Big babies in Radials

RobKoci

New Member
I heard a rumor that there are guys well over 180lbs that plan to sail the Radial rig at the Masters in Halifax. Doesn't that smack of unsportsmanlike behaviour? I mean, come on, they have an alternative. If they can't handle the Full Rig when they weigh above 180lbs, maybe they shouldn't be sailing at the Worlds.

Comments? What do you think?
 
I would think it would be to their advantage to sail a full rig rather than have their weight slow them down compared to lighter sailors in the radial class. If they want to sail radial I don't see a problem with it though, as I see it they have the disadvantage anyways
 
The advantage of weight in strong winds far outweighs the advantage of the lack of it in light winds. Halifax will be windy. There is no way they would be at a disadvantage in Radial with the extra weight. Not a chance.
 
And what do you call the lightweight radial sailors who hop into the full rig at events when they are sailed in light air venues ? Little Babies ?

or maybe this is just payback for the NA masters events where the lighter guys are allowed to switch rigs during the event to suit their weight, while the big dogs look around and mutter to themselves while stuck with just a single rig to use. :mad:

In the end, I believe the cream is going to rise to the top, regardless if it's heavy cream or light cream.
 
Totally agree with 49208 that this is a non-issue. Go sail and have fun!

PS: Predictions are unreliable....
 
Totally agree with 49208 that this is a non-issue. Go sail and have fun!

If it is such a non issue, why was the Radial developed in the first place? Exactly because weight is an issue in this boat. Smaller sailors couldn't compete in the Full Rigs, and the class realized it was unfair for them to have to try in the big rigs. What's the difference here?

The class has a tradition of trying to eliminate unfair advantage. That's why we have Masters divisions as well. Big guys sailing Radials is no different than young guys sailing in a Masters regatta. We know how physical the boat is, and try to make it fun for everyone to compete and have a chance to win at some level. And that's what the Radial is for. And when big guys sail the radial in big winds, they negate that effort.
 
Big guys in Radials

Is it fair that big guys sail Radials in major regattas? I asked this question in the General Sailing talk (more forcefully, and perhaps less diplomatically) but meant it for here.

I talked to Fred Ables at the NA at Buffalo Canoe Club about the World Radial in Aussie. He is a great sailor but his results didn't reflect that, so I asked him about the regatta. He said he did pretty good when you compared his result to those closer to his weight range. It seemed unfair that Fred had absolutely no chance to do better in the standing because the fleet was flooding with big guys that, honestly, have no business in the Radial, except to embarrass little guys in big winds. The winner of that regatta was Michael Leigh!! What's HE doing in a Radial??

The Radial was originally developed to avoid just such a situation. Shouldn't there be a weight restriction in the Radial fleet at major regattas?
 
If you look close enough at anything you will always find advantages and disadvantages. Take the age groups for Masters - a 35 yr old could be said to have a big advantage over a 44 year old, but for better or worse, they are in the same age group.

The Laser class has NEVER tried to break down the groups by weight. It's always been the individual sailors CHOICE to decide which rig to race with.

While the predictions for Halifax may be for heavy air, it's no guarantee, heck the weather in New England this summer has been so different this year from other years.

You've known the venue for quite some time, if you honestly believe that more weight is an advantage, did you take control what you have control of, ie increase your body weight ?
 
Weather predictions are just that. These big guys are taking a gamble.

Remember the recent Olympics? Only light winds were predicted for the venue (Qingdao).

1. The US Star team built a Star just for those conditions and in fact, they did well in the first light-wind race(s). Then the wind piped up and they sank to the bottom with respect to the results.

2. Two Tornado teams had special spinnakers designed for the supposedly light conditions. Were they ever wrong, and the results showed it.

PS:
Rob: you mentioned that this thread resulted from a rumor you heard. "Show me the data" my teachers used to tell me.
 
The Laser class has NEVER tried to break down the groups by weight. It's always been the individual sailors CHOICE to decide which rig to race with.

But it has also always made an effort to make fleets equitable (Radial rig, masters divisions). Why not weight restrictions? Because it's never been done? That's not an argument. If, when the Masters catagories were discussed, someone had said "let's not do Masters catagories because it's never been done before," would you have agreed to that?

While the predictions for Halifax may be for heavy air, it's no guarantee, heck the weather in New England this summer has been so different this year from other years.

You've known the venue for quite some time, if you honestly believe that more weight is an advantage, did you take control what you have control of, ie increase your body weight.

Who says I don't have control of this issue? I have a voice. I am a member of the fleet. I can have my say. Maybe by airing this issue, some of those who shouldn't be in the Radial fleet will realize it and go to the full rigs where they can compete on a level playing field.[/B]
 
Weather predictions are just that. These big guys are taking a gamble.

Remember the recent Olympics? Only light winds were predicted for the venue (Qingdao).

1. The US Star team built a Star just for those conditions and in fact, they did well in the first light-wind race(s). Then the wind piped up and they sank to the bottom with respect to the results.

2. Two Tornado teams had special spinnakers designed for the supposedly light conditions. Were they ever wrong, and the results showed it.

PS: As an aside, remember the Medal race in the 49er class? True mayhem in 20+ mph, but so much fun to watch.

I humbly submit, the advantage of weight in big wind far outstrips less weight in light winds. There is no comparison, in fact. It is unfair to try to link those issues together.
 
I humbly submit, the advantage of weight in big wind far outstrips less weight in light winds. There is no comparison, in fact. It is unfair to try to link those issues together.

OK, put some facts out on the table.

Someone you know - Mike Matan - Has lost weight, working hard to get down to 190 or less from approx 210 a few years ago. Why ? Because he realized the exact opposite of what you are theorizing. Instead of relying on weight to go fast upwind, he has learned technique and is more then happy to tradeoff a little bit of upwind gain for a bigger offwind gain and at the same time the lighter weight has brought his results up in lighter air.

Someone else you know - Marc Jacobi - struggles to keep his weight over 175, yet hangs in there upwind in a breeze and flys downwind. In lighter air, the 200+lb guys look like anchored objects around him.


You had another thread going where you mentioned Mike Leigh and Fred Abels. I know you did not compare them directly, and with no disrespect towards Fred, they are on different skill and physical levels.


Out of curiosity, what weight do you intend to sail at in Halifax, and what weight would you sail at if it were a light wind venue ?
 
I have no problem with you putting forward a suggestion for a future change to include weight classes although IMHO it's un-nec as I believe it's self-regulating.

I don't understand your stance against the "rumored guys well over 180lbs" IMHO, they have done nothing unsportsmanlike by entering the radial division. They are playing by the stated rules.. (and I think it will be interesting to see if they show up at the event still weighing well over 180lbs - me thinks they will be dieting down to get to 175-180 or even less)




I heard a rumor that there are guys well over 180lbs that plan to sail the Radial rig at the Masters in Halifax. Doesn't that smack of unsportsmanlike behaviour? I mean, come on, they have an alternative. If they can't handle the Full Rig when they weigh above 180lbs, maybe they shouldn't be sailing at the Worlds.

Comments? What do you think?
 
I have no problem with you putting forward a suggestion for a future change to include weight classes although IMHO it's un-nec as I believe it's self-regulating.

I don't understand your stance against the "rumored guys well over 180lbs" IMHO, they have done nothing unsportsmanlike by entering the radial division. They are playing by the stated rules.. (and I think it will be interesting to see if they show up at the event still weighing well over 180lbs - me thinks they will be dieting down to get to 175-180 or even less)

The "unsportsmanlike" clause is there exactly to deal with such "legal" behaviour. It is perfectly legal to do a lot of things, like yell "starboard" when you are on port, but that is not very sportsmanlike. If Sportsmanlike = Legal, there would be no need to have a "sportmanlike" rule. So, it is well within the logic of the rules for me to suggest that to sail a Radial when you are suited to a Full Rig by a large margin may constitute "unsportsmanlike" behaviour. It is a cynical attempt to win a regatta, not compete fairly.
 
Is it also unsportsmanlike that there are folks out there who can afford not to work and therefore train/sail as much as they like, or hire coaches ? Show up with a new sail ?


What weight do you plan on sailing the worlds ? And is that your normal race weight or have you added weight for this event ?

Can you give us a few real people that support your claim of "the advantage of weight in big wind far outstrips less weight in light winds. There is no comparison, in fact. It is unfair to try to link those issues together" ?
 
Re: Big guys in Radials

OK, put some facts out on the table.

Someone you know - Mike Matan - Has lost weight, working hard to get down to 190 or less from approx 210 a few years ago. Why ? Because he realized the exact opposite of what you are theorizing. Instead of relying on weight to go fast upwind, he has learned technique and is more then happy to tradeoff a little bit of upwind gain for a bigger offwind gain and at the same time the lighter weight has brought his results up in lighter air.

Someone else you know - Marc Jacobi - struggles to keep his weight over 175, yet hangs in there upwind in a breeze and flys downwind. In lighter air, the 200+lb guys look like anchored objects around him.


You had another thread going where you mentioned Mike Leigh and Fred Abels. I know you did not compare them directly, and with no disrespect towards Fred, they are on different skill and physical levels.


Out of curiosity, what weight do you intend to sail at in Halifax, and what weight would you sail at if it were a light wind venue ?

I think my point here is that there was never any inclination by the laser class towards "choice." That there has always been, by manipulation of the rules of the class, some effort to make the class competitive and fun for everyone. I don't think it is a stretch to say that if you put an upper weight limit on the Radial Fleet in Catagory 1 regattas and Masters events of say, 180lb, it makes the racing better.

I know first hand how big an advantage more weight is in a Radial. As soon as the wind blows above 15 knots, I have a huge advantage over someone in the 120-140 range. I know it's not a fair fight. I know those guys can't touch me, not because I am a better sailor, but because I am heavier.

You can't divide the fleets into smaller and smaller units to match up age and weight, I know that. But you can make this one distinction. And I think it would be very fair.
 
Is it also unsportsmanlike that there are folks out there who can afford not to work and therefore train/sail as much as they like, or hire coaches ? Show up with a new sail ?

This is a good point, but not the one up for discussion.


What weight do you plan on sailing the worlds ? And is that your normal race weight or have you added weight for this event ?

160lb. Normal weight.

Can you give us a few real people that support your claim of "the advantage of weight in big wind far outstrips less weight in light winds. There is no comparison, in fact. It is unfair to try to link those issues together" ?

I have a huge advantage with I race in the Radial against 140lb guys in big winds. I don't think anyone can say they don't see the advantage when the wind blows. It's too obvious to argue, frankly.
 
I have a huge advantage with I race in the Radial against 140lb guys in big winds. I don't think anyone can say they don't see the advantage when the wind blows. It's too obvious to argue, frankly.

It's not linear though and I would argue that there is an upper limit (and you know this limit drops quickly as the wind drops). Once you reach some "magical" number, additional weight is no longer advantageous around the total course.

Point out any winners in windy full rig events that are over 220.. How about 210 ? 200 ?

I'm not that familar with Radial results, but I think when Brad Funk dropped in for a Worlds event he was 170 down from his full rig weight ? Al Clark sailed has sailed radial events weighing ? (and IIRC the stink made about that wasn't his weight, but that he was "picking on juniors") Is there anyone that has won a major radial event weighing 190 ? 180 ?
 
Re: Big guys in Radials

I think my point here is that there was never any inclination by the laser class towards "choice." That there has always been, by manipulation of the rules of the class, some effort to make the class competitive and fun for everyone. I don't think it is a stretch to say that if you put an upper weight limit on the Radial Fleet in Catagory 1 regattas and Masters events of say, 180lb, it makes the racing better.

I'll buy that, if and only if there is a min weight of 165 for full rigs.
 
A weight limit might be fair and a good idea if weight was the major factor affecting performance, but it isn't. Yes it does have some impact, but so do fitness, age, skill, experience, equipment, training time, etc.

Compared with weight, fitness has a much greater impact on performance. In 20 knots in a radial, I'd much rather be a fit 165lb sailor than an unfit 185lb sailor - I'd have my money on the lighter guy every time. If I was the unfit 185lb sailor, I would really resent being told I should be sailing a standard rig that I knew would be too much work for me and would therefore lessen my enjoyment. Isn't the fun the main reason we all do this? Winning is nice, but if it was the only motivation, how many of us would still be sailing?

Sadly, I'm 220lb and unfit at the moment, so I'll just keep grumbling about those 200lb lightweights who keep beating me.
 
While a few extra pounds might help a competitor upwind, assuming you are in the competitive weight range for a regatta's average wind velocity, weight will be one of many factors that contribute to success. I agree with some of the other posts that fitness and technique are equally as important, if not more so.

The example of Mike Matan is fantastic. Mike took matters into his own hands and changed his weight. I remember reading about a Michael Blackburn doing a similar thing to gain weight. In the end, we all control our own weight and fitness level. If you are not up to par for the expected conditions, you have/had the opportunity to do something about it.

From what I have been told, there is documentation showing the average size of the full rig sailors since the Laser became an Olympic Class. My understanding is that it shows the average weight of the top sailors in the class has been dropping over the last 15 years. What does that tell us? Is this due to a decline in the average wind velocity at major events over this time period? Would the best full rig sailors today not be competitive in heavy air with those who sailed 15 years ago? I highly doubt either of those statements are even remotely true. It suggests to me that sailors are probably more fit on average and that sailors have concluded the downwind benefit of less weight results in greater net gain throughout the duration of a race. Over time, I suspect we will see a similar change in the radial.

Let's not forget that many sailors come to regattas like the Masters Worlds knowing they will not win. They are primarily there to relax, enjoy the atmosphere and spend time with friends on and off the water. That is a BIG part of these regattas. Does the class really want to tell the Average Joe that he must spend his vacation suffering in 25 knots of breeze in a Standard rig when he does not think he can handle the boat? I suspect Joe will go find another singlehanded class that actually wants him to participate.

As my friend 49208 said (and regularly demonstrates on the water), the cream is going to rise to the top, regardless if it's heavy cream or light cream.
 
WOW! This sounds like the discourse that occurs in the handicap racing fleet, people constantly pushing the rules, playing the rating game. Then you hear from people with one design keel boats (J24's or whatever) that one design is the way to go.....a level playing field, and this is correct. You cross the line first you win, no corrected times, all the boats are the same. Granted some one design classes have a maximum crew weight. So whats the big deal with big guys sailing smaller rig boats? The rules allow it. It's always a gamble, same as the keel boat racer who opts to be rated with a smaller headsail because he is banking on heavier airs for the duration of a race series. Often the complaining fails to address the real issue, and that is skill usually prevails. You might be a heavy weight sailing in heavy air, therefore at an advantage over your light weight counterpart, but if the heavy weight is tactically out to lunch he will have his ass kicked.
 
Hello all, here's my 10 cents on the matter,
I am a heavy (around 180 pounds) radial sailor, as a female sailor in the UK sailing radials is the only option if you want to compete against other girls. To put this into perspective at the recent U.K nationals approximately 1/4 of the helms in a 90 boat radial fleet were female whereas in the full rig there wasn't a lady single entry. As i am around 5ft 9 i simply cannot handle a full rig in moderately strong wind and I'm far from unfit. If there was to be an upper weight limit on radials i would be forced to sail an alternative class of boats or undergo a serious fitness regime to sail a full rig. Even then i would have no women to sail against. It should be down to the individual sailor to choose which rig to sail as even within a single race the wind could drop by 15 knots making those who's extra weight was advantageous upwind at the start of the race then end hindering them in the last upwind leg. Really weight doesn't play as much of a part in laser results than fitness, boat handling or racing tactics
 
Having just got back from a windy UK nationals weight is not the be all and end all of good speed in strong winds. I'm around 70kg at the moment and I was very happy racing in the 20knot winds we got most of the week (even the 35knot squall that came through briefly one day). Our UK national champion is not a big guy (Jon Emmett) but he has the technique and fitness to sail the boat well in breeze. There were several smaller people (mainly youths and juniors likely to be no heavier than 65kg) at the front of the fleet who will have been there through technique and putting the hiking effort in. There were also a lot of full rig sailors (around 80+kg) who downsized in the breeze - most of these were down the back of the fleet.

I've been a heavier radial sailor (95kg at my heaviest) and I can honestly say I'm more competitive now I am lighter.
 
Hello all, here's my 10 cents on the matter,
I am a heavy (around 180 pounds) radial sailor, as a female sailor in the UK sailing radials is the only option if you want to compete against other girls. To put this into perspective at the recent U.K nationals approximately 1/4 of the helms in a 90 boat radial fleet were female whereas in the full rig there wasn't a lady single entry. As i am around 5ft 9 i simply cannot handle a full rig in moderately strong wind and I'm far from unfit. If there was to be an upper weight limit on radials i would be forced to sail an alternative class of boats or undergo a serious fitness regime to sail a full rig. Even then i would have no women to sail against. It should be down to the individual sailor to choose which rig to sail as even within a single race the wind could drop by 15 knots making those who's extra weight was advantageous upwind at the start of the race then end hindering them in the last upwind leg. Really weight doesn't play as much of a part in laser results than fitness, boat handling or racing tactics

Thanks for your input. I happen to think that 180 would be an acceptable limit to the Radial, so you would certainly be able to continue to compete with other women.

Even if weight is not as big a factor, there is no doubt that it IS a factor. The problem for me is that the bigger guys in Radials (and I am now feeling sheepish for calling them "babies." My apologies) is that, at the Masters Worlds, they have a perfectly good alternative fleet in the big rigs for each of the age classes (except GGMs), yet insist on sailing in the rig that gives them an advantage (albeit small, perhaps. I still don't think it is that small) for no other reason than that they are heavier. In the absence of an alternative, sure, go ahead, sail a Radial. But there is an alternative. They should use it.
I will admit to a proprietary feeling about the Radial. At 160lb, I call it MY rig. I can sail it in anything and have fun. The big guys have a rig. It's a full rig and is a good fit for them. They should stick to it.
 
Are you also going to suggest height limits? Leverage makes a big difference too. Even when I was heavy enough for the full rig I was too short to make use of that weight. The short heavy guy and the tall light guy could both be quite happy in the same rig.

Weight limits in the radial are just not needed. Weight is a factor but not a big enough factor to have any real impact on performance unless you are massively over/under the range. Fitness, training, skill will have a much much bigger impact.

Personally I feel you should pick a rig and sail it 100% of the time, irrespective of conditions. This should be whatever rig the person feels comfortable with throughout the wind range, not necessarily what the weight range states.
 
Are you also going to suggest height limits? Leverage makes a big difference too. Even when I was heavy enough for the full rig I was too short to make use of that weight. The short heavy guy and the tall light guy could both be quite happy in the same rig.

Weight limits in the radial are just not needed. Weight is a factor but not a big enough factor to have any real impact on performance unless you are massively over/under the range. Fitness, training, skill will have a much much bigger impact.

Personally I feel you should pick a rig and sail it 100% of the time, irrespective of conditions. This should be whatever rig the person feels comfortable with throughout the wind range, not necessarily what the weight range states.

I'd love to sail just the Radial, but as a Master in North America, I have to have two rigs and switch when conditions suggest it. All the guys I race with at the Water Rats sail Full Rigs on Tuesday/Thursday club races. When I sail Radials at regattas, unless they are Catagory 1 regattas, I race junior club kids mostly, which is okay, but weird. I have to race bigger guys in Fulls all the time in wind to get good racing. It's frustrating but I'm okay with that as long as I can have my own little party with guys my size at the Worlds. But, I can't because, when it suits them, they come down to the Radial, and kick my ass again!!
 

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