Class Politics Rule 42 a) = bull crap

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OliLaser

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[FONT=KDDJLA+Arial,Arial]42.2 Prohibited Actions
a) pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by trimming and releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartships body movement;

42.3 Exceptions
b) Except on a beat to windward, when surfing (rapidly accelerating down the leeward side of a wave) or planing is possible, the boat's crew may pull the sheet and the guy controlling any sail in order to initiate surfing or planing, but only once for each wave or gust of wind.

In planning conditions the sail can be pumped once for each wave. However the definition of a wave, or what constitutes a wave, is missing, also the definition of a gust is missing. If you own an anemometer you'll know the wind speed is never constant and that a gust or a(brief sudden increase) happens about once every millisecond or quicker. The way the rules are worded curently, in planing conditions pumping should be unlimited as it is impossible for the on water judges to prove that there is not a puff or that the little tiny ripple 'moving' your boat is not a wave.
Any thoughts? I will be using this defence next time a judge blows a whistle at me in 25 knots downwind for "pumping" what a joke.

Gust
A brief sudden increase in wind speed.

Wave
1. One of a series of ridges that moves across the surface of a liquid (especially across a large body of water).



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A few years ago I ran your thoughts by the international Judge team at a Laser world cham[pionships.
In addition to your comments I added, "You guys are mostly dealing with English as a second language. I know EXACTLY what the words mean and your interpretations are not in agreement with the English."

They say:
Waves are the big ones. The little ripples on top are just little ripples on top.

I say:
Gusts are obvious..They change the wind speed so that a person would say,"There is a gust of wind." Nobody calls every little change a gust. Thyey call little changes in velocity, "little changes in velocity."

having said that...

I love your style.

Rule 42 sucks!!

back when there was no damn stupid retarded restricting sit still so the old frail farts can keep up rule we had lots of laser regattas witrh over 100 boats.
CORK used to draw 300 boats. Annual North American salkes were alwyas over 10,000 new lasers.

Then some jerks decided that we were not ahving fun and changed the rules so the old and frail could compete with the hotshot young punks.

Dumbasses!!

And those who tolerate the restrictions on pumping ooching and rocking under the bullshit lie of "It wouldn't be racing anynmore" never sailed when IT WAS RACING!!!

Isn't it amazing that ..for example..ME..

I am an old fart i n his fifties. I cannot properly sail my Laser because people say the things I know how to do are too athletic and would make it impossible for others to compete.

Give me a break!!!

If we need to pussy down the physicality of the game to make folks more frial than a 55 year old fat guy competritive...we also need to quit calling it a sport and get the game the hell out of teh Olympics.

Rule 42 sucks!!!
 
Venting here (with crudity) has all the power of grafitti, but without the anonymity. Gouvernail, you just love to torch those bridges! And just when you paid off the old one. Building bridges, playing within the system, will get something done. But continue with these tiresome useless rants, if you must.
 
[FONT=KDDJLA+Arial,Arial] it is impossible for the on water judges to prove that there is not a puff or that the little tiny ripple 'moving' your boat is not a wave. [/FONT]
[FONT=KDDJLA+Arial,Arial]Any thoughts? [/FONT]

As far as i can gather from the many anecdotal examples published just about everywhere, it's not up to the judges to prove you broke the rule. It's up to you to prove you didn't. Take a look at this:
http://tinyurl.com/25q234
I put "legal" in quotes because that is what this discussion is all about - the clear division of legal vs not. Some of us read the rule as a very strict law, others look to the judges to control, others feel out the fleet and conform to the "playground rules".

I think that every Laser sailor needs to be able to sail under all three styles mentioned above:

Club racing tends to be very quiet with kinetic movement, and peer pressure is the rule. These races tend to be run under the strictest of peer law.

National level events, such as the 1998 Midwinters East, tend to have a Judge who makes his presence known, might make a few calls to set the tone (especially in the practice race), and generally keeps the top of the fleet in line. The Judge and the "norm" of the fleet will determine how much actual movement is tolerated. (Ian did an effective job of control at this event with very casual hints to the day's worse offenders on shore.)

Regional World qualifiers tend to have great US/Canadian sailors attend and fight for the top spots. In these events, sailors push the kinetic rules quite hard. I almost feel like this style regatta has the most diverse range of movements throughout the fleet. Judges at these events tend to avoid making calls, or focus largely on mark roundings and race management (that's really a guess).

World level (Dubai Worlds), and Olympic style regattas (SPA, pre-Olympics) tend to bring on the heavy hitter yellow flag Judges. I see movement escalate from the national events to these World events in general. The depth of the fleet seems to allow more movement, and the competitors seem happy to be judged fairly and closely. The competitors are EXPERT at identifying the Judge boat's location, and zeroing in on what the judges are calling. For example in Dubai, the Judges were extremely active on the starting line calling sculling and leech snapping. However downwind in the huge waves there were fairly leanient on their calls.


Peer pressure is a good point. Under such a system, gouvernail can use kinetics regardless of his age, if the RC agree. Old farts can choose not use kinetics if the RC agree.

It could be argued that gouvernail is an exceptional circumstnace and that 99% of old farts will prefer not to be "atheletic sailors" and unofficially influence any given RC. That argument can only be won by real life examples and not asssumption about what might/could happen owing to any commenters personal outlook on life.

Life is full of grey areas and politics. At 33 I can deal with that, even though I prefer a strict set of racing rules that is applied consistently.
 
Gouvernail, you just love to torch those bridges! And just when you paid off the old one.

Cool! Is there a good story with that? Come on governail, you've been outed! Spill the beans.

The last time i was told not to burn bridges, I replied that they just seem to burst into flame after I walk over them. Which was true, and as long as you're true to yourself you can't go wrong. If you must torch a bridge, it's most likely so the enemy can't use it to mount an attack later. Strategy!
 
The English language is quite clear and thus there is no definition necessary for what constitutes a wave (at least it is clear in language is the ISAF decide not to restrict their interpretation of the word).


Just for example, look on Dictionary.com and you will find a definition of wave a fluttering sign or signal made with the hand, a flag, etc. Everybody knows that, should you see somebody you raise one hand in the air and wave it at them. This is called waving or "a wave". Thus, if you can keep one hand free enough to wave at somebody (e.g. another competitor or a judge) you can then pump once. If you need to pump again you must first give them a wave (attract their attention, say hello or whatever motive - its the wave that's important.


English language rules and there are books with definitions called dictionaries. If the ISAF do not define what they mean then the standard language definitions must apply - and most people have a dictionary.


Ian
 
My coaches had always pushed kinetics as the way to sail a Laser. I havent really sailed many national regattas in a long time but have never been penalized for this. I guess until I do I wont really care...
 
Just for example, look on Dictionary.com and you will find a definition of wave a fluttering sign or signal made with the hand, a flag, etc. Everybody knows that, should you see somebody you raise one hand in the air and wave it at them. This is called waving or "a wave". Thus, if you can keep one hand free enough to wave at somebody (e.g. another competitor or a judge) you can then pump once. If you need to pump again you must first give them a wave (attract their attention, say hello or whatever motive - its the wave that's important.

haha good idea
 
Here's another one for Ross to add to his list of rule changes....

Do what the 470 class do, just make it a class rule that rule 42 shall not apply! Bring back the athletes! yay!
 
I want it to be like the Finn's when the wind reaches X windspeed and above, the RC can wave rule 42
 
it means when the wind reaches X speed, they drop rule 42, allowing you to go crazy
 
Now I am confused.

If they drop it in the water and then the wind dies - how do they fish it back out? Must have some sort of retrieval system on it?

And if in fishing it out, they create some waves, am I allowed to pump.

As George C used to say "SERENITY NOW!!!"

LOL;-)
 
Just an FYI, I believe CORK still draws 350, and the Laser Masters Worlds pre-registration is closed, because they hit the 350 limit 3 months before the event.

Al
 
here's a video on rule 42

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed2r8B9ViEg

some of it is pretty plain

one guy forgot to step his mast and rig so should be disqualified for being too stupid

other examples are borderline, and you'd want to have an RC that has sailed lasers with kinetics to pick them or it would be merely whim judgements all round.
 
Just to be clear:
I believe I am fighting the good fight. The kinetics rules are fundamentally flawed and harm the game I love.

I have been racing small boats for fifty seasons. I have won races at world championships and finished dead last in local beer can races.

My position about rule 42 is not generated by my ignorance....or maybe it is.

I believe a sailboat race is a contest to see who can most rapidly make a sailboat go around the course.

I do not believe we have created the ideal set of simple and easy to comprehend rules for that contest.

With rule 2 the sailboat race is:

A contest to see who can most rapidly make a sailboat go around the course while sorta kinda using physical moves and boat handling but not if those moves are the sort we can police like making your boat rock or yanking on your sails in certain situations unless of course you are about to surf and wouldn't otherwise be about to surf but cut it out if you are already surfing and if we don't think you can surf you just cheated anyway by trying, and you can tack really effectively but not too well and nothing you do is cheating unless somebody else catches you.

The rule is horrible and needs to be set aside until it is written properly enough to enhance rather then screw up our fun.
 
I have been racing small boats for fifty seasons.

Two score and ten?

The rule is horrible and needs to be set aside until it is written properly enough to enhance rather then screw up our fun.
Perhaps all they need to do is clarify what is acceptable for lasers?

Lots of the "cheat" motions look plain ugly. All that jerking and trying to hike like you're on a playground childs swing...

uglyness is in the eye of the beholder, but maybe the descriptions in rule 42.2 should be closer to the type in rule 42.3
 
Lots of the "cheat" motions look plain ugly.


And many are elegant, athletic, and difficult to execute with positive results.
Most sailors are not able to properly execute most of the difficult boat handling moves disparagingly referrred to as kinetics.
A well executed roll tack is a thing of beauty.
A properly timed pump or roll to scooy the boat onto a wave face is wonderful to watch.
I am a big guy. Lots of times I make it to weather marks ahead of the practiced coordinated sailors who skillfully sail past me on the first reach.
I miss the days when they were allowed to sail their boats entirely instead of with the brakes on.
The best guys used to jump all over the boat while yanking on the lines and throwing the mast back and forth.

I was certainly enough of a jock to throw more muscle at my boat than they were using on theirs.

I simply did not know how to sail as well so thye blew by.

Then for some reason, it was decided that joyfully throwing your boat all over the place while riding it at full speed was no longer a part of the game.

I don't believe it added to anybody's fun to have rules forcing us all to wallow in the water as perfectly surfable waves pass under our toys.

The sit still rules now say, if you cannot catch the wave on the first pump, you are not allowed to give chase to those who can.

If the only reason for missing a surfable wave was finesse, it would only be a no fun rule. Instead, for smaller folks who can't pull hard enough and big folks who simply need more energy than one pull can muster,the game has been taken away by the "you aren't the right size" rule.

I am not closed minded about having some rules about how hard and when you can yank your boat around.
My complaint is that the rule as currently applied to our game is not about maximizing the fun and enjoyment of the sailors.
The rule is about controlling the fleet and having an enforceable rule for controlling the fleet.

Do we go to the lake and rig our boats so we can have somebody control us? Or do we go sailing to have fun?

Is there some reason we have a rule that says, "If you yank on your mainsheet while planing, you will be thrown out of the regatta."???

If you yank on your mainsheet while planing, two things could happen.
1.It could help you sail a tiny bit faster and have more fun.
2. It could not.
and we WANT a rule about that??
 
I want it to be like the Finn's when the wind reaches X windspeed and above, the RC can wave rule 42

Can we make X = 10 knots? Basically so if there are whitecaps about, we can get a little more athletic?
That way at least we wont look like a windsurfer race if its light! :eek:
 
I agree on the roll tack issue: let us roll tack instead of stepping on the clutch half way through.

It looks good, it is good sailing, and it's faster.

Have you ever heard of a similar rule that says a golfer can only swing ten degrees past the point of contact with the ball?

Why is it no one is allowed to exit a tack faster than they entered it? It's not like someone will tack every 20 seconds and somehow blitz the fleet.

In the same way, arching the back past flat to bring the boat down should not be allowed. Neither should sliding inwards then outwards again after the tack has flattened out. I'm all for good form and the speed increases from good form. If we want to be athletes, let us incorporate form rules from the other olympic disciplines that are judged on form.

So much of laser sailing is taught by eye, that incorporating form into a rule shouldn't be complicated or excessive.

The idea of rules relating to windspeed is also a good idea. At 0-5 knots, a guy jerking mainsheet severly every five seconds downwind is ugly adn looks pathetic. The boat doesn't go much faster and the mast shakes.

But pumping the mainsheet in 20knots somehow looks like a powerful technique. The violence of the movement is absorbed into the speed of the boat - a balance of forces is reached.

Rules that support good form and technique are a step forward, I think.
 
Tree cutter tool wrote>>>
"Why is it no one is allowed to exit a tack faster than they entered it? It's not like someone will tack every 20 seconds and somehow blitz the fleet."

Well, yes. actually, in light wind, that can be a problem.

And somebody has to decide what is tacking for no reason but the kinetics of it and tacking for some other reason like a shift or covering the fleet or your legs hurt like hell.
 
If anyone tacked every 20secs up the full length of the upwind leg in light winds, I'd be scratching my head to come up with reasons that didn't include creating your own wind by kinetics. In heavier conditions I would just laugh and ignore it. They wouldn't win, that's for sure.

Someone will have to decide a whole lot of things if the rules are to improve, maybe it will be ross, maybe it will be you, but thought and decision shouldn't scare anyone too much.

I think that opening up the rules to allow any and all kinds of assistance other than wind over sails reduces the sport to a raft race, whereas well thought out improvements raises the level of the sport.
 
Sigh... yet another rule 42 sucks thread.

Did anybody bother to read the nice articles in the Spring TLS on rule 42?
 

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