX and mark Rippetoe's squat instruction video on YouTube.
 
Always remember, a personal trainer is a business man, who has to sell himself to put a roof over his head and food on the table. Are they all bad? Of course not. Are they all good? Same applies.

At the gym I go to it is not run as a commercial enterprise it is run by our local council. So while it is there to make some money the primary service is for the community. The PT who I see is very nice and her time is included with the montly subscription so she has noting to gain by wasting mine and her time.

Were I at a commercial gym I would be more wary.
 
Alright. I'll show you what I do in the gym currently:


------------

I see you have a lot of machine exercises in your program. Why not free weights, as an alternative.

Also, say, if strength was a goal, you would want to do your strength training before your cardio. If you're blasting yourself before you hit the weights, are you leaving anything left in the tank?

With the leg press and leg curls, why not just kill 2 birds with one stone and squat? Squats are great for total body strength. Legs, back, etc.

Think movements, not isolation exercises. You want to train the movement, not the/a single muscle.

Also, you listed weights beside the exercises. Are those the most recent, or do you do the same every week? You should try to progress each week, adding either weight or reps.

Again, I am someone with no professional training/certifications.

------

The machines are used because they more effectively isolate the muscle groups that are being worked whereas using a free-weight exercise would not do this as effectively.

The gym ball work is to increase abs strength and help with core-stability and balance (you really can feel your core working when balancing on the ball). It has made a big diffference for me so i am a happy man. I just need to keep the motivation up!
 
How much experiance on a laser have you got Shatty007??

"I wouldn't advocate sailing to get fit, either. I realise the Laser is a physical boat, having sailed one a couple times myself (Laser 1, Standard Rig), which is why I would advocate being strong as hell to get the best out of yourself."
 
every time I moved it felt like "labour pains" (although I am a bloke).

I can attest that back pain can be worse than labor pains. Labor is more like intestinal flu. Back pain is a knife. Labor ends. Back pain goes on and on. Yikes! I'm going to go stretch now.
 
Thanks everyone, these are all really great tips. It is safe to say the Laser is the most physically involved boat I have ever sailed on. I will take a few days off sailing to get healthy.
 
At the gym I go to it is not run as a commercial enterprise it is run by our local council. So while it is there to make some money the primary service is for the community. The PT who I see is very nice and her time is included with the montly subscription so she has noting to gain by wasting mine and her time.

Were I at a commercial gym I would be more wary.

Alright. I'm just saying, you know?

The machines are used because they more effectively isolate the muscle groups that are being worked whereas using a free-weight exercise would not do this as effectively.

The gym ball work is to increase abs strength and help with core-stability and balance (you really can feel your core working when balancing on the ball). It has made a big diffference for me so i am a happy man. I just need to keep the motivation up!

But see, it's not more effective to isolate a muscle, because that's not how it works in real life? Get me? That's why I'm advocating training movements.

You don't really want to isolate anything.

Free weight, compound movements will give you balanced training, more comparable to something you might encounter in every day life.

How often do you bend over and pick something up? Deadlift.
How often do you squat down for a multitude of reasons? Squat.
How often do you lift/raise something over your head? Overhead press.


How much experiance on a laser have you got Shatty007??

"I wouldn't advocate sailing to get fit, either. I realise the Laser is a physical boat, having sailed one a couple times myself (Laser 1, Standard Rig), which is why I would advocate being strong as hell to get the best out of yourself."

About 5/6 years racing at high level. Not much international (Europe, etc.) experience, but NA, yes.

Selected to my province's sailing team.

Pretty much life consuming for that time.

Nothing spectacular, or even worth mentioning, really, but I've been around a little.

Internet sarcasm doesn't come across well.
 
I strongly suggest that people don't listen to exercise advice off the internet, same with medical advice. A lot of gym instructors & personal trainers at least in Australia have only completed a short 2-4 week course, whilst there are good ones out their, it does pay to look at their qualification and also listen to what your body is saying as it's easy to do lots of damage.

If anyone one wants to read a comprehensive book on fitness and training specific to sailing, Michael Blackburn's book "Sail Fitter" is very good and he has a PhD in Sports Science.

Personally, if I was going to the gym, I'd rather work muscles in isolated groups where it's easier to do an exercise properly, doing general weights training can lead to doing the exercise incorrectly and doing more harm than good. I know when I was recovering from an ACL reconstruction, the fitness program was for several months based on isolated groups.

However, most of my fitness training is either on the boat, cycling or climbing (mostly indoor but occassionally outdoor). The cycling works the bottom half well and the climbing works the upper half well.
 
I strongly suggest that people don't listen to exercise advice off the internet, same with medical advice. A lot of gym instructors & personal trainers at least in Australia have only completed a short 2-4 week course, whilst there are good ones out their, it does pay to look at their qualification and also listen to what your body is saying as it's easy to do lots of damage.

If anyone one wants to read a comprehensive book on fitness and training specific to sailing, Michael Blackburn's book "Sail Fitter" is very good and he has a PhD in Sports Science.

Personally, if I was going to the gym, I'd rather work muscles in isolated groups where it's easier to do an exercise properly, doing general weights training can lead to doing the exercise incorrectly and doing more harm than good. I know when I was recovering from an ACL reconstruction, the fitness program was for several months based on isolated groups.

However, most of my fitness training is either on the boat, cycling or climbing (mostly indoor but occassionally outdoor). The cycling works the bottom half well and the climbing works the upper half well.

Why not? I personally couldn't agree with you more.

I know many, many people benefiting from it. I'm one of them.

Are you saying not to heed the words of trainers who put their videos on YouTube? Mark Rippetoe, Dave Tate, Jim Wendler, the SquatRX series.

Mark Rippetoe has one of the most highly regarded basic, beginner training books, ever: "Starting Strength"

You're missing the point...%100. Compound movements are not any harder to perform than isolation exercises. For athletic performance, compound exercises far exceed compound exercises. I'm sorry, this is fact. What carry over do curls have for anything athletic?

A nice analogy about curls: "Curls are like mustard: If want to put some mustard on a sandwich, fine, but if you want to eat a bowl of mustard, you're an idiot."

I really hate seeing kids at the gym who want to be strong, but end up getting their info and routines from stupid muscle magazines. I always want to tell them: "Doing 5 types of curls will not make you strong," but that's not my place.

Why are isolation exercises easier to perform than compound lifts? How many times have you squatted, pressed a barbell over your head or deadlifted? I learned everything by myself, by watching videos off YouTube and reading.

I don't even understand what you mean by "doing general weights training". What does that even mean? You know what machines do? Give one, only one, forced range of motion. They can also create and exaggerate muscle imbalances.

Just because you did that for your ACL, does that make it correct?

Cycling does not replace strength training. It's fine for conditioning, but don't think it replaces strength training.

Anyway, I'm done discussing how to get strong on here. It's like beating your head against a brick wall, and some people just refuse to listen or invest a little bit of time to learn properly.

Lifting heavy using compound movements makes you: Stronger, faster, more flexible.

Doing isolation exercises makes you: ?????????????

Keep lifting how you are, maybe seeing results, maybe not. Like I said, some people succeed in spite of their training, rather than because of it.

Sorry I tried to help. It's tough when people are stuck in a rut of misconception and misinformation.
 
Dunno if it’s sarcasm Shatty,
Just think you should relax on pushing your opinion on everyone else. A forum is here for open friendly discussion.
You need to chill a bit bro...

This is intended in the nicest way possible, and am sure you great at stuff.

I truly respect and read your opinion on stuff and think you a cool dude.
 
Dunno if it’s sarcasm Shatty,
Just think you should relax on pushing your opinion on everyone else. A forum is here for open friendly discussion.
You need to chill a bit bro...

This is intended in the nicest way possible, and am sure you great at stuff.

I truly respect and read your opinion on stuff and think you a cool dude.

I know a forum is here for discussion, but when I hear about people lifting, I want to do what I can to make sure they're doing the best they can, taking the shortest, yet most effective path to their eventual goals.

Jeffers said he wants to get stronger/more fit, but not gain weight, yet he is doing sets of 15, which are conducive to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

There are many opinions, but some facts, as well. There are better ways to lifts and worse ways to lift.

I don't claim to be great at anything.
 
Over.

Shatty, those people you mention might be big on the web, but I've never heard of them. And I'd trust there advice as much as any exercise program put out by some celebrity. IMO relevant degree or higher qualifications from recognized colleges/universities count.
 
Over.

Shatty, those people you mention might be big on the web, but I've never heard of them. And I'd trust there advice as much as any exercise program put out by some celebrity. IMO relevant degree or higher qualifications from recognized colleges/universities count.

"Big on the web"?

Come on man!!!! That did make me mad. I won't curse, because then my post will just get deleted.

"Big on the web, but I've never heard of them".

They must be nobodies then, Alan. You're right. You shouldn't trust them at all. No correct literature gets passed over the web, or in video tutorials, done by the people themselves. They must use robotic fakes.

I explained to you Mark Rippetoe's credentials. All these guys have certs/qualifications. Not that a piece of paper in your hand makes you automatically better at something. Surely you're not that naive?

You definitely shouldn't take five seconds to at least Google them before saying something as completely unnecessary what you have said. That wouldn't make sense at all.

"Big on the web". I cannot get over that.

These Tom Slingsby and Paul Goodison guys might be big on the web, but I've never heard of them. I'd trust their sailing advice as much as I'd trust sailing advice put out by some celebrity. If they don't have a college degree or some piece of paper certification in their hand deeming them able to give me advice, they're worthless to me.

Does that sound as utterly stupid to you as it does to me?
 
"Big on the web"?

Come on man!!!! That did make me mad. I won't curse, because then my post will just get deleted.

"Big on the web, but I've never heard of them".

They must be nobodies then, Alan. You're right. You shouldn't trust them at all. No correct literature gets passed over the web, or in video tutorials, done by the people themselves. They must use robotic fakes.

I explained to you Mark Rippetoe's credentials. All these guys have certs/qualifications. Not that a piece of paper in your hand makes you automatically better at something. Surely you're not that naive?

You definitely shouldn't take five seconds to at least Google them before saying something as completely unnecessary what you have said. That wouldn't make sense at all.

"Big on the web". I cannot get over that.

These Tom Slingsby and Paul Goodison guys might be big on the web, but I've never heard of them. I'd trust their sailing advice as much as I'd trust sailing advice put out by some celebrity. If they don't have a college degree or some piece of paper certification in their hand deeming them able to give me advice, they're worthless to me.

Does that sound as utterly stupid to you as it does to me?

Pamela Anderson does a lot of fitness stuff and she is very well known - training DVDs for sale in supermarkets, etc. yet despite this I would not follow her training advice. Google her and you find loads of stuff - but that alone does not convince me to follow her advice.

One aspect with the comparison between taking sailing advice from unknown sources and training/fitness advice is that bad sailing advice may make you slower and results worse (upsetting maybe but not too serious). Bad training advice will potentially do you injury and affect your health badly.

I am no expert but have always thought that training advice would be different for different people. Somebody who is clinically obese would probably undertake a different plan from an Olympic athlete trying to perfect specific aspects. Get the obese person to do the Olympians training plan as it might not do him/her a lot of good. Maybe even more important when somebody has something troubling them (e.g. "bad knee" or "bad back") as these symptoms could be due to many different causes. This can maybe be a problem with internet/remote advice - it is "generic". Also, on fora there are quite a few people who like to appear knowledgeable whose actual knowledge is based only on what the have read on the internet - thus they are only repeating what other sources of unknown reliability have maybe repeated from other sources of unknown reliability ..... Given the personal tailored professional advice is easy to obtain (free or at very low cost) locally for most people I would always go with that. Of course internet based information can have uses (e.g. 2nd opinions to confirm what a professional has advised YOU) but I would not use it as a main source for a training plan.

Then you come down to money. Again I have no idea about internet training advice but in some areas you get a "personality" putting their name to something in return for payment. Some people might check they are happy with what is being presented in their name, others might just be glad on the money and leave it at that. Thus superfit trainer Mr. X might have spent years writing his web site to hand out all his secrets for free - or some business person might have seen a gap/potential, written any old rubbish and paid Mr. X for use of his name. Whilst some will feel they have their reputation to maintain, others might not (or might delegate, etc.). Who knows if/how much this happens. And reading a web site does not reveal much. Basing your health/fitness on such unattributable info when there are better alternatives might seem unnecessary.

(Just my take on internet reliability - has uses but also needs caution).
Ian
 
Laser sailing in general requires a certain level of flexibility and core fitness, without knowing how you stack up in those, it's pretty difficult to answer if it's techique or something else.

You want to laugh?

Okay, here is it:

Yesterday I was alone at the club. I was going to prepare the club Lasers for our local racing event in a couple of weeks.
"Stupid LooserLu", not age 19 but age 46, lifted alone a hull of a Laser....

Evenings, already at home, I got a "specific answer" of my back: a medium lumbago... huhu

Cheers
LoserLu
 
Mr. T kept fit just by pitying fools.

It's probably no consolation, Shatty, but I've started using your training advice in my home gym. It hasn't hurt me yet. I've been doing the same work out for years to be strong enough to climb back into my Laser, so it was definitely time for a change. At my age, any gains will be slow. Keep y'all posted on that, especially if I start looking like Mr. T.
 

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