Class legal improvement questions

powergroove

Member
In the rules it states that the only approved vang upgrade is the Harken block with a picture showing an exact model. Is this the only system that we can use? I rigged mine with a standard Harken pivoting exit block and a couple of doubles with beckets. I didnt go beyond the max number of turns, so whats the scoop?
Also do you have to place the cleats for the downhaul and outhaul in a specific place to be class legal?
thirdly, can you attach blocks to the eye strap in front of the mast, or do you have to use the plate that is shown in the class rules pix? legal or not, or is it just showing approved plates to replace the eyestrap.

thanks again for the 411
 
thirdly, can you attach blocks to the eye strap in front of the mast, or do you have to use the plate that is shown in the class rules pix? legal or not, or is it just showing approved plates to replace the eyestrap.

thanks again for the 411

the bow eye?:cool:
 
no, the eye strap aft of the mast insertion hole or whatever that thingy's called...My old tired boat had an eye strap, newer boats may come with the plate standard, sorry, havent played with these lasers long enough to know all the information
 
if you have the old style, I beleive it has to stay that way, the line goes through it

but if you have the new style, the shiny plate, then two blocks attach to it
 
PG,

If your just starting out, don't want to spend the cash on replacing the fairlead at the base of the mast, and are not planning on racing in the worlds any time soon, you can tie two blocks to the eye in order to run the cunningham and the outhaul through.

Keep in mind that if you do do this, you will have to get the double cleat that fits into the same holes that the cam cleat (the one mid way between the leading edge of the CB and Mast) is placed. Otherwise, you've no way of cleating both the lines.

Matt
 
I think Harken vang is not the only brand allowed, You could purchase an "Holt" one the expenditure is a little lower (but don't forget that often efficiency is directly proportional to cost ;)).

At least if you don't want approach the new system you can upgrade your old 1:3 vang to 1:12 using a triple block plus a pair of singles... anyway you'll be in the soup when trimming the vang while hicking hard (...think about the old cleat block set)
 
My vang is rigged without the very expensive new vang hardware. I just used the old hardware and a couple of bullet blocks. The setup is 6:1 and works really well.
IMG_3708.jpg
 
It's basically this setup, but with a bullet block instead of the bottom pin on the boom block, and another bullet block instead of the sleeve. Look at my photo above.
VangRig-Shevy.gif

VangRig-Shevy2.gif

VangRig-Shevy3.gif
 
I have rerigged with Harken products, its just not the one in the the picture on the class rules pdf form. I plced 2 micro blocks on the eye strap behind the mast and run my downhaul and my outhaul thru these seperately. Then they run back to 2 different Harken cleats.
So my original questions was...
Does the Harken cleat HAVE to be the one pictured, because thats kind of what it reads, and as you guys have said, if it isnt written, then consider it illegal
Second , does my downhaul/outhaul cleat position have to be in an exact certain spot on the hull to be legal?
And, do I really have to have a plate on the hull to run the blocks for the DH/OH lines, or can I attach 2 blocks to the existing class legal eye strap. It seems silly that I would only be allowed to run a line thru the eye strap as Ross descibed in an earlier post if the class upgrade allows for 2 truning blocks there. Im not replacing the eye strap with a home made plate as another poster described, just adding blocks to an existing eye strap.
 
I have rerigged with Harken products, its just not the one in the the picture on the class rules pdf form. I plced 2 micro blocks on the eye strap behind the mast and run my downhaul and my outhaul thru these seperately. Then they run back to 2 different Harken cleats.
So my original questions was...
Does the Harken cleat HAVE to be the one pictured, because thats kind of what it reads, and as you guys have said, if it isnt written, then consider it illegal

You have to use one of three cleating blocks - the original vang, the new builder supplied Harken or the new builder supplied Holt vang. No other cleats or cleating blocks.

Second , does my downhaul/outhaul cleat position have to be in an exact certain spot on the hull to be legal?

Yes, the outhaul and cunn cleat have to be mounted on the builder supplied plastic base, which uses the existing screw holes that the original clam cleat used.

And, do I really have to have a plate on the hull to run the blocks for the DH/OH lines, or can I attach 2 blocks to the existing class legal eye strap. It seems silly that I would only be allowed to run a line thru the eye strap as Ross descibed in an earlier post if the class upgrade allows for 2 truning blocks there. Im not replacing the eye strap with a home made plate as another poster described, just adding blocks to an existing eye strap.

You are only allowed to attach the turning blocks to the builder supplied metal strap - The rules clearly state you can not attach them to the existing fairlead.

The class rules for the most part are pretty clear and easy to understand as far as rigging. http://www.laserinternational.org/rules/ilcarule.htm
 
Dear Powergroove,
1. You must use the vang as supplied by the builder.
2.Deck cleats of your choice must be mounted on the deck block supplied
by the builder.
3.Blocks at base of mast must be attached the the builder supplied fitting
that replaces the eye strap. JC
 
Im not sure if thats just absurd, bordering on exclusiveness, or a pocket lining ploy by someone, but that has sure gone beyond the premise of keeping it a "one design".
I guess you wont see me on the race course.
 
laser_parts_001.jpg


Mine(illegal?)

UKkit.jpg

Class legal

Whats the advantage?
Granted I will be ordering the base plate for the cleats, thats just nice, but to order the whole vang system to be legal is what Im having aproblem with. Someone slap me and tell me Im not making any sense....
 
It's the condundrum of laser sailing.

The rules are deliberately strict to prevent "deep pockets" sailors from creating expensive clever innovations within the rules to get a (temporary) advantage that all other sailors who wish to compete must ultimately adopt.

But these same rules cut both ways to prevent cost-cutting frugal sailors from innovating and "making do" with bargain basement improvements and parts obtained from the swap meet.

Pick your poison, but if you want to see what happens in the uncontrolled arena, look at the fashion in tillers and tiller extensions, which are mostly uncontrolled. A few frugal souls (me!) use the old wooden tiller with the cheapest aluminum extension they can buy. Many/most sailors lay down the big bucks for the fancy carbon fiber bits. In the long run, opening up the rules is proven NOT to save people money.

Practical advice: keep an eye on ebay and craigslist. Every now and again, someone will unload a class-legal-builder-supplied vang at a reasonable cost. I bought my holt-allen for 75 bucks. Until then, keep using your existing set up. No one's going to protest you for cost-cutting at any local or club competition. But you probably want to dot your i's and cross your t's when/if you're ready to step up to regional/national/continental competitions.
 
I guess I have been in a Formula class too long, but let me tell you about that class.
Hulls are being made by 4 manufacturers here in the states, a couple more in Europe where 100 boats at a regatta is typical. They can be of any shape, design, or configuration as long as they weigh 395#,and are 8.5 ft wide and 18 ft long.
Spars, mast booms spin poles are the same, as long as they are aluminum(cost saving) and are of certain lenghts and diameters. But you can get a wing mast or standard teardrop, doesnt matter.
Sails have to conform to certain specs, but any builder can build them.
Daggers/rudders can be of any shape but cant be carbon, andyone can build them.
At the last 2 F18 NA's the top ten had a representing of all manufacturers participating, not a single boat has a distinct advantage in any wind, nor does any sail shape, mast shape, hull shape seem to make any boat faster. You can add do dads and whataflicks all over the boat to make it easier to sail, and safer for crew and skipper, but you know what really matters in the end?
The loose nut on the tiller. Im not saying I want to come into the Lser class and change everything, Im just saying that opening up a few things but keeping the essential(sails, hulls, mast, foils) the same probably wouldnt increase any ones ability to beat anybody else, it sure doesnt in the F18 class.

just my .02 Flame away!
 
Im not saying I want to come into the Lser class and change everything, Im just saying that opening up a few things but keeping the essential(sails, hulls, mast, foils) the same probably wouldnt increase any ones ability to beat anybody else, it sure doesnt in the F18 class.

just my .02 Flame away!


join the club, I've been trying to get stuff done for awhile, but talkin here won't get ya far
 
Hey powergroove, are they Harken 16mm ball bearing blocks making up your vang? Have you tried that set up in heavy wind? I was under the impression that the loads in the vang can vary between 350-400kg max. At that load those little blocks would explode. The one at the boom end looks like a wire block which is fine.

Which reminds me... I need one of those.
 
Saw, the harken vang is made up of 16mm's, except for the one that leads to the cleat, dunno what that is
 
I have the harken vang. But the business end is something more than just 16mm blocks. Hey, if 16mm are fine then good news for me - DrLaser is wrong in that case. I've been looking for a replacement boom block and his recommendation is for some big gun hardware - check out his "designing custom systems" archive page.
 
Saw, try this, the Holt Allen 25mm High Tension block for the boom side of the vang, through APS is product # HA4993, and has a breaking strength of 1653 pounds, it's used in the UK a lot. I've been using it for awhile and I like it, also it does not have a becket, as the line passes through the block, its pretty sweet.
http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d261000/e260628.asp
 
Hey powergroove, are they Harken 16mm ball bearing blocks making up your vang? Have you tried that set up in heavy wind? I was under the impression that the loads in the vang can vary between 350-400kg max. At that load those little blocks would explode. The one at the boom end looks like a wire block which is fine.

Which reminds me... I need one of those.

16mm and micro blocks(22mm) Interesting enough, the 16mm have a max working loa of 250#'s and the 2's have a MWL of 200#'s. The more purchase you have, the less load on each block, as it is distributed among all blocks. With the configuration used by myself and the class legal one, the "theoretical" purchase added by using another 3:1 purchase on top of a 4:1 (mine) and 5:1 on the Laser specific vang exit block, multiplies the load giving you a "theoretical" 12:1 and 15:1 respectfully. Engineers go ahead, I know all this stuff is debated everyday, and Im no engineer, but thats what "they" say it is, Im just a repeater. My point is, the 3:1 system will have more load, but still probably not within max working loads Can anyone figure that load out?
I use esentially the same blocks on my F18 with a 16:1 downhaul that will easily break my mast(seen it) before it blows up the blocks. We play the downhaul in the puffs upwind, and downwind with the chute up, it REALLY makes a big difference depowering the sq top mainsail.

I'll let you know if they hold when its not 102 degrees with a blustery 1 kt wind around here.
 
Yawn. All this obsession with widgets and gizmos and little pulleys. It won't help you guys. You need more time in the boat. The more you practice the faster you will be. Right Rossums?
 
It's basically this setup, but with a bullet block instead of the bottom pin on the boom block, and another bullet block instead of the sleeve. Look at my photo above.
VangRig-Shevy.gif

VangRig-Shevy2.gif

VangRig-Shevy3.gif

Sailchris:

I was at my rigging shop today and was discussing your setup. Do you just use harken bullet blocks? The shop said that that setup may not be legal, but as I read the rules the extra blocks are legal. Roster seems to think it is legal.

http://roostersailing.com/articles/Info_Sheet_4_Laser_Rigging.html

Comments?

And while I am at it, I use the old outhaul system - around the mast and through two thimbles. Can I now put two block where the thimbles are?
 
Sailchris:

I was at my rigging shop today and was discussing your setup. Do you just use harken bullet blocks?

Yes, almost. I used Harken Micro Blocks.

The shop said that that setup may not be legal, but as I read the rules the extra blocks are legal. Roster seems to think it is legal.

http://roostersailing.com/articles/Info_Sheet_4_Laser_Rigging.html

Comments?

It is legal because the rules specifically allow it. The rules say: "The vang system shall be between the mast tang and the boom key fitting and shall be comprised of the vang cleat block, the vang key block, a maximum of two control lines, loops and/or 'Optional' blocks for additional purchase with a maximum of 7 'Turning Points'."

And while I am at it, I use the old outhaul system - around the mast and through two thimbles. Can I now put two block where the thimbles are?

Again, it is legal because the rules specifically allow it. The rules say: "The outhaul system shall consist of a maximum of two control lines, 'Optional' blocks or loops for purchase and a maximum of 6 'Turning Points'."
 
Whats the advantage?
Granted I will be ordering the base plate for the cleats, thats just nice, but to order the whole vang system to be legal is what Im having aproblem with. Someone slap me and tell me Im not making any sense....

Your vang system is not allowed under the rules. And what I don't understand is why you went to the trouble of designing your own non-standard vang system (and making more rivet holes in the mast to attach it) when your old vang blocks plus a couple of micro blocks would have been perfectly legal.
 
Your vang system is not allowed under the rules. And what I don't understand is why you went to the trouble of designing your own non-standard vang system (and making more rivet holes in the mast to attach it) when your old vang blocks plus a couple of micro blocks would have been perfectly legal.


I didnt really go to any trouble or spend any money on it, its what was laying around from other projects/boats, and it made sense (to me) to make it look like the approved vang. I can easily put together a vang like the picture above in the previous post for racing, and the holes, well, I hope the bottom section is sturdy enough for 2 holes. Would the 2 holes make it illegal too?

Im coming around, just takes me longer than most...Its a wonderful little boat, claas seems strong, and its a hell of lot easier to put together than my F18.
 
Would the 2 holes make it illegal too?

I don't think holes in the bottom section are illegal (except that, as usual if they aren't specifically allowed they are against the rules)...holes in the top section must be "permanently sealed with a rivet or similar to maintain the buoyancy of the mast." I assume this is for safety reasons.

class seems strong

When you have to limit the number of competitors at major open regattas to numbers in the 400's, I'd say that the class is strong.
 
Now you mention it, your bottom section of the mast is now illegal. The rules are secific about where things may be attached.
 

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