Class Politics New sail design - Keep the Dream Alive!

iagree.gif
w/ Gordo
 
Hi,
At Page 8 at the "Laser World of Dec 2008"* did inform about the proposed boat developements and class rule changes. The new blocks for the mainsheet and the traveller are reality now. Any news to the other Laserparts that are mentioned in the text? There surely has been a meeting of the ILCA World Council at the Laser Senior Worlds /Laser Master Worlds at Hailfax, a couple of days ago. Any trustful hearsay of news for the rest of the Laser sailng world to tell openly?

Ciao
LooserLu
 
For most of us, one sail a year is plenty. I normally buy one a year - in the first year it is my regatta sail (on average 40 races), in the second year it is my club racing sail (another 50 or so races), and in the third year it is my training sail. That seems like a pretty good return for $600 (Australian) to me - maybe $3 each time I go sailing? I chose the changeover point pretty carefully to coincide with the biggest regatta of the year, and have never in my life felt that someone else has beaten me in a race because their sail was better than mine.

As an average (I hope!) Laser sailor that is pretty much the model I use, although I don't manage to log that many regattas a year outside the beercans which get my B or C sail typically. I think that if sail prices were say $325-$350 I might buy two in a year depending on what regattas I get to go to but might do that every other year instead of every year. Of course, I recall that it wasn't too many years ago when sails cost that much and, because of my income level at the time, I didn't ever buy more than one a year anyway. . .

Gouvernail's point is well made although he forgot
11. spend $3+ on a cup of coffee every day
-- try giving up Starbucks (or whatever your primary vice is) everyday or every other day for at least part of the year and see how much savings you can put towards your new sail!

While I think a more durable sail is the way to go, has anyone looked at the opposite model? Maybe trying to make sails last longer is the wrong way to go for sailors and the class and we should work on making them cheaper even though they won't last as long.

Could sails be made cheaper so that even though one might buy several a season they still come out ahead in the long run? I'm thinking something similar to a North 3DL where they're essentially cranked out on a machine in high volume might be a way to bring them down to a "magic" price point where buying several a year is practical for most sailors.

Let's say that sails could be cranked out cheaply enough that they could sell for say, $200 and still cover all the hands in the chain with a fair margin. Maybe your average club sailor doing a summer beercan series, a number of regional regattas and one or two big ones in a year would not find it unreasonable to buy a new one at the start of the season, another part way through the season for the regionals and one for the major regattas. Each hit of $200 is a relatively small percentage of the overall cost of competing, the sailor gets relatively more new sail sailing time during the year and the builders, dealers and class benefit by more volume. The guys who sail a lot more would buy proportionately more while the guys who sail less would of course buy less new but might benefit from more second-hand sails being available.

Mind you, a cynic might say that whatever the quality of the class sail we might still be having these discussions about the cost & longevity of the sails not being good enough as our expectations continue to change over time. . .
 
While I think a more durable sail is the way to go, has anyone looked at the opposite model? Maybe trying to make sails last longer is the wrong way to go for sailors and the class and we should work on making them cheaper even though they won't last as long.

Could sails be made cheaper so that even though one might buy several a season they still come out ahead in the long run? I'm thinking something similar to a North 3DL where they're essentially cranked out on a machine in high volume might be a way to bring them down to a "magic" price point where buying several a year is practical for most sailors.

Let's say that sails could be cranked out cheaply enough that they could sell for say, $200 and still cover all the hands in the chain with a fair margin. Maybe your average club sailor doing a summer beercan series, a number of regional regattas and one or two big ones in a year would not find it unreasonable to buy a new one at the start of the season, another part way through the season for the regionals and one for the major regattas. Each hit of $200 is a relatively small percentage of the overall cost of competing, the sailor gets relatively more new sail sailing time during the year and the builders, dealers and class benefit by more volume. The guys who sail a lot more would buy proportionately more while the guys who sail less would of course buy less new but might benefit from more second-hand sails being available.

Mind you, a cynic might say that whatever the quality of the class sail we might still be having these discussions about the cost & longevity of the sails not being good enough as our expectations continue to change over time. . .

I think making the sail cheaper so we all buy more is the wrong way to go. In this world of climate change and recycling that just means that there will be more junk going in to landfill (unless anyone has found a way to make something useful out of a lot of ols Laser sails).

Lets face it the top (olympic level) guys will almost always use a new sail at each regatta they compete in. For us mere mortals just having a sail that is competitive for multiple seasons would be great.

For other classes I have competed in this is the norm. I had a 5 year old sail in one class and was still sailing at the same speed as I was when I put a new one on (I only changed it because the old sail quite literally fell apart).

My 2 year old Intensity replica is still in very good condition given the hammering it has had (I only sail the standard rig when it is too windy for the 8.1 or if I fancy some class racing). It has been a windy 18 months over here in the UK! If I were using a class legal sail I have no doubt that it would be trashed by now! It is possible to make this change sucessfully but the technical guys have a very difficult job to do to ensure that they do not suddenly obsolete all other sails that are out there.

I look forward to the developments once they become more public (perhaps even having some 'beta' trials to get feedback from the grass roots).
 
Disclaimer: I'm not a racer because there are virtually no races near me, and, to be honest, I could care less about racing so my thoughts are my own based soley on what I believe to be common sense :eek:

Having said that, isn't the whole sail issue much easier to resolve?

The fact of the matter is that OEM Laser sails are over-priced. A good friend of my family was an exceptional boat builder (retired). He designed and built several very successful 35-40' sailboats, several of which won the Victoria to Maui races. My point is, when it comes to sailboats/sailing, the man is veteran who knows what he's talking about (more so then I!)

He bought a lot of sails, big ones. He couldn't believe that a little dinky Laser sail was a whopping $600 Why? Because it's way overpriced compared to what he paid for larger and heavier sails.

Some might disagree with that logic. OK, how come an Intensity sail is so cheap then? It's probably even a better sail. But wait, it's not legal ! That's the issue.

Am I the only one that understands that OEM products cost way more money? If the rules legislate an OEM sail then, from my view, it's in the best interests of the OEM when the sail is $600 and a virtually identical Intensity sail is sub $200

My point being that the $400 difference is going somewhere....

Being forced to go OEM is nothing but a big advantage to... the OEM. That advantage comes at the cost of the consumer. Any time you stifle competition you get what? Price fixing and/or gouging.

Competition however tends to breed two things, one, better quality and two, a lower price.

Throughout history we see this. VCR's were originally more then $1,000 Competition, coupled with mass production, reduced them to free with any purchase of $50 or more :D Historically it's like that with everything.

Why not make the solution as simple as this. Allow a person to use either an OEM laser sail or an Internsity sail ? Competition like that would cause the OEM price to drop like a rock or they would pack up and go home because their production methods are less effective. That's the American way. You reward the innovator and you punish the glutton, and as such, the consumer wins and the innovator sells more product making more money based on what? Volume.

In any business, when you mass produce something the price typically drops because the manufacturer buys the components needed in higher quantities (he pays less) and then automates, as much as possible, the manufacturing process. This cost savings ultimately leads directly to a lower price for OEM and they usually pass some of that off to the end user - unless you've managed to legislate a monopoly. It's my understanding that more then 200,000 Lasers have been built. That's 200,000 sails. Yet, for more then a decade the price has been fixed at more then $500

Why aren't we, as consumers, rewarding Intensity for making, if anything, a better sail for less then $200 and make it the standard and slowly phase out OEM sails.

If the point of the whole thing is standardization and eliminating anti-competitive variations during manufacturing, then standardize on a cheaper model that still maintains the same quality. If you're worried that this would lead to another monopoly, then award several different companies the contract or enforce price management to ensure, once awarded the contract, the company didn't raise the price from sub $200 to $600

Another alternative is to take a que from Stock Car racing where they measure the cars before each race to ensure that someone didn't make one to a slightly smaler scale (this actually happened). They created a very simple measuring jig for this. It takes 5 seconds to put it on the car to ensure that it's 'within spec'.

It would not be a problem to ensure that every major event were outfitted with a class legal jig to quickly measure the entrants sail size before each race. This is not rocket science folks!

As far as I can see, were it not for the class rules, a person could probably sue using Sherman anti-trust laws as their basis. You could probably make a price fixing/gouging case. Someone is getting fat off an enforced $600 sail when you can buy the same (or better) for sub $200. And remember, it's the consumer that's paying that $400 surcharge (that means you!)

In any business, contracts are typically awarded by two things, price and quality. Both have to be present. Yet in the Laser world this is not the case. The Laser world exists in a world where the traditional capitalist system does not apply. It's Bizzare-O world where everything is backwards.

For as long as I can remember an OEM Laser sail was always at least $500 - that's going back more then a decade. Because I don't race it's the reason I never bought a new sail. Instead, I made do with my 27 year old sail (I'm not kidding here - my Mom used to sew it back together!).

Intensity was the biggest blessing I've ever seen in my little Laser world. I had never seen a brand new sail before I bought theirs. I refused to be gouged. Not only did I get a brand new sub $200 sail but it came with battens, two cases, a fancy clew tie down and the highest quality sailing calendar I'd ever seen. It even came with tell-tales and numbers!!

That's an incredible value. You guys would know better then I if the Intenstity sail has the same merit with respect to sailability etc. It's my understanding that it's designed to be more durable then the OEM.

My question is this, why aren't we rewarding them for doing an incredible job and, if anything, going more then the extra mile? I doubt anyone would balk if the legislative body woke up one morning and said, "We're going with them". If the worst thing that happened was that everyone had to part with less then $200 to fix this issue once and for all - and they got a brand new sail in the process - then so be it. Why make it more complex then it has to be with entirely new sail designs etc?

After many years in the automotive business, the computer industry and in general business I thought I'd seen every possible type of gouging. The thing is though, in every case competition could come in - if they wanted to.

It's only in the Laser world where anti-competition practices have been able to be legislated. Normally the federal government steps in when that occurs. Now, I understand that legislation is required due to the one design principle but the fact is, Intensity seems to be making, if anything, a better sail for less then $200 and that tells me one thing - the emporer has no clothes!
 
Disclaimer: I'm not a racer because there are virtually no races near me, and, to be honest, I could care less about racing so my thoughts are my own based soley on what I believe to be common sense :eek:

Having said that, isn't the whole sail issue much easier to resolve?

The fact of the matter is that OEM Laser sails are over-priced. A good friend of my family was an exceptional boat builder (retired). He designed and built several very successful 35-40' sailboats, several of which won the Victoria to Maui races. My point is, when it comes to sailboats/sailing, the man is veteran who knows what he's talking about (more so then I!)

He bought a lot of sails, big ones. He couldn't believe that a little dinky Laser sail was a whopping $600 Why? Because it's way overpriced compared to what he paid for larger and heavier sails.

Some might disagree with that logic. OK, how come an Intensity sail is so cheap then? It's probably even a better sail. But wait, it's not legal ! That's the issue.

Am I the only one that understands that OEM products cost way more money? If the rules legislate an OEM sail then, from my view, it's in the best interests of the OEM when the sail is $600 and a virtually identical Intensity sail is sub $200

My point being that the $400 difference is going somewhere....

Being forced to go OEM is nothing but a big advantage to... the OEM. That advantage comes at the cost of the consumer. Any time you stifle competition you get what? Price fixing and/or gouging.

Competition however tends to breed two things, one, better quality and two, a lower price.

Throughout history we see this. VCR's were originally more then $1,000 Competition, coupled with mass production, reduced them to free with any purchase of $50 or more :D Historically it's like that with everything.

Why not make the solution as simple as this. Allow a person to use either an OEM laser sail or an Internsity sail ? Competition like that would cause the OEM price to drop like a rock or they would pack up and go home because their production methods are less effective. That's the American way. You reward the innovator and you punish the glutton, and as such, the consumer wins and the innovator sells more product making more money based on what? Volume.

In any business, when you mass produce something the price typically drops because the manufacturer buys the components needed in higher quantities (he pays less) and then automates, as much as possible, the manufacturing process. This cost savings ultimately leads directly to a lower price for OEM and they usually pass some of that off to the end user - unless you've managed to legislate a monopoly. It's my understanding that more then 200,000 Lasers have been built. That's 200,000 sails. Yet, for more then a decade the price has been fixed at more then $500

Why aren't we, as consumers, rewarding Intensity for making, if anything, a better sail for less then $200 and make it the standard and slowly phase out OEM sails.

If the point of the whole thing is standardization and eliminating anti-competitive variations during manufacturing, then standardize on a cheaper model that still maintains the same quality. If you're worried that this would lead to another monopoly, then award several different companies the contract or enforce price management to ensure, once awarded the contract, the company didn't raise the price from sub $200 to $600

Another alternative is to take a que from Stock Car racing where they measure the cars before each race to ensure that someone didn't make one to a slightly smaler scale (this actually happened). They created a very simple measuring jig for this. It takes 5 seconds to put it on the car to ensure that it's 'within spec'.

It would not be a problem to ensure that every major event were outfitted with a class legal jig to quickly measure the entrants sail size before each race. This is not rocket science folks!

As far as I can see, were it not for the class rules, a person could probably sue using Sherman anti-trust laws as their basis. You could probably make a price fixing/gouging case. Someone is getting fat off an enforced $600 sail when you can buy the same (or better) for sub $200. And remember, it's the consumer that's paying that $400 surcharge (that means you!)

In any business, contracts are typically awarded by two things, price and quality. Both have to be present. Yet in the Laser world this is not the case. The Laser world exists in a world where the traditional capitalist system does not apply. It's Bizzare-O world where everything is backwards.

For as long as I can remember an OEM Laser sail was always at least $500 - that's going back more then a decade. Because I don't race it's the reason I never bought a new sail. Instead, I made do with my 27 year old sail (I'm not kidding here - my Mom used to sew it back together!).

Intensity was the biggest blessing I've ever seen in my little Laser world. I had never seen a brand new sail before I bought theirs. I refused to be gouged. Not only did I get a brand new sub $200 sail but it came with battens, two cases, a fancy clew tie down and the highest quality sailing calendar I'd ever seen. It even came with tell-tales and numbers!!

That's an incredible value. You guys would know better then I if the Intenstity sail has the same merit with respect to sailability etc. It's my understanding that it's designed to be more durable then the OEM.

My question is this, why aren't we rewarding them for doing an incredible job and, if anything, going more then the extra mile? I doubt anyone would balk if the legislative body woke up one morning and said, "We're going with them". If the worst thing that happened was that everyone had to part with less then $200 to fix this issue once and for all - and they got a brand new sail in the process - then so be it. Why make it more complex then it has to be with entirely new sail designs etc?

After many years in the automotive business, the computer industry and in general business I thought I'd seen every possible type of gouging. The thing is though, in every case competition could come in - if they wanted to.

It's only in the Laser world where anti-competition practices have been able to be legislated. Normally the federal government steps in when that occurs. Now, I understand that legislation is required due to the one design principle but the fact is, Intensity seems to be making, if anything, a better sail for less then $200 and that tells me one thing - the emporer has no clothes!

It's been said way too many times why the laser sail costs the way it does. Look through more of these threads and you'll get your answer on that. Intensity sails are so cheap because sell direct rather than the supply chain. And remember, Intensity sails aren't Laser sails. They aren't innovating anything, they aren't following the rules that the Laser class sets for a sail.

There is enough testing on new sail designs going on that we should see something come of it in the future. The class knows the issues with the sail design and it's trying to be fixed but it takes time.

I disagree that competition will bring down the sail price, in fact it would hurt. You want an example of this look at the Optimist class. Look at how expensive their sails are ($550 at the max, for a sail that's even smaller than a Laser). All are class legal. Adding that kind of variety will bring sail prices up and turn the class into an arms race so people spend more and more money to buy what they think the best sails are. The price won't go down.

Adding measurements to the class takes time away from major regattas where we would normally just show up and race because we know everything on the boat is legal. Now with things replica sails and parts, that hurts the class because now people have to think twice about what's out there and then we waste time measuring when we should be racing.
 
It's been said way too many times why the laser sail costs the way it does. Look through more of these threads and you'll get your answer on that. Intensity sails are so cheap because sell direct rather than the supply chain. And remember, Intensity sails aren't Laser sails. They aren't innovating anything, they aren't following the rules that the Laser class sets for a sail.

There is enough testing on new sail designs going on that we should see something come of it in the future. The class knows the issues with the sail design and it's trying to be fixed but it takes time.

I disagree that competition will bring down the sail price, in fact it would hurt. You want an example of this look at the Optimist class. Look at how expensive their sails are ($550 at the max, for a sail that's even smaller than a Laser). All are class legal. Adding that kind of variety will bring sail prices up and turn the class into an arms race so people spend more and more money to buy what they think the best sails are. The price won't go down.

Adding measurements to the class takes time away from major regattas where we would normally just show up and race because we know everything on the boat is legal. Now with things replica sails and parts, that hurts the class because now people have to think twice about what's out there and then we waste time measuring when we should be racing.

I think AlanD would beg to differ on your comment about measuring. Just because the Laser is a One Design class with a tight ruleset does not mean that measuring is not required.

I will agree that it is not along the lines of other classes such as the Finn and Fireball where they can (and do) have a full measurement process before all major regattas. All boats are required to hold a valid measurement certificate and all sails must be signed as being measured by an authorised class measurer prior to the event.

The class has a difficult job with regards to the sail because it has not been touched or updated for so long. They have to get the blanace right between making progress and ensuring they do not obsolete every sail that is currently in circulation. As it is we are unlikely to see this prior to the end of the current olympic cycle unless they can persaude the ISAF to allow it.

From what I have seen things look promising although more updates are required from the technical comittee (IMO) because most of the stuff we find out is based on what people have seen/heard from the people in power.
 
What kind of timeframe are we talking about for any decision about a new sail or is this still a bit of a pipe dream?

Just thinking about when I will purchase a new sail....

Most major rule revisions (like a new sail) seem to tie in to the four-year Olympic cycle. I'm betting we wouldn't see a new sail before 2012.
 
I think AlanD would beg to differ on your comment about measuring. Just because the Laser is a One Design class with a tight ruleset does not mean that measuring is not required.

I will agree that it is not along the lines of other classes such as the Finn and Fireball where they can (and do) have a full measurement process before all major regattas. All boats are required to hold a valid measurement certificate and all sails must be signed as being measured by an authorised class measurer prior to the event.

The class has a difficult job with regards to the sail because it has not been touched or updated for so long. They have to get the blanace right between making progress and ensuring they do not obsolete every sail that is currently in circulation. As it is we are unlikely to see this prior to the end of the current olympic cycle unless they can persaude the ISAF to allow it.

From what I have seen things look promising although more updates are required from the technical comittee (IMO) because most of the stuff we find out is based on what people have seen/heard from the people in power.


What I mean is for Worlds and big Regional events I can see that but adding measurement all the way down to a District Championship level (I'm talking about a NA district) just takes too much time (and where are you going to get all the people to do it?) . When you go to a big event like Worlds you expect to get things looked at. Most I've had (going to US nationals and NAs) in terms of measurement is making sure the sail numbers are the same as the boat and there's a measurement button on the sail. Nothing more. Adding measures to every class legal regatta is not the right step. As long as we educate people that you can't use these parts they will figure it out and self police it. It's the increasing availability of replica parts that's almost forcing the class to create groups of measures so all the regattas have someone there to look over the fleet to make sure everyone is using the right stuff.
 
Intensity sails are so cheap because sell direct rather than the supply chain. And remember, Intensity sails aren't Laser sails. They aren't innovating anything, they aren't following the rules that the Laser class sets for a sail.

Hmmm.... as a businessmen I could drive a truck through that argument. The trend in business all over the world is going direct.

Everyone understands that the supply chain costs the consumer. Remember, that $400 fee is going somewhere....and it's the consumer that's paying for it. (That's us by the way and that means you dear reader). With respect to an Intensity sail not being a Laser sail - that's because it's been legislated so by a legislative body that's been endorsing a monopoly for decades. That point can't be made more clear then it already has.

I disagree that competition will bring down the sail price, in fact it would hurt. You want an example of this look at the Optimist class. Look at how expensive their sails are ($550 at the max, for a sail that's even smaller than a Laser). All are class legal. Adding that kind of variety will bring sail prices up and turn the class into an arms race so people spend more and more money to buy what they think the best sails are. The price won't go down.

And yet, the fact is, there is a sub-$200 sail on the market right now. Maybe it's just me but it seems like the price already did go down - and that's in a market that's legislated by government mandate to specifically thwart competition under the guise of keeping every boat the same.

Adding measurements to the class takes time away from major regattas where we would normally just show up and race because we know everything on the boat is legal. Now with things replica sails and parts, that hurts the class because now people have to think twice about what's out there and then we waste time measuring when we should be racing.

That argument doesn't really hold water. For a couple of reasons. First, you don't have to implement measuring. You could just shift the sail endoresement from the current one, to, for example, the Intensity sail. Just like that. Everyone saves $400 and we reward the company that's innovating and everyone still has the same damn sail. This is not rocket science folks - it's a simple problem.

But that's the point right - the reason why a solution as simple as this is not being undertaken is because someone is protecting that $400 fee under the auspices of ensuring no-one is getting an unfair advantage.

In today's world of computer controlled manufacturing it's dead simple to stamp out 200,000 identical sails where there is, for all intents and purposes, no variance.

Supply chains are going the way of the wind (pardon the pun). The only time paying an extra $400 fee for going through a supply chain is when it adds value.

A Laser sail is a commodity item - there's no tech support required for it and it does not require the complex shipping or handling that typically necessitates a supply chain.

Who wants to endorse and pay for the supply chain with respect to the sail? That means that every time a sailor buys a new sail he's being forced to give an extra $400 as a donation to support the supply chain? In the business world that's called an anti-competitve practice - to say the least.

Look, the proof is in the pudding. If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;

1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
2) Everyone would have the same sail
3) There would be no need for measuring.

Problem solved.

Instead, the legilative body has chosen to force the sailors to part with $400 extra dollars every time they buy a new sail to support what? The supply chain. For a commodity item that does not require a supply chain in the first place.

Maybe it's just me but I'm not going to vote with my hard dollars to support a supply chain. Here's an idea, why don't we take that $400 padding fee (let's call it what it really is) and give it to up and coming young sailors as a donation to support the sport? That's at least something I'd be willing to pony up the 'padding fee' for.

Instead of rewarding a company like Intensity - we punish them. And for what? Because they chose to make life better for sailors by offering a sail for $400 less on a $600 dollar purchase!!

America, as a country, was built on just that kind of innovation and customer-driven approach. Normally that kind of behavior gets rewarded, but remember, the Laser world is actually Bizarre-O world where the standard laws of business don't apply.
 
Hmmm.... as a businessmen I could drive a truck through that argument. The trend in business all over the world is going direct.

Everyone understands that the supply chain costs the consumer. Remember, that $400 fee is going somewhere....and it's the consumer that's paying for it. (That's us by the way and that means you dear reader). With respect to an Intensity sail not being a Laser sail - that's because it's been legislated so by a legislative body that's been endorsing a monopoly for decades. That point can't be made more clear then it already has.



And yet, the fact is, there is a sub-$200 sail on the market right now. Maybe it's just me but it seems like the price already did go down - and that's in a market that's legislated by government mandate to specifically thwart competition under the guise of keeping every boat the same.



That argument doesn't really hold water. For a couple of reasons. First, you don't have to implement measuring. You could just shift the sail endoresement from the current one, to, for example, the Intensity sail. Just like that. Everyone saves $400 and we reward the company that's innovating and everyone still has the same damn sail. This is not rocket science folks - it's a simple problem.

But that's the point right - the reason why a solution as simple as this is not being undertaken is because someone is protecting that $400 fee under the auspices of ensuring no-one is getting an unfair advantage.

In today's world of computer controlled manufacturing it's dead simple to stamp out 200,000 identical sails where there is, for all intents and purposes, no variance.

Supply chains are going the way of the wind (pardon the pun). The only time paying an extra $400 fee for going through a supply chain is when it adds value.

A Laser sail is a commodity item - there's no tech support required for it and it does not require the complex shipping or handling that typically necessitates a supply chain.

Who wants to endorse and pay for the supply chain with respect to the sail? That means that every time a sailor buys a new sail he's being forced to give an extra $400 as a donation to support the supply chain? In the business world that's called an anti-competitve practice - to say the least.

Look, the proof is in the pudding. If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;

1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
2) Everyone would have the same sail
3) There would be no need for measuring.

Problem solved.

Instead, the legilative body has chosen to force the sailors to part with $400 extra dollars every time they buy a new sail to support what? The supply chain. For a commodity item that does not require a supply chain in the first place.

Maybe it's just me but I'm not going to vote with my hard dollars to support a supply chain. Here's an idea, why don't we take that $400 padding fee (let's call it what it really is) and give it to up and coming young sailors as a donation to support the sport? That's at least something I'd be willing to pony up the 'padding fee' for.

Instead of rewarding a company like Intensity - we punish them. And for what? Because they chose to make life better for sailors by offering a sail for $400 less on a $600 dollar purchase!!

America, as a country, was built on just that kind of innovation and customer-driven approach. Normally that kind of behavior gets rewarded, but remember, the Laser world is actually Bizarre-O world where the standard laws of business don't apply.

You might want to read this and the rest of that thread: http://www.laserforum.org/showpost.php?p=132218&postcount=9. SFBAYLaser is the NA class president.
 
One place to start to make racing cheaper is to ban the rolled sails. Since they are SMODs one could simply decide that the sails must be supplied folded. Then you may roll afterwards if you prefer to do so.
 
It takes about an hour to measure a sail, so it's not feasible to measure sails at the regatta venues. In most classes where sail measurement occurs, the measurers actually charge for their time. How much do tradesmen charge again for visiting?I look forward to the gravy train it should be quite profitable for me in a class like the lasers.

As an aside, it's my understanding that sail measurement already occurs within the sail lofts of Hyde and North, it's one of the costs built into the sail. How much measurement occurs, I have no idea. Quite a few other Olympic classes are considering moving to in-house measurement.

Typically at regattas where measuring occurs, 50-70% of boats fail in the unrigged state, mostly due to batten length (which has improved in the last 18 months). But we also get significant numbers of radial bottom section sleeves incorrectly placed (Aus-NZ problem), rudder angle issues, hiking straps with two loops aft, plus many other problems in small numbers, all are problems with supplier quality. On top of this we have competitors failing to place sail numbers correctly, attempting to use bent spars, failure to indentify their boats as per the safety regulations of Yachting Australia, tape around the centreboard case, and quite a few others. In the rigged state, we have another 20-40% of boats fail measurement; the location of the shock cord associated with the outhaul is a big source of failure, a pulley being used instead of the fairlead on the end of the boom, no mast retaining line etc. It is extremely rare that a boat will go through measurement fully and not need to alter some aspect to make the boat comply with the Class Rules.

It's worth noting that usually I'm measuring boats from competitors who are used to being measured, so you'd think they would take the time to make sure that their boats measured, often Olympic aspirants, I'm rarely meeting up with boats from Hicksville owned by a guy that has never raced a major regatta before.

I think it's extremely naive to believe that self policing etc will work. The average competitor or even Olympic aspirants do not pick up the class rules and then check whether their boat complies. The only time they check the class rules is when they are looking for an advantage. They assume that what they were told by someone down at their club or even their National Coach is a legal way to rig the boat is actually legal.
 
Why not go this route;

If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;

1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
2) Everyone would have the same sail
3) There would be no need for measuring.

Problem solved.
 
Why not go this route;

If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;

1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
2) Everyone would have the same sail
3) There would be no need for measuring.

Problem solved.

If I went to buy this sail from my local dealer in Aus what would he charge me for it? $200 for the sail, $50 for shipping and then their markup so by selling the intensity sail via a dealer you would pay at least $450 US.

That is removing one step in the supply chain only, the local manufacturer of lasers.

Yes the sail is expensive but if you allow people to go to any sailmaker they choose for a new "Laser" sail the class will no longer be one design.

Slight differences in luff curve, seam tapering, different fabrics will all be taken advantage of to make sails perform differently. None of these changes would be measurable as the sail would need to be unstitched to even get an idea of how it was constructed.

Yes, it would be nice to be able to have sail made for your weight and even set up for particular combination's of top and bottom and sections (yes it would happen) but where would it end. Sails in a extremely competitive class such as Lasers would quickly evolve within the limit of the rules and prices would quickly spiral out of control.

Yes sure your local loft could knock you up a $200 buck special but the top guys will be using sails that have been developed and tweaked to such an extent that $600 will look cheap, and you know you will have to get one to be competitive.





I have used an Intensity sail by the way and it is a powerhouse of a sail in big breeze. I found that it had great height and the top of the sail in particular would nicely blade off creating little drag. Gusts would hit and the upper part of the sail was so flat with draft so well forward that it was like sailing with a large skiff sail or cat sail. I wouldn't like to race against someone using one in overpowered conditions. Much stiffer fabric for similar weight and quite a different cut.
I dont use one for training myself as it is just too different. Maybe if your new to the class and are doing lots of general boat handling practice it could be useful but even then when you start to develop a good feel for the boat you need to sail with a sail that loads up the leech and puts more load on the tiller because thats what your going to be racing with.


Just imagine what you could do if you went out of your way to make a faster sail.
 
Let's not change the subject and then threaten the end of the world.

The contest to make an appropriate sail can easily end with one supplier being awarded the contract..

Regardless. For the last 20 years I have been asking the same simple question.

How come Haarstick was able top buy off the shelf 3.8 oz material from Bainbridge and produce consistent longer lasting sails then those made with whatever cloth North has been using??

And

Why is there any difference between the North and Hyde sails???

and


My two most recently purchased North sails are more than an inch different is size on luff length and foot length.

Is North really that incompetent??

Do North's J-22 sails vary that wildly??

Seriously. The brand new main I bought for the Masters North Americans in Austin a couple years back is way smaller than the sail I broke out for the 2009 Masters worlds.

I just came home and rigged my boat for the Wednesday night races and I had to retie all my lines so I could ease the outhaul and cunningham.

If I made keels that were an inch different in chord length a wouldn't have any customers.

I bet if you yank out fifteen of those $49.95 tents at the Walmart there is better consistency than an inch and guess which cloth structure is trickier to sew together??
The $49.95 tent has window flaps, webbing tabs, a floor, reinforcements around lots of places, poles, stakes, zippers, screens...and you can buy a dozen for the price of one Laser sail.

This Laser sail pricing is total non sense. Look at a sleeping bag and tehn look at a laser sail. Which one should be more expensive??

You can purchase entire matresses and recliners and couches for less than a Laser sail.

Laser sails ought to sell for $50.

In fact, if there is a problem with making $50 Laser sails, we pought to redefine the class legal sail so it can easily cost $50.

The object of our game originally was to play sailboats without spending any more than necessary.

The object has been hijacked into, "Let's see how much money we can make supplying the Laser sailing game."

It is way past time to swing the pendulum back to the "who can do the best for least" side of the contest.
 
You brought up some great points. If a person measured 50 legal sales I wonder what the variance would be? Would the variance be greater or less then 50 Intensity sales?

Are the legal sales purposely made to not last as long? That's something I hadn't thought of. A steady stream of orders and re-orders with a $400 padding fee for each one. There's nothing like a recurring revenue stream...just ask Microsoft.

Maybe it's time the OEM took a different approach. If they maintained their monopoly on 'hard' parts such as the hull, the spars, the foils etc but changed their view on the 'soft' parts such as the sail. 'Soft' parts tend to be consumables and they should be reasonably priced. That helps to promote the sport and why punish someone who bought your product in the first place?

I believe the issue has been made WAY too complex to the point that people can no longer see the forest through the trees. It really could be this simple;

If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;

1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
2) Everyone would have the same sail
3) There would be no need for measuring.

Problem solved.

Of course, that's provided that Intensity sails have enough quality control built into them such that variance amongst their product is minimal.

But think of this too, Intensity's current low price is based on a certain volume of sales. What would happen to the $189 price point if they were awarded class legal status and could then supply the OEM and every person buying a Laser sail - as opposed to just the 'practice' sail market?

In the normal business world the price would decrease further yet due to a massive increase in volume.

How about this. If Intensity was awarded the contract and became class legal then they could sell their sails to the OEM dirt cheap (so that the OEM would still make good money) and Intensity could keep selling them to the public direct at the $189 price point.

Intensity should make more money then they do now because they are buying their materials in much larger quantities and hopefully automating the manufacturing process.

My point is that there's a million ways to skin the cat such that the end user doesn't have to pay a $400 surcharge because he wants to race. It's not rocket science - it's just a simple business solution. No-one needs to re-invent the wheel. There are wheels all over the place. They're just sitting there!

But we should not be forcing the end user to pay a $400 padding fee for a class legal sail when he can buy a better one for $189

If the issue is that everyone has to have the same sail, it's a no-brainer. Switch over to the Intensity sail. Everyone has to have one of those. That way everyone is even-stephen and no-one has to break out measuring devices. It's back to sailing skill.

That would make too much sense though, if that were to happen everyone would have sails that last longer and cost $400 less.

With respect to the poster from Australia wondering what the sail would cost him - it should be exactly the same - $189

I mean, when you boil it all down isn't it this simple?

Do you want to pay $600 for your Laser sail or $189 ?

Yet, I'm sure people will post up and explain why the $600 sail is the way to fly! :rolleyes:
 
I am all for cheaper sails but at what point would you stop. Most of the replica laser sails are already manufactured in China. Should the license to manufacture boats be also given to more builders, particularly builders located in China?

Should I be able to skip the dealer network entirely and just buy a laser online lets say from a Taiwan builder?

I understand your argument that more competition leads to better and lower priced product but where do you draw the line?

Seems that you are saying lets allow other sail makers to compete and we will all be winners but I think you will find the only way a cheap replica sail can be delivered so cheaply is because its a direct transaction between the importer/manufacturer and the customer.

Once ILCA gets involved and the dealer network gets involved the price of a replica sail wont be anywhere near $200.

You could make an argument that the whole manufacturing process be shifted to China and all boat sales could occur online.

I have complained about the cost of sails for many years and would like to see the price fall but as long as you have a dealer network to support I cant see how it can.


It would be great to buy a laser for 3k and do away with all the extra layers of transactions that occur. Be good for the class to be so cheap too but it is not going to happen. The only reason sails, boats or foils could be bought at a lower price is because of low labour rates etc in countries like China. Local manufacturers account for a significant part of the costs.
 
With respect to the poster from Australia wondering what the sail would cost him - it should be exactly the same - $189

Garbage. Obviously you haven't spent to much time buying items from overseas. You have international freight charges, taxes, duties, foreign currency exchange fees. Importing goods from overseas gets to be quite expensive. This adds about $US100 to the cost, so much for "it will cost the same". Read the threads of Americans complaining about the cost of the fibreglass boards which are so much more expensive than the Crompton boards, over here they are the same cost as the Crompton boards.

Doing away with the dealer network also means that there won't be new sails available at short notice. It takes 4-5 days by airfreight goods from the USA to Australia because they must pass through customs and quarantine inspections. So much for getting a replacement sail overnight because yours was lost in transit to the regatta.
 
Garbage. Obviously you haven't spent to much time buying items from overseas. You have international freight charges, taxes, duties, foreign currency exchange fees. Importing goods from overseas gets to be quite expensive. This adds about $US100 to the cost, so much for "it will cost the same". Read the threads of Americans complaining about the cost of the fibreglass boards which are so much more expensive than the Crompton boards, over here they are the same cost as the Crompton boards.

Doing away with the dealer network also means that there won't be new sails available at short notice. It takes 4-5 days by airfreight goods from the USA to Australia because they must pass through customs and quarantine inspections. So much for getting a replacement sail overnight because yours was lost in transit to the regatta.

Why the harsh language?

Why the misinformation? Both the Intensity and other "replica" sails and the class legal North and Hyde sails are currently being shipped, imported, taxed, sold for foreign currency etc. all over the world and the replicas run at roughly a third of the price of the legal ones, in NA and Europe.

The costs for distributing a large number of new legal (ex-replica) sails world-wide should not be higher than the costs for the current distribution. Why should it be? Anyway comparing the import of a single fiber glass board, shipped by DHL or whatever, to the distribution of an alternate sail is comparing apples to oranges.The same goes for your assumptions regarding dealer stocks.

I would agree it is a bad idea to bypass the local sailing stores. We should keep them alive. However, I don't see why the new class legal sail couldn't be distributed just like any other sailing product, like rope or clothing for instance, thru the existing dealer network - or like the currently legal sails are being distributed.

In fact here in Germany it is Laser Performance who are bypassing the local dealers. There is only one licensed dealer left in the whole country, located about 800 kms away from many sailors, roughly 300 kms from my pond. Most German sailors buy online.
 
---snip---
If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;

1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
2) Everyone would have the same sail
3) There would be no need for measuring.

Problem solved.


You need to read more of the other threads on this subject as you don't have a good grasp on the "legislating body" If you did, you need to include some additional steps:

.5) Convince the builder (and by extenstion, the dealers) that it's in the best interest of the class to stop making a (large) profit on the sail

Might as well stop right there, as the builder has little reason to do that right now and until they do, make sure you have a large supply of asprin to help with the headache from the wall banging.

*************************************************************
IMHO, we, the sailors/class members are much better off focusing on something a little more realistic which is pushing/demanding the class assoc/builders to give us a more durable sail. They can do that anytime they want (their past inaction speaks volumes though)
 
P.S. Laser Performance and the class have no problem with the new blocks apparently, a part of the boat that is not equal to the part that most of us are using, definetely not "one design", one that is distributed through the same dealer "network" and that has not been approved by the tech commity.

Ever since I've begun racing Lasers I have tried to understand this, why a strict OD class must be founded on a monopoly. Instead of a reasonable explanation I have come across a startling amount of misinformation that is being continually spread throughout the laser world and the Laser World, especially regarding the sails (the local dealer network, supposed quality issues on replicas, poorer labor standards, need for measurement, trade mark laws etc.). What is especially irritating is that it is spread by ILCA-members and officials.

Why is that so?
 
It is extremely rare that a boat will go through measurement fully and not need to alter some aspect to make the boat comply with the Class Rules.

Wow! Have to say I'm pretty surprised by this. At the recent Worlds in Halifax, I heard of very few boats having an issue. The team of measurers was very efficient, and worked their way through the boats thoroughly. I only heard of a couple of cases of infractions.
 
It seems this is an annual discussion... in my mind it comes down to this: included in the price of Class Legal sails (and other equipment) is the cost to support the infrastructure that has been built up to supply boats and parts worldwide, to support Laser sailing in general - directly through support of events and indirectly by supporting ILCA - AND, importantly, to provide just enough profit to those hands in the chain to motivate them to continue supporting our game. I'd think it would be hard to argue against the success of this program - 200,000 Lasers in 98 countries sounds like success in the sailing world to me.

For those advocating doing away with the dealer network, I'd offer that we have an example here and here on TLF of just what that might mean. Look at these threads and remember the story of how it became nearly impossible for South Americans to get boats, parts, sails, etc., after the builder down there went bankrupt - this in the modern internet era! The situation is still not perfect but LP has gone about re-establishing a dealer network throughout South America and it was reported at the World Council meeting, by the South American Vice Chairman, that the situation is definitely improving (though, to be fair, because a major issue is import duties from off-continent, their ideal solution involves a new South American based builder).

And we should also not forget that the local dealers are often the people who are supporting your local fleet and events, helping to make your sailing happen. For example, I was at a regatta last month where the dealer for the area drove over two hours with a parts van to make sure the event was supported. While he did sell line, parts, gloves, etc., it was the one sail he sold that put him over the top and made it worth his time to make the trip. If the builders do away with the dealers then events like this one will not get any support. Is that what we want?

The corollary of the above, of course, is that if we don't support our local dealers, like when we buy parts online and not through them, then WE (not the builders) will drive them out of business too.

Whatever your feeling about the all of the above, in the end the builders have the final say in how they distribute their products. I'd say it would be a long fight to get them to agree to let sailors buy sails directly from the manufacturer and bypass them and their network. So, in the end, I agree with 49208 that the best use of our energy right now is to focus on producing a better quality, more durable sail that doesn't change the game (ie is not significantly faster) and doesn't cost more. Much progress has been made on this project and the builders are currently evaluating two very promising candidates, including one from a different sailmaker (and I'm surprised that Fred didn't comment on one of the prototypes that was seen just before the Master Worlds in Glen Haven). I'm optimistic that we'll have more news on this by the end of the year.
 
P.S. Laser Performance and the class have no problem with the new blocks apparently, a part of the boat that is not equal to the part that most of us are using, definetely not "one design", one that is distributed through the same dealer "network" and that has not been approved by the tech commity.

The single difference between the Harken blocks and Holt-Allen blocks are that the former are ball bearing - there are no differences in dimentions, in particular how close you can get the boom to the deck. There appears to be no advantage to having them, certainly no difference was seen at the recently completed Master Worlds, where there were a mix of the two sets of blocks amongst boats.

This project was started years ago by Chip Johns at Vanguard in response to sailors whining to him about the cheap blocks on a Laser - "why can't we have real blocks?" So, this is an example of a sailor driven initiative that the builders followed through on.

The blocks were evaluated, in rapid prototype form, beginning some two years ago. They were tentatively approved by the World Council in Terrigal, in 2008, subject to verification of the production versions, which happened last Spring. As they are builder supplied, this was a change made to the Laser Construction Manual and not subject to a change in the Laser Class rules.

So, indeed, they are "approved by the tech committee".

Ever since I've begun racing Lasers I have tried to understand this, why a strict OD class must be founded on a monopoly. Instead of a reasonable explanation I have come across a startling amount of misinformation that is being continually spread throughout the laser world and the Laser World, especially regarding the sails (the local dealer network, supposed quality issues on replicas, poorer labor standards, need for measurement, trade mark laws etc.). What is especially irritating is that it is spread by ILCA-members and officials.

Why is that so?

I guess I'm unclear about what misinformation is being spread by ILCA officials.

The question of what does it mean to be a One Design Class deserves its own thread. The Laser Class takes a different approach from other classes where the aim is to produce, as much as possible, identical boats and make the racing a contest between sailors. This is the same philosophy adopted in several other classes, some examples are Byte, 29er, etc. In contrast, some One Design Classes, for example the Star, lay out the measurements that define the boat, spars, sails, etc., which allows for a certain amount of variation that can make a difference in the boat's speed (and US readers will no doubt be familiar with the huge expenditure made by the US Star Olympians in Qingdao who had specially built a rocket ship in under 5 knots but were enough off the pace in anything more that they didn't even make the medal race). In these classes the boat becomes personalized and, while its still mostly the sailors, it can be a bit about the boat too.

One result of the Laser Class philosophy is that I can travel anywhere in the world and jump into a Laser and its the same as the one I have at home. So, I can go to the Master Worlds and charter a boat and dream of winning (ok, in 3 more years, when I turn 55, I can dream of winning). In contrast, if I want to dream of winning the Star Worlds I better be prepared to ship my boat to the event. And have two brand new suits of sails ready for the regatta, since the first set will be toast by the halfway mark.

Personally, I don't buy into the monopoly argument. Yes, if you want to buy a Laser, parts and a sail you have to buy what is provided by the builder for your region. But to say that the builders aren't competing is to ignore the larger sailing market. So, ask yourself why you aren't sailing a Byte, Megabyte, Banshee, Force 5, Sunfish or one of a plethora of other singlehanded classes that have tried to unseat the Laser. At the end of the day the builders are supplying a good product for a reasonable price and people are buying it. It certainly doesn't hurt that we have the largest and strongest Class Association in the world, it doesn't hurt that most people in most areas sail Lasers but I'd argue that wouldn't be the case if the builders were not successfully competing against other available options.

And for sure if the Laser doesn't evolve with time, something will eventually come along that will be "better".
 
Tracy IIRC, the class needed to vote to approve the Clew Sleeve, even though it ended up being a builder supplied, but didn't need to vote on the blocks.

I'm unclear on the distinction here, can you elaborate?
 
Tracy IIRC, the class needed to vote to approve the Clew Sleeve, even though it ended up being a builder supplied, but didn't need to vote on the blocks.

I'm unclear on the distinction here, can you elaborate?

The difference here is that the Class Rules specified how the clew could be tied down to the boom (see 3(g)(i)) and needed to be modified to allow for another option. Similarly for the "new rigging" (though recall that we voted on the concept, not the actual wording of the rules in that case).

The boom blocks are not specified in the Class Rules, only in the LCM, so changing them doesn't require a modification to the Class Rules, or a vote.
 
In terms of "monopoly", I say this - the class and the builders need each other.

The builders need an active, growing class to provide a market for their product. What other class has 300 boats at its world champsionship? Maybe Sunfish and Optis.

Likewise the class (namely those sailing the boats) need a profitable builder (and dealers) who is motivated to supply a quality product. As was pointed out, look at the South America situation where nobody could buy boats or parts.

This symbiotic relationship requires does require that we pay a bit of a premium for parts. So how much is this worth when it comes to a new sail? Is it $50 to $100? Maybe.

Is it $400? Hell no. I think the situation with current class sail is jeopardizing the relationship between the builder and the class.
 
The single difference between the Harken blocks and Holt-Allen blocks ...
... As they are builder supplied, this was a change made to the Laser Construction Manual and not subject to a change in the Laser Class rules.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[/quote]
I guess I'm unclear about what misinformation is being spread by ILCA officials.
[/quote]

For example, in the Laser World a while back Heini Wellmann wrote that we could not allow other than builder supplied equipment to regattas for reasons of trade mark rights. That, in my view, is at best misleading. Because it supposes that other equipment would be sold under the name Laser. No one with a half a brain for our trade laws would do that and there is no reason why we, the sailors and ILCA members, must use products labeled Laser way - unless we want to. We might just as well race with XYC-branded gear. It's up to us, not about legal necessities. We can put anything on our boats that we like. As long as we agree on the same product or standard, it will still be one design. It might simply be another one.

Your reasons for having a strict one design class and fostering a strong builder make sense to me. I wish we had builder supplied or rental boats at smaller events throughout Europe. Just imagine to hop on train or plane to sail with your blade bag to sail, say, a regular Master's event. For instance we just had a guy from Vienna here who borrowed a boat. Great.

However, that does not mean we need to accept any price for the products offered by the builder, that an organisation representing almost 200.000 consumers can not negotiate, does it?

I agree that we should support our local dealers who take the time to show up at regattas. However, I doubt that happens often outside the U.S. With one supplier in Germany and none in South America, how could one hope for such a service? On the contrary, there are several dealers who regularily show up at Finn regattas for instance, without a monopoly builder and supply chain.

Basically I agree with torrid that the relationship is not a healthy one at the moment. If the dealers in Europe can afford to lower the regular price of "the" sail by almost 20 percent for no apparent reason, it seems the margin was more than enough. If I can get a main sail for a much larger dinghy custom made in Poland for the same money as a third world mass produced laser sail, something is way out of proportion.

Plus the damn things don't even last.
 
Garbage. Obviously you haven't spent to much time buying items from overseas. You have international freight charges, taxes, duties, foreign currency exchange fees. Importing goods from overseas gets to be quite expensive. This adds about $US100 to the cost, so much for "it will cost the same". Read the threads of Americans complaining about the cost of the fibreglass boards which are so much more expensive than the Crompton boards, over here they are the same cost as the Crompton boards.

OK, but you're missing the overall point that I was trying to make. So in your case, due to your chosen place of residence, the sail costs $289 - big deal. That's what you get for living where you do. You'd still be saving $311.00

If you want to save more, move next door to the sailmaker and get a tax number :D The point is, the cost of the sail is still $400 less - all things being equal.

Doing away with the dealer network also means that there won't be new sails available at short notice. It takes 4-5 days by airfreight goods from the USA to Australia because they must pass through customs and quarantine inspections. So much for getting a replacement sail overnight because yours was lost in transit to the regatta.

Why does a cheaper sail always equate to doing away with the entire dealer network which ultimately results in the Laser's complete and utter demise?

I mean, are those dealers entire operation dependant on the price of a sail?

I still say that a sail is a consumable item. It should be viewed as such and priced accordingly along the same lines as, well, lines :):D

IMHO, we, the sailors/class members are much better off focusing on something a little more realistic which is pushing/demanding the class assoc/builders to give us a more durable sail. They can do that anytime they want (their past inaction speaks volumes though)

It sounds to me like there's wisdom in that. There's also wisdom in the posts from people who view the price of a sail as supporting the 'trade' with their $$. I agree with both but still, $600 is a lot of money for many folks, and hey, it is a consumable item.

Can I touch on something here? With respect to the dealers it always seems that the viewpoint is always comprised of companys that only sell Lasers and Laser-related products. This is crazy. Let's use the automotive industry as an example as I'm very familiar with parts and the supply chain etc.

In the automotive trade the 'dealer' (in this case) is typically the aftermarket parts store. They sell millions of different products from thousands of different companies. All the common items are in stock and all the uncommon items typically get ordered in.

The automotive parts store does not base it's entire survival on whether or not they carry one specific part. They mitigate their risk by carrying thousands of product lines.

Now, maybe it's just me but I've never seen just a Laser dealer before. If that were the case, then sure, I guess their life would depend on whether or not they sold a sail. But that's not a business model that will typically sustain a seasonal business. This idea that the entire dealer network is going to self-destruct and implode the moment something happens to the price of a sail is, well, extreme.

The fact of the matter is that in the automotive industry if a parts store doesn't have it in stock they look it up in a catalog, quote a price and ETA, and then order it as required. If that parts store operated in an area of the world where there was hundreds of Laser sailors with even just a little regular demand, then they'd stock the parts pre-emptively for their customers because they know, sooner or later, it would sell.

But to continually suggest that the entire dealer network would fall apart if the Laser sail was cheaper is making a mountain out of a mole-hill. This comes back to deeper issues such as business practices at the OEM level and their parts distribution network. It also ultimately comes back to marketing.

If the OEM's want to sell more boats then the answer is simple - do more marketing. Stop basing so much of your business model on parts profit and start spreading the news.

I've never seen a Laser ad or promotion outside the sailing world. That's where the marketing should take place. There's a LOT more ways for the OEM to make more money by increasing sales (as opposed to sails) :D:eek::)

The fact of the matter is this - ANY boat/marine store should be able to be an authorized Laser distributor just by agreeing to keep their catalog on hand in case anyone wants a part or a boat. That's the way it works in the auto industry and there's no point in re-inventing the wheel. The auto industry is decades ahead in this respect, copy it - don't try to create something new when there's an existing model that's several thousand times better! We don't need to re-invent the wheel - there are wheels all over the place and they are just lying there waiting to be picked up. :D

In the auto industry the name of the game is to get a copy of your parts catalog into everyone's hand - whether it looks like they will order or not. That's how you build out your dealer network. You get everyone and their dog distributing your product - or, at least, giving them the ability such that you can walk into any parts store and order a part or even a new boat.

I'd like to go deeper yet and suggest something that I think is very revelatory. As mentioned earlier, I don't race! This means that I have a pretty unique view on Lasers and Laser sailing that seems to go against the grain because everything here tends to be viewed from a strictly racing viewpoint.

There is an enormous bias with respect to Lasers and racing. There's nothing inherently wrong with that other then that it comes at the cost of market expansion and Laser popularity. Why?

I submit to you that the key to market penetration and to building the 1,000,000th Laser is to focus not on racing but just on the general fun and healthy aspects of Laser sailing.

I covered a great deal of that in this post. I know it's long-winded (pardon the pun) but I cannot help but understand that the key to growing out the Laser fleet worldwide, and making it way more profitable for the OEM's lies in understanding, expanding, and getting across a lot of those points in that post to the general public.

With 200,000 boats of market penetration, spread out over what? 30 years? when viewed demographically, that's abysmal to say the least.

If the OEM's were stamping out boats left right and center (that being port, starboard and amidships :eek::D) there would be so much profit in the whole thing that making the sail cheaper would be a non-issue. The dealer network would be a non-issue. Laser would have, literally, thousands of dealers around the globe and they would be selling so many parts that they'd stock most all of them and make money on all of them. I'm talking about volume and I think we can all agree that the fleet needs to expand. Expansion is good. Expansion into the general public will only lead to more racers - if that's your thing. But it should not be the focus to the exclusion of the general public.

If you can, if you have time, please read that post linked above. There's just enough Bravado in it to make it interesting but it represents an entirely different view then one based solely on racing.

I firmly believe that the key to Laser growth will not be a de-emphasis on racing but a significant emphasis on the other aspects of the Laser coupled with marketing in the real world to non sailors. That's the untapped market and it's so big it makes the racing market look small by comparison.
 
Wow! Have to say I'm pretty surprised by this. At the recent Worlds in Halifax, I heard of very few boats having an issue. The team of measurers was very efficient, and worked their way through the boats thoroughly. I only heard of a couple of cases of infractions.

There are issue and there are issues, most take 30 seconds - 5 minute to fix, some involve the sailor purchasing new components or finding substitute equipment (usually spars). The few your here about are the ones that get the measurers in a flap and cause real issues.
 
For example, in the Laser World a while back Heini Wellmann wrote that we could not allow other than builder supplied equipment to regattas for reasons of trade mark rights. That, in my view, is at best misleading. Because it supposes that other equipment would be sold under the name Laser. No one with a half a brain for our trade laws would do that and there is no reason why we, the sailors and ILCA members, must use products labeled Laser way - unless we want to. We might just as well race with XYC-branded gear. It's up to us, not about legal necessities. We can put anything on our boats that we like. As long as we agree on the same product or standard, it will still be one design. It might simply be another one.

I need to re-read what Heini wrote but my recollection is that the issue he was trying to address was not the purchase of replica parts as a violation of the trade mark agreement but, rather, the cross territory sales that were occuring a few years ago. For example, some 4-5 years ago a container of boats from Australia was seized by Italian Customs agents at the direction of PSE as a violation of their trade mark agreement. This turns out to be a rather thorny issue and yet another example of something deserving its own thread.

Your reasons for having a strict one design class and fostering a strong builder make sense to me. I wish we had builder supplied or rental boats at smaller events throughout Europe. Just imagine to hop on train or plane to sail with your blade bag to sail, say, a regular Master's event. For instance we just had a guy from Vienna here who borrowed a boat. Great.

However, that does not mean we need to accept any price for the products offered by the builder, that an organization representing almost 200.000 consumers can not negotiate, does it?

I agree that we should support our local dealers who take the time to show up at regattas. However, I doubt that happens often outside the U.S. With one supplier in Germany and none in South America, how could one hope for such a service? On the contrary, there are several dealers who regularly show up at Finn regattas for instance, without a monopoly builder and supply chain.

Basically I agree with torrid that the relationship is not a healthy one at the moment. If the dealers in Europe can afford to lower the regular price of "the" sail by almost 20 percent for no apparent reason, it seems the margin was more than enough. If I can get a main sail for a much larger dinghy custom made in Poland for the same money as a third world mass produced laser sail, something is way out of proportion.

Plus the damn things don't even last.

Its not really my intention to defend the builders marketing policies - for sure it would be great to be able to go back to the days when I could afford to buy a new sail for every major event. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to have as realistic discussion as possible about the costs involved in Laser sailing, including recognizing that we do pay a bit of a premium for the quality of racing that we get. Of course, we really don't know how the builders set the prices they charge, nor do we know how much is pure profit and how much they can realistically cut without having to make it up somewhere else.

For example, its been put to me (from someone I believe has some understanding of what is going on) that the entire Laser pricing model is similar to the auto industry: undercut the price of the boat as much as possible to get as many boats out there as you can, then recover your margin by increasing the price for the parts. If that is the strategy, then maybe in this day and age their model is backwards?

Similarly, on the dealer side, we would need a dealer to open up to explain their side of the business. If I were a dealer I'm not sure I'd want to be opening up on an interent forum... so I can only offer that most work really hard and, at best, seem to be operating on pretty thin margins. So what we might think of as a huge profit margin on something like a sail may not translate into much when taken in the context of their entire business.

The solution everyone wants to point to is the internet but I'd say that works really only for items that can easily fit in a box and ship via FedEx/UPS and doesn't necessarily need to cross international borders. I'm not aware of this being a workable solution for buying the boat itself since, at least in the US, shipping costs are enormous for something as large and heavy as a boat over any reasonable distance. And the interim solution, if we assume the auto pricing model, of having dealers sell only boats and spars (say) and buy parts, including sails, direct off the internet, doesn't provide any (or much) incentive for the dealers.

Anyway, in the short term I'm hoping we'll get a better standard sail and help make us feel a bit better about their price.
 
Can I touch on something here? With respect to the dealers it always seems that the viewpoint is always comprised of companys that only sell Lasers and Laser-related products. This is crazy. Let's use the automotive industry as an example as I'm very familiar with parts and the supply chain etc.


For sure dealers sell more than just Lasers. But if they aren't making money with their Laser product line, what is their incentive to promote it?

Also, at the bottom of this page is an LP ad (or at least when I clicked on the page).
 
It seems this is an annual discussion...

Tracy, it is not an "annual" discussion, in reason it is a "continuing" story. :D
I asked ("here" ) for the results of the negotiations (as far as there are permitted openly to tell infos here) that have been mentioned in the Laser World Magazine of Dec 2008. And you gave the answer:
... I'm optimistic that we'll have more news on this by the end of the year.

Thanks, I'll be patient and wait till the end of 2009.

... and remember the story of how it became nearly impossible for South Americans to get boats, parts, sails, etc., after the builder down there went bankrupt - this in the modern internet era! The situation is still not perfect but LP has gone about re-establishing a dealer network throughout South America and it was reported at the World Council meeting, by the South American Vice Chairman, that the situation is definitely improving (though, to be fair, because a major issue is import duties from off-continent, their ideal solution involves a new South American based builder). ...

Tracy, with all respect to you, but in is not the full truth. I am not the attorney of South Amarican Laserites (they are clever enough to have their own good attorneys) but, I did got additional informations in that LP-managers did made an unacceptable offer about the future prize for a new Laser at South America. The Marketing Managers of LaserPerformance Ltd. (LP) are from "1st world" and only have the target to earn maximum profit for Devin Kelly (CEO of LP) and the shareholders of Garvel-Securities Industries (or better to say: the shy unknown and hidden real owners of LP Ltd., behind the curtains) he is liable to.
At South America, the contrasts between some very-very rich people and the big 99% rest of very poor people there couldn't be bigger, but the LP managers not have been able to be aware to this inside of their concrete-heads. Paying nearly the same prize like f.e. George at Vancouver/Portland or Scott from Maine have (by license-contract to LP) to claim of their customers is definitely impossible to pay f.e. for a common medical doctor (working hard every day and night at f.e. a hospital) somewhere at Buneos Aires (or elsewhere at South America) and earning: translated only 500 US$ each month. ...

To the otherside:
1.: South American pro-Laserites often are in top10 positions of the ISAF world ranking list (examples: Scheidt, Romero, Alsogaray, Del_Solar and others)
2.: The Laser at South America, in non-profesional sailing, is a very-very important medium/vehilce in the honorable work to bring poor young fallen inhabitant, living in "Farvelas", away from drugs and crime.

LP Managers just don't care about this important social aspects, but for their profit-target only, their boss Devin Kelly did give them as the minimum limit, is my own opinion.

So, the best solution to keep the prize for a Laser low again is: to build her in future again somewhere in South America.

In this affairs about South America "our" International Class President, Heini Wellman, really did cut a bad figure in that negotiations, all I did hear about. In reaction he was kidded in a TLF-thead and the editor of ths did apologize himself later openly for this kiddings about Heini and Jeff M. For his incompetence way Mr. Wellman did handle the complete South American affair (and in my opinion: also his stupid "secret" interfering into our national Laser class politics in 2008 at GER), I would like to imaginary cast him into our tiny lake from one of our small harbor landig stages ... if he would be here, where I live. But, his luck is, he isn't here and from my side, promised, sure we both never meet in our live.

However:
At GER we already successful vote "with our foots and our small wallets and our internet-accounts" against the prizing/marketing-strategy of LP and LP's reaction to this was: Here at GER (and the nations in our neighborhood) the former prize for a folded Hyde Standard (no additional sailbattens, no sailnumbers) was officially 575,- Euro (846 US$). In early 2009 the prize rised down to about officially now 419,- Euro (616 US$) in reason not much such sails have been sold here till the end of 2008, is the hearsay. Its a good sign for a better future. I hope the prize for the kit of the new blocks do in future rise down, too. They are definitely to expensive here (146 US$ / 99 Euro) and several of GER Laserites go and buy them outside of Europe in the moment.


Beside of this:
Tracy, if the Masters Worlds ever happen at "Rio De La Plata" (Buenos Aires or Montevideo) we both will be "dr Loser"s best guests, together we drink some delicious cups of hot mate-tea and sure race against each other there, probably in the same fleet.

Cheers and
Have Fun

Lu
 

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