Velocitek (sp?) Legal? Can't be...

Rob B

Well-Known Member
A couple of guys at my club are showing up with these new fangled velositek, velocitek, whatever GPS thingys on their deck where the compass is usualy mounted. I say there is no way these things are legal.

You can plug in the poistion of the RC boat, pin position and the device has a count down and tells you your position from the line, (among many other things like course vmg and the like).

I was asked to buy one and I say no way. That thing has to be illegal!

Guys tells me they used them at MWE and no one said anything to them, (but they finished last and dead last so I imagine they could have run outboards and no one would have said anything to them).

Anyway I want to confirm my thinking that it is illegal to even have these mounted on the boat, turned on or not.

Thoughts?
 
Well, the results speak for themselves i guess. Looks like you saved some greenbacks. I have a starter watch and two eyes so I know where I am on the course. Perhaps they're suffereing from Xbox syndrome, where life is not real unless viewed on an expensive screen?
 
I've always wanted one for training, as you can get one that will tell you your boatspeed, which would be very handy! But I believe that a Velocitek :http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d291000/e290034.asp

and Tacktick Micro are currently illegal
http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d291000/e290420.asp

I think the Finn is trying to make a move toward digital compass, but I am unsure as to their progress. And I know in 49ers, and 470's they are allowed to use them. I would love to use a Velocitek to know my speed, it can't be stressed how useful it is. It has compass, VMG, knotmeter and timer. Where as the Tacktick does not have the knotmeter, but does have a screen for each tack, which is very nice. This is one more rule that I wish could be changed in the Laser Class.


*Note, the SC10, by Velocitek is Only $249, cheaper than their SC-1, but the SC10 only does real time VMG, max speed recall, and real time speed, but it is currently sold out. Most people go for the SC-1, because having a timer is better for racing.
http://www.velocitekspeed.com/products.php
 
Well, the results speak for themselves i guess. Looks like you saved some greenbacks. I have a starter watch and two eyes so I know where I am on the course. Perhaps they're suffereing from Xbox syndrome, where life is not real unless viewed on an expensive screen?

I see a huge, unfair advantage with the starting line thing and having a vmg source, (other than your eyes and regular/non-digital compass).

You know you're doing the right thing when you are passing boats and you've screwed up when boats have passed you.

With all the the close boat to boat action who would have time to stare at a display anyway?

I hope we never go this way in the class. Once you open that door then we get into an arms race for gadgetry.
 
A couple of guys at my club are showing up with these new fangled velositek, velocitek, whatever GPS thingys on their deck where the compass is usualy mounted. I say there is no way these things are legal.

You can plug in the poistion of the RC boat, pin position and the device has a count down and tells you your position from the line, (among many other things like course vmg and the like).

I was asked to buy one and I say no way. That thing has to be illegal!

Guys tells me they used them at MWE and no one said anything to them, (but they finished last and dead last so I imagine they could have run outboards and no one would have said anything to them).

Anyway I want to confirm my thinking that it is illegal to even have these mounted on the boat, turned on or not.

Thoughts?

Technically, a GPS is an electronic compass so this falls under rule 22.
 
Technically, a GPS is an electronic compass so this falls under rule 22.

The Velocitek also provides other functions that are not specifically allowed under the class rules and is therefore even more illegal than a simple electronic compass would be.

That said, I don't see a good reason why a simple electronic compass and timer combo like the Tacktick Micro (~$500) shouldn't be considered as a possible addition to the allowable compasses. That's about twice as expensive as an analog compass, (~$289) but the Tacktick includes a timer, so you wouldn't need to strap a watch to your mast (another $100).
 
Is a velocitek considered a GPS if all if does is track your speed, vmg, and do timing? I always thought of a GPS to be a navigational aid, to help you get from point to point, as in a car GPS.

Note: In the rules it says you are not allowed to use a digital compass.
 
Is a velocitek considered a GPS if all if does is track your speed, vmg, and do timing? I always thought of a GPS to be a navigational aid, to help you get from point to point, as in a car GPS.

Note: In the rules it says you are not allowed to use a digital compass.

No, rule 22 says "Electronic and digital compasses are prohibited," see page 37 of the 2008 rule book.
 
No, rule 22 says "Electronic and digital compasses are prohibited," see page 37 of the 2008 rule book.

What about the S10 version, this one does not include a compass, so is it a GPS, and verboten?

http://www.velocitekspeed.com/products.php

I see page 37 where it says no digital compasses allowed, but it does not say anything about GPS's, or things that track speed, vmg, and a timer combined. So as usual one must assume it's illegal?
 
What about the S10 version, this one does not include a compass, so is it a GPS, and verboten?

http://www.velocitekspeed.com/products.php

I see page 37 where it says no digital compasses allowed, but it does not say anything about GPS's, or things that track speed, vmg, and a timer combined. So as usual one must assume it's illegal?

No Ross, you cannot mount one of these devices on your boat and go racing under the current Class Rules. Compasses are specifically "authorised" (gad it hurt to type that "s") as an alteration of the fundamental rule. Other electronic devices are not.

Can we end this now?
 
Of course.

Just trying to make it as clear and specific as possible for everyone. Didn't mean to harass you Tracy, sorry about that.
 
Is a velocitek considered a GPS if all if does is track your speed, vmg, and do timing? I always thought of a GPS to be a navigational aid, to help you get from point to point, as in a car GPS.

It tracks your speed and VMG by tracking your position using global positioning technology, so it's a GPS. And, it can produce tracks of your position.
 
But you have to hook it up to a computer to see said tracks, you can't see them on the course while sailing.

Just saying.

I don't really consider it a REAL full fledged GPS, in the sense that a Garmin is a GPS.
 
But you have to hook it up to a computer to see said tracks, you can't see them on the course while sailing.

Just saying.

I don't really consider it a REAL full fledged GPS, in the sense that a Garmin is a GPS.

It has to be a full fledged GPS to do what it does as far as VMG and speed tracking (and compass too, since it gets that data from movement tracked by GPS satellites too). The fact that it doesn't display a road map and tell you how to get to the nearest Starbucks doesn't make any difference. A Garmin GPS and the Velocitek are both GPS systems designed for different purposes.
 
Just stating my opinion.

Is there something that ticks inside you saying that you have to have the last word, and win every argument?
 
...
I see page 37 where it says no digital compasses allowed, but it does not say anything about GPS's, or things that track speed, vmg, and a timer combined. So as usual one must assume it's illegal?...

Ross you better make it a habit, to read the rules this way: If "it" is definitely permitted by the rules, " "it" is allowed to use". If "it" is 'not' definitely mentioned as allowd -> "it" is prohibited to use during a race.

I guess, Tracy, you did told us, sometime in the past here at TLF, one may use a wrist-watch, that has a very simple electronic-compass-functionality at races, lower than the major competitions (as long as the RC and all other competitors do not have anything against it and Mr. Michon is far away, of course). Is this correct also in 2008+?

Those electronic compasses at wrist-watches are not very helpful to locate wind shifts, but most of the modern wrist-watches for sailing in our days already come with an e-compass and to spend the extra money, only to have a "rules-legal racing wrist-watch without an e-compass", is not very good in our days, I think. F.e. a non e-compass like the Nexus/Silva 103R works very-very good to recognize also small wind-shifts (if one has the correct technique, to read precise those wind shifts with the Nexus/Silva of course ;) ;) ). The big advantage of a "non-e-compass" is: they do not need a battery...

Ciao
LooserLu
 
Ross you better make it a habit, to read the rules this way: If "it" is definitely permitted by the rules, " "it" is allowed to use". If "it" is 'not' definitely mentioned as allowd -> "it" is prohibited to use during a race.


That is how I currently read the rules. I figure it is better for me to ask the questions for everyone else's benefit, not only for my own. But if you guys don't want me to help and ask questions, and answer other peoples questions thats fine. I'll just post on my campaign thread, and leave you guys alone, let me know.
 
That is how I currently read the rules. I figure it is better for me to ask the questions for everyone else's benefit, not only for my own. But if you guys don't want me to help and ask questions, and answer other peoples questions thats fine. I'll just post on my campaign thread, and leave you guys alone, let me know.

Ross, you probably may know me better from the most of my 600+ posts here at TLF. There's nothing personal against you at my reply above (and nothing behind the lines), but in the same way like you, I tell my personal experience here, too. Ross, we have a saying at GER (comes from GER-Soccer ... ... ): "Halte den Ball immer schön flach." ;)
Ciao
LooserLu
 
I'd say the function that allows you to program the location of the starting line into the device and it tells you where you are in relation to the line is specifically GPS driven and there to fore and unfair cheater pants type of device!
 
Cheater or not this is the sort of technology that should be on the boat. If you can't afford the $250 you should move down to a sunfish.

The Laser needs

1) New sail
2)New Blocks
3)Electronics of our choice.
 
I'd say the function that allows you to program the location of the starting line into the device and it tells you where you are in relation to the line is specifically GPS driven and there to fore and unfair cheater pants type of device!
Agreed, you do not need a fancy pants gps dohicky to sail a laser if you want one so bad sail yachts.
 
Cheater or not this is the sort of technology that should be on the boat. If you can't afford the $250 you should move down to a sunfish.

The Laser needs

1) New sail
2)New Blocks
3)Electronics of our choice.


4. New carbon wing mast. (but thats just me..)
5. A boom that will accept a footed mainsail, so we can do away with these clew straps


I could also think of some other minor rules changes I would like to make, most of which have been posted here, if your brave enough to look!
 
Cheater or not this is the sort of technology that should be on the boat. If you can't afford the $250 you should move down to a sunfish.

The Laser needs

1) New sail
2)New Blocks
3)Electronics of our choice.

4. New carbon wing mast. (but thats just me..)
5. A boom that will accept a footed mainsail, so we can do away with these clew straps
6. New hull shape
7. trapeze
 
4. New carbon wing mast. (but thats just me..)
5. A boom that will accept a footed mainsail, so we can do away with these clew straps


I could also think of some other minor rules changes I would like to make, most of which have been posted here, if your brave enough to look!

I've already experienced the "arms race" with my J24 and J22, (not nearly as bad on the 22). If you need to spend money I'm sure there is a Farr40 somewhere nearby with you name all over it.

That said, the sail change for the laser is coming only to extend the life of the product as are the blocks and radial carbon top sections.

If you want to see what hi-tech gadgetry does to a dingy class just look at the Finn, 470 and a few others. In contrast look at the enormous success of the laser as it is. Opening the rule book to loose interpretations on electronics, carbon spars and other costly modern marvels and you will witness the decline of the class.

I've stated this opinion until I'm blue in the face. I'm done now.
 
But think of all the fuss it would raise you've seen what minor things people bring up that turn into four page long arguments think of all those new changes. It would turn the laser world upside down and shake it repeatedly.
 
But think of all the fuss it would raise you've seen what minor things people bring up that turn into four page long arguments think of all those new changes. It would turn the laser world upside down and shake it repeatedly.

Why do you think it needs this?

BTW, have you joined the class yet?;)
 
You are all nuts - most I guess is tongue in cheek to take the mickey out of Ross B, it won't work! He is an American College Kid - they generally don't get Irony!

Ross you have stated previously that you are aiming for a Finn but are not yet big enough. Maybe you should consider the OK, designed as a Finn trainer, hulls certainly allow epoxy and probably carbon. The mast is carbon (I think) and certainly they set great store by adjusting the rake and the internal fit out is completely optional. You would get your wish for a footed main, though I'd allow you one on the Laser, as I'm sure it would be slower. I suspect that you would miss out on electronics, as I doubt they are allowed. As to electronics I'm surprised you quote dinghy classes being allowed Velocitek as I didn't think any classes allowed GPS for racing. I use a Tacktik in my other boat, as it is allowed and definitely easier to pick the size of shifts (not better just easier). Given the choice I would ban them from this class too, nothing to do with cost I have one and I can afford it, but because its easier and thus reduces the skill.

Finally IMHO you should have left Tracy with the last word because he spoke with authority, he was right (fact not opinion) and he made sense (opinion not fact).
 
Thats ok GBR. Unfortunately the OK class is non existant here in the US, I would have better luck with an Aussie 18 singlehanded.

I would love to campaign a Finn, when I get the money, and am out of college, and the right weight. But right now the Laser is where it's at for me, so you guys can stop recommending me other boats, as I will not switching full time at any point in the near future.

And while I know we all have differing views on where the Laser should head, you guys all know that I have an evolutionary view, and I really only want the Laser to be the best it could be. I understand the rules of the boat and the class, and I understand the design principal. And I know that change takes time, and that the committee has only the best intentions for the class. So lets hope the next upcoming years are good ones!


*Just because I'm an American college student, does not mean I do not understand Irony or Sarcasm. Most of us have a fully working knowledge of it and use it daily by the end of freshman year, of high school! By the time we've graduated college, we've pretty much majored in it. But sometimes it is hard to convey over the Internets.
 
You are all nuts - most I guess is tongue in cheek to take the mickey out of Ross B, it won't work! He is an American College Kid - they generally don't get Irony!

Ross B says he gets irony, but he thinks it has a steam setting. :p

We love ya', Ross. ;)
 
You know the old adage - it's not illegal until you beat somebody and they protest you.

To me it's not the cost of an electronic unit such as this. I don't care if it costs $2.95 at Wal-Mart. This is just not what Laser sailing is all about. To become a good sailor, you need to keep your head out of the boat and learn to read the wind and the waves. Having a VMG indicator will only confirm something a good sailor already knows. I sail my Laser to get outside and enjoy life. I don't want it to become just another video game.
 
At the very leat a gps system would have tremendous value in training particularly where you don't have another boat to go against. I'm thinking in moderate conditions with steady breze where steering and flat out busting your ass hiking isn't the most important thing. Would be pretty easy to dial in the right combo of outhaul cunningham and vang which as someone just getting into the boat after 15+ years I'm still fumbling with...
 

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