Class Politics Thoughts on Pricing of class approved Sails.

Atlas

New Member
Thoughts on Pricing of class approved Sails.

This topic is starting to become a loud talking point around all levels of lasers sailors. At a meeting at our club, this topic was almost shut down straight away from people not wanting to even think about using a generic sail or illegal sail for simple club racing only.

Our reason for wanting to do this is to keep our expensive Class approved sails for offical races etc and use our less expensive sails on normal club days.
Alot of people are against this.

While I'm not on a mission to upset people, I would like to know some answers. Current Australian Prices for Class approved laser sails are $1025 and $850 respectively. Our U.S friends get theres alot cheaper Taxes aside. Now there's a generic option availbe which is not class approved but is very afforable.

It makes you wonder how much cost is in a sail really.

We are now at the point were Laser sails are becoming very expensive in a time when I personaly believe sailing is generally at a low point especially with the youth. Less poeple are learning to sail, clubs are shutting down.

I also believe we are preventing poeple from enjoying the sport. Having good equipment or a higher standard of equipment is out of reach.

While I don't want to degrade the class or change it in anyway, other options need to be looked at to keep the class strong in the future.

I understand that a proportion of the price of the offical laser sails sold goes to the ILCA, but no one can tell me how much and what its doing.....

I know it makes people angry to want to change the laser, all I want is a cheaper option to help out the batlers, and maybe get some of the older boats back on the water and put some life into them.

Yes you can always put a good second hand sail on an old boat, but new Generics are still cheaper.

Peoples thoughts please, maybe if we all asked questions, things might happen.
 
"While I'm not on a mission to upset people, I would like to know some answers. Current Australian Prices for Class approved laser sails are $1025 and $850 respectively. Our U.S friends get theres alot cheaper Taxes aside. Now there's a generic option availbe which is not class approved but is very afforable."

that doesent sound right....
An AUS sail in the US would cost $ 851.21 and $705.88.
Here a North goes for $530, and Hyde fro $620, from APS, prices went up.....

and I dont know about AUS/NZL, but it seems to me that club particpation is steady, but at times it does go in cycles, families have kids, or a washer and dryer break so you gotta take it easy, that kinda stuff, I havent been racing because of my wrist, but I will be back out there


but I fully agree with you, these shitty sails cost waaaaay to much, and certinly arent helping the class, 350 American sounds right or the quality of the cloth, and the length that they last
 
"While I'm not on a mission to upset people, I would like to know some answers. Current Australian Prices for Class approved laser sails are $1025 and $850 respectively. Our U.S friends get theres alot cheaper Taxes aside. Now there's a generic option availbe which is not class approved but is very afforable."

that doesent sound right....
An AUS sail in the US would cost $ 851.21 and $705.88.
Here a North goes for $530, and Hyde fro $620, from APS, fuck prices went up.....

and I dont know about AUS/NZL, but it seems to me that club particpation is steady, but at times it does go in cycles, families have kids, or a washer and dryer break so you gotta take it easy, that kinda stuff, I havent been racing because of my wrist, but I will be back out there


but I fully agree with you, these shitty sails cost waaaaay to much, and certinly arent helping the class, 350 American sounds right or the quality of the cloth, and the length that they last

Thoses prices are corect and you can check them on our local Australian Laser shop Web sites which will confirm that.
We are well aware of the US prices and the current exchange rate as well...

At least you can see what we have here.
 
ooooh right on, I just threw it into a currency converter, and thats what I dont
 
Using a generic sail at the club level seems to me to be a discussion that should be left at the club level. If you are wanting to know what other clubs are doing, that's a different story. The half dozen most participating Laser sailors in my fleet asked me what I thought (as fleet captain). Things are pretty laid back at my club. I thought generic was fine, because we already had a bunch of them from previous years from the instructional program floating around. Whats the diff--Intensity or some other no name? I don't want to keep people from sailing, especially in MY fleet! It ended up that 3 people bought Intensity sails, but those same 3 bought new Norths too. With the Intensity they can conserve their investment in the class legal sails. BTW, I bought an Intensity Radial and have sailed with it a couple of times. At my level of sailing (low), I can't tell any difference.
 
It makes you wonder how much cost is in a sail really.
I only know of the intensity sails (and the prize of those), as a sailmaker I can say that the prize of those sails are as low as it gets. I even have a hard time to understand how they make enough from selling those sails.
I guess it's possible if you make large volumes and cut the costs as much as possible though.
I figure the $200 an Intensity sail costs is a quite reasonable pize for a laser sail though, considering the huge volumes etc.

To sum things up, I have no clue how a lasersail can cost more than $400 =P
 
I don't want to keep people from sailing, especially in MY fleet! It ended up that 3 people bought Intensity sails, but those same 3 bought new Norths too. With the Intensity they can conserve their investment in the class legal sails. BTW, I bought an Intensity Radial and have sailed with it a couple of times. At my level of sailing (low), I can't tell any difference.

Thats the very point we are trying to push. I will buy an Intensity sail for all other sailing and inport a US Laser approved sail for Offical events . If Anything I would just like to see the prices dropped to a level affordable by all, and or an explanation of costs.
 
yea, we need to have it explained to us why they are so bloody expensive


and here in the US the price just went up, why on earth did that happen??
 
Thats the very point we are trying to push. I will buy an Intensity sail for all other sailing and inport a US Laser approved sail for Offical events . If Anything I would just like to see the prices dropped to a level affordable by all, and or an explanation of costs.

They just raised prices a little bit this year, so the market demand must be good enough that they don't feel the need to explain anything. It is a business. I don't understand why you think you will get an explanation or have any say in the pricing. Yeah, that would be nice if it happened, but it just seems like wishful thinking.
 
the Laser has always been "the people's boat" we sould know why things are so bloody expensive

hell, a centerboard is 450!, thats insane!
 
call yourself lucky Boathouse, I saw it for 3.42 in Carlsbad near SD the other day, and its 3.37 right by my house, every 2 weeks.....
 
It is a business. I don't understand why you think you will get an explanation or have any say in the pricing.
????

Well I just don't understand that statement. You must be able to replace your sail when you feel the need.
Good for you.

Alot of us can't. Not a Laser approved anyway.


Fuel here is $1.28 a litre....
Thats $4.86 a gallon.
 
It is a business. I don't understand why you think you will get an explanation or have any say in the pricing.
????

Well I just don't understand that statement. You must be able to replace your sail when you feel the need.
Good for you.
Alot of us can't. Not a Laser approved anyway.

No, I don't replace my sails as often as needed.

If you really want an explanation of pricing and quality of Laser sails, this is the wrong place to ask for it. The Laser Forum is a privately owned independent forum. It's a good place to blow off steam and share ideas. Once in a while the ILCA-NA president (SFBayLaser) checks in, but just because he wants to. If I were to ask about pricing and quality of sails, I'd write snail mail to the ILCA, in England. Write to the international board members to push for changes in the class, I would guess. Here you are just a gnat buzzing the wrong body. At least there you'd be buzzing the right one. But if you get enough gnats. . .

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the Boathouse was quoting the price of gas to point out that everything is expensive, not just Laser stuff.
 
Thoughts on Pricing of class approved Sails.


While I'm not on a mission to upset people, I would like to know some answers. Current Australian Prices for Class approved laser sails are $1025 and $850 respectively. Our U.S friends get theres alot cheaper Taxes aside. Now there's a generic option availbe which is not class approved but is very afforable.

It makes you wonder how much cost is in a sail really.

We are now at the point were Laser sails are becoming very expensive in a time when I personaly believe sailing is generally at a low point especially with the youth. Less poeple are learning to sail, clubs are shutting down.

I also believe we are preventing poeple from enjoying the sport. Having good equipment or a higher standard of equipment is out of reach.

You get my full sympathy with this one but I don't think it will change. I'm confident that the surcharge we pay on class approved sails doesn't go to pay for some individual's luxury yacht. If it goes back into the ILCA fund then I don't mind. Well funded classes have good regattas and C R A Z Y resale values.

I don't think that allowing numerous makers to manufacture our sails will actually drive prices down, I think it may have the opposite effect without the contributions to the class. One maker will always be seen as superior and people will be prepared to pay a premium for that sail. Then people will perceive that they cannot be competitive unless they pay for the expensive sail. (Look at an Opti price list!)

The way we've overcome this at a local level is to allow generics at club racing and preserve ILCA approved for out of town regattas. That way you can extend the life of the class sail many times over.

The country price argument is invalid. I'm a brit living in america and price differentials on all products are just amazing. For example, here, a new boat is $5,500, over in England, it's over $8,000? Go figure. It's not just boats though, laptops, bikes, food etc. I'm no economist but you can't compare apples with pears!? You could always call APS and have them ship one internationally although you'll have to pay import duty etc.

I'm going to revert to my original argument regarding the sail price. I don't think it's the price of our sails detracting from the sport of sailing, I think the Laser actually makes enormous contributions encouraging people to sail. I coach the junior team at my club, the only boat parents want to buy for their children is a Laser, whether it be 4.7, radial, full rig. This is simply driven by the resale value which to this day astounds me. That value is driven by the strength of the class on both a local and global scale. One of the reasons for that strength is the well funded class association.

To summarize, push your club at a local level to allow you to use generics. Covet your class sail, wrap it in cotton wool and reserve it a seat on the couch during the week when it's not in use...

T
 
If we all use an intensity for practice/club level and are able to extend the life of our class sails by 1-2 years that will drop the demand/reorders the class sail makers see and they will have to drop prices to generate sales.

Supply and demand folks. Let's stand together give Intensity some business and let North and Hyde sit on some inventory for a while.
 
North and Hyde are nothing but contract suppliers for the class approved builders. They won't have much inventory in house.

It would be the builders (who also determine the price you and I pay for sails and all the other class approved stuff) that would be sitting on the inventory. But since the sail doesn't change year to year, they will just scale back their purchases for the next buying period until inventory levels go back to where they want them.

Now, I'm guessing the owners of the class approved builders are in this to turn a profit :rolleyes: and since they have a monopoly on hulls, spars, blades, sails, etc.. and they see their bottom line shrinking because we aren't buying as many sails, do you think prices are going to go up... :eek:
 
It depends on how they run their business. Sell less, but make more on each sail or increase revenue and sell more, but make less on each sail. There is a balance. If you are used to selling 800 sails a year at 60% margin and then your sales drop to 500 sails a year at 60% margin you have made a lot less money on your bottom line. However, if you offset the demand decrease by dropping your price to 40% margin and see a sales bost to 1,000 units a year that's better than 500 sails at 60% margin.

The sails are the "razor blades or toner cartridges" to this product. Let's band together for a price reduction.

Can you imagine the rush of orders Vanguard would see if they dropped the sail price by just $100.00? $125.00?

SAVE YOUR CLASS SAIL. DO NOT BUY A NEW CLASS SAIL THIS YEAR. BUY AN INTENSITY AND USE IT AT ALL NON-CLASS APPROVED EVENTS.

If the class sail market drops only to the olympic campaigners for re-orders I guarantee we'll see a price reduction by Q3 of this year and at least by the first of 2008.

Spread the word. If we stand together we can drive change.
 
If we all use an intensity for practice/club level and are able to extend the life of our class sails by 1-2 years that will drop the demand/reorders the class sail makers see and they will have to drop prices to generate sales.

Supply and demand folks. Let's stand together give Intensity some business and let North and Hyde sit on some inventory for a while.


OR...they will raise the price to make up for the lost revenue. Realistically how many Laser sails do you think are sold per year? We are not talking Sony Playstations here. Do really really think there would be any effect whatsever if the volume was even cut in half? And under your marxist scenerio what do you think will happen to the price of Intensity sails? I think you should start hording Intensity sails because when they go out of business in say 1-2 years at least you will have some stashed away....
 
Your product does not sell so you reaise the price? You run a business is that what you do? In all retail goods that don't sell get marked down, put on the clearance rack and out the door. Product sitting on a shelf does not pay the bills. Inventory cost money. In the meantime Intensity is following the Wal-Mart philosphy. Get it out of China cheap and sell for less. Low margin, but cash flow. Better than high margin and no cash flow. Is that Marxist?? I dont' know how many class sails are sold, but it has to be more than the number of hulls they sell every year.

I would have no problem w/the $500.00 +USD price tag if the competitive life of the dang things lasted longer than a season.
 
It would be the builders (who also determine the price you and I pay for sails and all the other class approved stuff) :eek:


Wrong!!

You determine what you pay for stuff.

If you don't like the giving price the money to the seller, you don't buy.

Every single one of you who has bought a Laser or parts or sails for your Laser made a personal decision that the price was fair.

Further. KNow this.

If generic sails were 100% legalized for racing, the same people who buy Benydryl, Advil, Claritin, Bayer, Neosporin, Coke, Kelloggs Corn Flakes, Comet Cleanser, GE Silicone, Interlux 216 thinner, Budweiser water, and other Brand Name products, would still buy oficial Laser Builder supplied sails.
 
Wrong!!

You determine what you pay for stuff.

If you don't like the giving price the money to the seller, you don't buy.

Every single one of you who has bought a Laser or parts or sails for your Laser made a personal decision that the price was fair.

Thats a great point !:)

So is everybody happy with the prices for sails?

And would poeple like to see more boats on the water?
I would, and if there all sailing past me great!! Gives me more boats to chase and improve on.;)
 
Sounds like we are talking symantics here. I've said before (and have gotten tired of repeating it over and over) , the builder supplied items are priced on what the market will pay.

You wanna race in class events, your gonna pay.
 
Breaking news OptiParts (www.optistuff.com) are now selling non-class legal spars and booms. While pricing on the Masts are roughly they same, I am sure they will last twice as long as the Manufacturer supplied ones. BUT the booms are only $199 as compared to $270...this should make this class that much more affordable and should increase participation twofold. I am sure no one here will have a problem with anyone showing up with non class spars...(heavy on the sarcasm)
 
OK... Now I'm worried....

I mean, an intensity sail is easy to identify... it says it on it and doesn't have the button...

But the topmast? It's harder to notice that someone's not using a class legal spar in a race. As for the other bits, gudgeons, blades, bailers and so on that Optiparts are producing.. next time you buy a used boat you'll have to take all the parts off it to make sure that it's genuine??! Would you want to buy a Laser that's not a laser?

The world's gone mad!
 
It gets interesting. Just what percentage of a Laser could you have that is not actually a Laser. are we yet at the 50% illegal. Any 3rd party hulls available yet ?


Ian
 
for spars, look for the Laser approved sticker

That's cool for when you're buying a boat... not so cool when your lining up on the start line....?

What do you suggest we do regarding bailers, gudgeons, bow eyes, grab rails etc...?

And to the other point... A laser is not a laser if it doesn't conform to class regulations in my opinion... even if that means that a gudgeon is made by someone else...
 
I was talking to a few mates about this last night, I personaly don't want to see the boat changed in anyway, I think the rules work well.

I just want justification in prices, there to high. That is the single reason only. If its doing something good, there maybe very little issue.

Better prices makes it more affordable, puts more boats on the water, makes stronger fleets, increases the market, and there will be more demand and everybody wins.

If it means using another sail to get the message through then so be it, maybe it will sort out a few other quality problems as well.

But the whole thing won't make a difference if everybody is happy to hand over what ever they ask.

Another point on spars, and don't quote me as this was second hand information, however not uncommen to any of you I'm sure.
I was told about the world youth title sailors having to rebend there masts after every race because of the rule 5 "No bend rule". The intire fleet was jumping over the fence to rebend them back into shape. Should you have to do that? I'm not really sure.
 
Guys. None of this matters until boats are lined up on the starting line. I say practice with what you want. Club race with what ever your club fleet thinks is ok. However, when you venture from your home waters to race, (or race an open event in your home waters) you better have all class approved stuff on board.

2 points- 1) class stuff is expensive. I say overpriced. 2) if there is an avenue for me to spend less money and still bo on the water while saving my expensive class stuff for the real thing then I see no problem with it as long as my fleet is cool with it too.

Maybe when "Laser" witnesses a decline in their "consumables" they'll get in line with the market, but maintain their monopoly.
 
An alternative to a class monopoly on sails I have not seen mentioned here is the practice in some classes of letting anyone make and sell sails, provided they satisfy the rules, and then require purchase of a "royalty" patch to be sewn on the sail. This way the class organizaiton gets its cut from every sail sale, but competition among sailmakers can keep the price down and encourage the making of better sails. To be used in a class sanctioned race, every sail must hav the royalty patch.
 
Nothing new John, it's been talked about for ages.

On top of that it doesn't guarantee low prices, if it did, a 470 jib wouldn't cost $500+ and a Star jib wouldn't cost $800+ for example.
 
I think the system of very limited manufactures is good. After all, every boat is meant to be as identical as reasonably feasible. start opening to loads of others and there will start to be claims of X's sail being faster that Y's despite the fact that they should be identical - and then it's no longer really what I would call a strict one design.


If people are unhappy about the prices of sales in the US I guess there are two things they could try:


1. Visit Europe and buy one there (and when you watch your bank balance you wont think the US ones are expensive any more).


or


2. Maybe somebody should establish how the price of a sail is divided-up. For example, the more expensive UK sails purchased from PSE (manufacturer) have relatively few people taking their cut in the cost. Maybe if you buy through a dealer then the price has to be split further (i.e. you are paying for the convenience of walking into you local shop and buying a new sail there and then (and holding stock does cost money). Maybe somebody should publish what the manufacturer gets, what the Laser Class Assn gets, what Vanguard/PSE get, what the dealer gets, etc. Should it be cheaper getting a sail from Vanguard/PSE (fewer people taking their cut) ? Maybe the Class Assn should start selling sails directly (again. lower stock, fewer people taking a cut so cheaper ?) and at least that way profit goes to the class and thus back into regattas, newsletters, etc.


Ian
 
2. Maybe somebody should establish how the price of a sail is divided-up.
( that has been done and we already have prices)
For example, the more expensive UK sails purchased from PSE (manufacturer) have relatively few people taking their cut in the cost. Maybe if you buy through a dealer then the price has to be split further (i.e. you are paying for the convenience of walking into you local shop and buying a new sail there and then (and holding stock does cost money). ( and if we want that service we must be willing to pay for that service. Also. Don't ask whether you in particular want that service for yourself. Ask whether the game of sailing in your area can benefit from having sails in stock at a local dealer. Is the value to your gsame worth the price?)Maybe somebody should publish what the manufacturer gets, what the Laser Class Assn gets, what Vanguard/PSE get, what the dealer gets, etc. (If you want to do that, Why don't you find out those answers and publish them yourself)Should it be cheaper getting a sail from Vanguard/PSE (fewer people taking their cut) ? (I am a stocking dealer for many products. If I ever find out Vanguard or any other supplier who also supplies me is selling backdoor product and underpricing me, I will most certainly drop their line of product instantly! How the hell can I pay my flootrrplan and stocking costs when the very people whgo benefit from my marketing are undercutting my efforts?)(Maybe the Class Assn should start selling sails directly (again. lower stock, fewer people taking a cut so cheaper ?) and at least that way profit goes to the class and thus back into regattas, newsletters, etc.(If the class goes into the business of selling the products its advertisers currently sell. who the hell will advertise in and pay for the newsletters and websites we have now? Our class already has so little manpower that hundrreds of Laser events go on with no advance Class promotion or support. he last thing our class needs is more work and an adversarial relationship with former advertisers.

Ian

woof
 


Personally I'm not too concerned about the price of sails, but it seems to come-up every few weeks so I just thought some suggestions that might make people appreciate what can and cannot be done.


Not seen the breakdown of prices myself but then I've not searched as, when I need a new sail I am pretty limited in choice as to where to get it from. Not happy or unhappy about that - it's just how it is.


I don't know how things are organised in the US but I have never (in many years of owning boats) purchased any sail from a chandler. Always gone to the sailmaker (or in case of Laser to PSE). I have the impression its the way most people do it in the UK. Only recently started in dinghy's again so maybe things have changed a bit but for larger boars (One Designs) you get them from the approved sailmaker direct. Before that, in dinghy's again, the sailmaker direct.


Ian
 

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