Halyard cleat

minifish

New Member
Thirty minutes into christening the newly restored boat, the halyard main cleat stripped from the deck. :rolleyes:
It is the only thing I haven't repaired on this boat, lol. And imagine my surprise when the sail came down on me and I realized the cleat was gone.
But my knot held and never released the cleat so I still have it. :D (good sailor 101 gold star)

So I have a plan and wanted opinions which may range from "Great idea" to "Just put your sailing gloves on the table and leave".

The minifish is slightly different than the sunfish. The cleat is right next to the mast and there's no bull's eye fairlead, or what have you, that the halyard runs through to go back to the mainsheet cleat. So the halyard pulls up on the cleat without any other items to help with the load.

I've yet to inspect the wood underneath, but I suspect that I should be able to drill out the hole and hopefully small amount of softened wood, stuff some marine tex in there, and reattach.

Would it be better to run screws into the wet marine tex or let it cure in the holes, redrill holes and screw it in?

If the wood is soft, I'ma be pissed. I've already got two inspection ports and would need a third in order to get to it. :mad:
 
Put a cleat on the mast to tie off the halyard. Run the mast cleat bolts through to the other side of the mast and use locknuts, you'll never ever have to worry about it again. Get some of those machine screw anchors that have the burrs on them at the hardware store. Drill and sink them into the cleat holes on the deck using epoxy. Reinstall the deck cleat and use it to tie off the loose end of the halyard to keep from loosing the mast when you tip over.
 
Yes, I see.

As per the attached pic, where would you suggest putting the cleat on the mast so it and the loose end of the halyard are not in the way? I'd like to have the option of a low rigged sail.
 

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  • cleat.jpg
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So I drilled holes for the cleat on the mast using a handy dandy drill press. To my surprise, the cleat was not drilled square from the manufacture so aligning things was the pits.:mad: So, it's slightly crooked but will work.
I just hope my OCD doesn't find out.
 
It's too late now for minifish, but for the others who will be doing this job:

  • Drill the first hole in the mast at the appropriate height (hand drill should work fine)
  • Loosely attach the cleat to the mast with screw
  • Drill the second hole, through the opening in the cleat
  • Seal and set the screws
 
It's too late now for minifish, but for the others who will be doing this job:

  • Drill the first hole in the mast at the appropriate height (hand drill should work fine)
  • Loosely attach the cleat to the mast with screw
  • Drill the second hole, through the opening in the cleat
  • Seal and set the screws


My problem came from the cleat. I should have drilled through the cleat first so that I have a straight hole. This cleat came with one that is cock-eyed. :mad:
 
So the holes in the mast are correct but the problem is the cleat? Sounds like it's just a matter of finding a cleat of the same type that is drilled correctly and replacing the current cleat. Maybe eaiser said than done. Thanks for the heads up, I'll take a trip to WC Marine and see if them high priced official Natuical Cleats are any better.

A drill press would be my first choice to try and get the holes lined up on both sides of the mast.
 
It's too late now for minifish, but for the others who will be doing this job:

  • Drill the first hole in the mast at the appropriate height (hand drill should work fine)
  • Loosely attach the cleat to the mast with screw
  • Drill the second hole, through the opening in the cleat
  • Seal and set the screws

This is exactly how I do it. Except I don't use screws. I use a racing clam cleat and (2) 3/16 rivets at the height of 35 inches. Screws will work fine. I prefer rivets because they are easy to drill out and replace if they start to corrode.

As someone already mentioned, if you drill one hole, you can insert a pop rivet without setting it and then center punch the other hole or use the cleat for a guide to start drilling the second hole. (2) rivets will hold and that eliminates any funky looking thru-bolt sticking out at an odd angle. Dab a little silicone on the opening when done.

Here is what I use for a cleat. I have not yet dabbed on a silicone--I'm changing my coaming from screws to rivets and plan to do the silicone last.

SunfishScud228.jpg


 
Has anybody tried threading the boltholes for the cleat, so you don't have anything sticking out the other side? I know the aluminum isn't that thick, but there are two (or maybe even 4) and it isn't that much load. If it didn't hold, then you could either rivet or drill through both sides and through-bolt.
 
Through-bolting isn't necessary, IMHO.

I have sailed with a halyard cleat mounted on the mast with two screws for about five years now and haven't noticed a problem. I don't sail that often, but the rig has seen stronger breezes (up to about 25 mph).

Has anybody had a halyard cleat torn out off the mast?
 
3/16 aluminum pop rivets with aluminum mandrel have a shear strength of 700 lbs. 3/16 Rope is around 5000 lbs pull strength. I'm not sure what would break first but I have a feeling the gaff would bend into a v-shape long before anything else broke.

If you're going to use machine screws, it sure sounds like a good application for Rivet Nuts.
 
So where do you get and how do you install rivet nuts (rivnuts?)? Do they make them where you can install with a standard pop rivet gun? How do you keep rivet nuts from loosening and spinning in the holes when you're trying to put in / take out stubborn screws?
 
Wavedancer, did you use machine screws & threaded holes or thread-cutting sheet metal screws?

It's been a long time and my memory isn't getter better :(
No threaded holes though; I just drilled the holes and bought (stainless steel) screws that fit the cleat.

 
Yes; after tying the halyard to the mast cleat, the end is passed through the bulls eye fairlead on the deck and then tied around the deck cleat. Racers also tie a vang with the halyard. Such a vang will also prevent the rig from liberating itself.
 
I have installed more than a dozen mast Halyard cleats. DON'T drill all the way thru the mast, BAD idea. The nuts on the other side will rub the sail when on port tack and I have seen masts break and drilling through both sides only weakens it unnecessarily. .#8 by 1-1/2 inch long stainess screws OR stainless rivets work fine (not aluminum), The small 3 inch fiber reinforced plastic horn cleats (2 bucks) work great. I race these and they will hold the halyard with a truckers hitch giving 3 to 1 purchase (really tight). Put them in line with the halyard about 2 or three feet up the mast. You definitely want to get that kind of load off the deck!! Then run the halyard tail through the deck eye and lightly tie off on the deck horn to keep the mast from falling out if you flip, OR better yet always tie a Vang, even in light air a small amount of vang helps so why not use it? And in strong wing it is essential to flatten (depower) the sail by really honking on it so that the lower spar is bent.
 
NightSailor,

That is fine rivet work you have on your (march 2009) racing cleat to mast attachment. May I ask what rivet gun you use, and what provisions you use to keep water out of the mast. Thank you for the info, again.
 
NightSailor,

That is fine rivet work you have on your (march 2009) racing cleat to mast attachment. May I ask what rivet gun you use, and what provisions you use to keep water out of the mast. Thank you for the info, again.




Rivet Gun I use:

RivetGun317.jpg


With head tilted for better access in confined areas:

RivetGun318.jpg


For filling the holes. I think I mentioned that I plan to put a dab of silicone on the rivets. Which I need to do soon as I want to get sailing with these this weekend. I've been using Aluminum 3/16 rivets with no problems.

I'm somewhat uncomfortable with stainless, having years of experience with corrosion between stainless and aluminum--albeit in threaded applications--you absolutely need to use never seize on the threads. Stainless would be stronger and easy to drill and pop-rivet a replacement if corrosion started. So I'm not anti Stainless for rivets in this application--I simply have not had problems with 3/16" aluminum rivets.

I 100% agree with Johnnywo on not drilling all the way through the mast--very bad idea. I'd like to hear why he thinks aluminum rivet are so bad. Were you using 1/8 rivets? Those would not hold.

As for the mast, I have been thinking of following the suggestions I've read here, made by people with more experience than I with these boats--drilling a drain hole in the bottom. I don't see much point trying to keep water out, if it means that when it gets in, it stays in. I'd rather have a draining mast.
 
I am new to this site. I have a Sunfish made between 1960-62, according to a former long time employee named Howard Picard. Mr. Picard also has a website for Sunfish parts. I spoke with him a couple of years ago as I needed a Bow Handle and was referred to him by Annapolis Performance Sailing. After a phone conversation, I emailed him several pictures and he stated he believed the boat was built in the above time period. The reason for this inquiry is that I need a halyard cleat. My boat's original cleat is mounted on the top deck of the boat and has 3 screws. It is cracked in 2 places and I am afraid to put the strain of the sail on this cleat. I cannot find this exact replacement. I have a replacement from APS but after seeing the posts, have decided the best place to mount it is on the mast. Also, my replacement cleat cannot utilize pop rivets since the holes go through the cleat and it is obviously meant to be mounted on the boat deck with screws. This replacement cleat only has holes for 2 screws and they will not align with the existing 3 screw holes on the deck. I am interested in the device used by Night Sailer with the picture included on this thread. Where can this device be purchased? I have owned this Sunfish for 17 years but have not used it in several years. I keep it stored in a cradle I adapted utilizing a hand crank up jet ski lift. I keep it at the top of my boathouse on Smith Mountain Lake in VA and it is completely out of the weather. I am going to use this little sailboat more since I just recently closed my real estate appraisal business and retired. I just need this halyard cleat replacement. I am very wary to try to mount the replacement one I have on the deck top. The mast mount using pop rivets seems to be the way to go. I would appreciate any information to solve this problem. Thanks, Terry
 
smlake/Terry:
Nothing against rivets and such, but screws work just as well and don't require a special tool. Just a drill; see my earlier (5/13) post.

Perhaps more importantly, you still need a deck cleat to keep the rig with the boat in case of a capsize. If you don't trust the old deck fitting, I would advise you to add a port so you can properly install the APS cleat you bought.
 
I've done the mast cleat with bolts and nuts. I don't worry about the mast cleat screws that can corrode and pull out. A fairly easy job. Use a length of 2" PVC piping and cut a notch on one end just big enough to snug a nut into. I used nyloc nuts, but you can probably use any nut of sufficient size to grip against the curved inner surface of the mast. Drill the upper hole in the mast where you want to locate the cleat. Feed the PVC pipe inside the mast and align the nut with the hole. Repeat with the lower hole. As always, seal your work (I use 5200) when you tighten the bolt. As you tighten the bolt, the nut will seat on the curved surface on the mast. Repeat with the lower hole. I use a metal horn cleat and don't worry about replacing it. A little patience and some extra light and presto, you have a mast cleat that will NOT come out. :) I used this same trick to bolt cleats onto the boom. If you use rivets, they WILL eventually fail and Murphy's law says that this will occur at the worst possible moment. :(
 
Thanks so much for the quick reply. What do you mean by adding a port? I really am ignorant about these little sailboats and sailing in general. Also, any idea as to where to get the device in the picture, whatever it is called. Do you have electrolysis problems using stainless steel screws with the aluminum mast? Could I use the two screw halyard cleat (purchased from Annapolis Performance) on the deck to keep the mast and boat together if case of (or when I) turn the boat over? Do you have any idea of the number of threads on the stainless steel screws? I assume they do not screw through both sides of the mast. Thanks again for the help. Terry
 
Thanks so much for the quick reply. What do you mean by adding a port? I really am ignorant about these little sailboats and sailing in general. Also, any idea as to where to get the device in the picture, whatever it is called. Do you have electrolysis problems using stainless steel screws with the aluminum mast? Could I use the two screw halyard cleat (purchased from Annapolis Performance) on the deck to keep the mast and boat together if case of (or when I) turn the boat over? Do you have any idea of the number of threads on the stainless steel screws? I assume they do not screw through both sides of the mast. Thanks again for the help. Terry

I don't like cutting ports in the deck. I think it makes the boat look like crap.

If you want a clam cleat and a couple of rivets, I have one of these up for auction on eBay at present. Do a search for Sunfish Clam Cleat and it should show up.

I will agree that through bolting is stronger but it is a whole lot faster to rivet a cleat on, and you can easily drill it out and replace it if it starts to look weak or feel loose. So far one of these has lasted over seven years with moderate use. True you need a rivet gun, which will cost you a few bucks, but compared to the PITA of bolting one on, I think it is a no-brainer to rivet one on in less than five minutes. To replace a rivet takes 2 minutes. How long to bolt one on? A couple of hours fussing with removing the mast base, building a jig to hold the nut, sweating bullets trying to line it up, having to wait for a friend to screw it on while you hole the nut in place? PITA

But if you want to bolt one on, go for it. It is stronger and you won't have to worry about it or inspect it often. One advantage to bolting is you can use a horn cleat on the mast instead of a clam cleat. I like horn cleats. Still my choice is the rivet technique with clam cleat--three boats rigged like this and I'm about to do the fourth the same way.

But like wave dancer said, you still need a cleat on the deck to attach the rig to the boat. I'd try filling in the old hole with a dab of epoxy and then re-drilling the hole with a bit slightly smaller than the screws and then screw it back on. If that still feels weak you can move it over an inch one way or another and mount it there, without cutting a big hole in your deck. There must me some wood backing there, because one of my boats had one of these moved over. I just removed it and it was secured with wood screws.

Good luck with your boat and post some pictures for us!

 
Has anybody tried threading the boltholes for the cleat, so you don't have anything sticking out the other side? I know the aluminum isn't that thick, but there are two (or maybe even 4) and it isn't that much load. If it didn't hold, then you could either rivet or drill through both sides and through-bolt.

I like this idea better than trying to put a nut in there. But you should use "never-seize" or the stainless with eventually bond to the mast with corrosion and you will have to break it off. Given the angles of the loads, I think it would hold well and be more easily serviceable, however, there is the chance the cleat would rip out. Not a huge problem on a recreational boat.
 
I agree with rivets, you can get aluminum rivets which will not react with the aluminum mast, you can't buy aluminum screws or bolts. Stainless hardware will promote wicked corrosion when in contact with aluminum, particularly in a salt water environment.
 
I know that is the theory and I understand why, but, aren't all the bigger boats with aluminum spars completely rigged with stainless tangs fastened with stainless screws or bolts? If there is a problem, they have a LOT more to lose than us little fishes. :confused:
 
What great response to my question! I must educate myself about your terminology and will get back to you all. Thanks so much. When fixed, I will post pics. Terry
 
Tangs are used to attach shrouds to the mast and corrosion isn't a major concern here as the tangs are somewhat free to move in their slots. However all other mast and boom fittings are attached via stainless hardware and the corrosion that occurs virtually welds the two dissimilar metals together. Actually you can use a product called Never seize, it is a grey paste that will afford a fair bit of protection to stainless/ aluminum attachments.
 
I use Never seize on every spark plug that goes into any engine. It is great stuff. I have ordered the parts today from Annapolis Performance. They strongly suggested using stainless steel rivets rather than the aluminum rivets, even with the electrolysis problem. I will keep you posted. Perhaps others are as ignorant of these sailing boat issues as I am.
 
nightsailor - what clam cleat model did you use? and/or where did/do you purchase them?

thanks,
tag
 

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