New Sunfish Sail Question

I am getting back into Sunfish racing after a 23 year absence.
My 2005 boat, foils and spars are excellent.
The 2005 sail seems quite good too.
But at the Master Worlds in Florida this weekend I saw lots of new, crisp sails that sure did look fuller and with better shape than mine.
Significantly faster in light to medium winds, too.
Has the sail been re-designed since 2005 to be that much better?
I can't see my sail with little real use getting that much different.
Oh, and does it really cost nearly $500 for a new sail?
Yikes.
Should I get one from one area rather than another, or are they really all the same Sri Lanka Norths?

Dave Ellis
79301
 
I too am getting back in this..and I can only imagine that technology and composite fabrics are better than ever...$500 bucks seems about right if a normal SF sail is $350?? maybe a custom sail maker can do the trick for you locally....good luck keep us posted
 
Uh, no, if I am to race the Sunfish it must be the official sail.
No choice.
If it were not I would make my own sail!
Dave Ellis
 
The sails have not changed since 2005. They changed a bit when they went to Sri Lanka, but everyone uses Sri Lankan sails. Next time you are at a big event, ask one of the fast people to look at your sail. The sail is sensitive to luff tension, and in light air to foot tension. Gooseneck location is also important. An expert will be glad to have a look. And some of those sailors are just FAST - Greg Gust and Tom Whitehurst in particular. Be sure to observe the amount of heel the fast folks have, as well as body placement in the boat, and sheet tension. If your gooseneck is similarly positioned vs the others, you can judge sheet tension by seeing how much sheet there is between the rear block and the bridle. BB
 
Laserites complain quite a bit about differences among their North sails. These sails are made in the same loft in Sri Lanka as the Sunfish ones.
Some have surmised on this forum that as far as quality control is concerned, the Sunfish ones range even below the Laser ones. Of course, that is really hard to judge, so take that statement/opinion with a grain of salt.
 
I sailed in the Sunfish Worlds last year, and the Sunfish NAs last summer and the summer before, and there was no complaining amongst the fleet about sail quality or variation. I think a lot of us think the blue/yellow sails from the Buffalo Worlds were unusually large and fast, but aside from that, I don't think there have been any widespread recent issues.

I bought a 2001 Sunfish new, and that sail was awful - went low and slow, so it does happen, but I don't think it is frequent.

Chris
 
I've been sailboat racing for a very long time. I think I am qualified to see sail shape diffences. (I'm an official 505 sail measurer, among other things,)
I did see a difference in the sail cross section shapes at the Master Worlds in Tampa this year.
Some of the crispy new sails seemed significantly more full over all.
As for my 2005, it just seemed mis-shapen. Also has a slight curl to the leach.
But after getting home from the regatta I cleaned off the salt and grunge from the sail and took a good look at the set up.
Lo and behold, it was not set up according to the recognized method, shown in the books.
The halyard was eight inches off. The uphaul on the upper spar was WAY loose.
So, it is my fault for just buying a used Sunfish and going sailing.
Maybe next event I won't be passed on both sides by the hot shots.
Dave Ellis
79301
 
Those changes should make a difference. I do encourage you to ask for advice when you are having trouble. Sunfish racers are usually very happy to help. Always a good idea to copy the competition - having your sail 8 inches higher than the fleet is going to make you slower. BB
 
Lay two sails on top of each other and check them out? At one point they started cutting the sail fuller, was it after 2005? Anyone got an old and new with pics to compare?
 
Lay two sails on top of each other and check them out? At one point they started cutting the sail fuller, was it after 2005? Anyone got an old and new with pics to compare?
Laying two sails on each other will not tell you if the broadseaming changeD. But in any event the last time there was any known change to the sail was when production moved to Sri Lanka 15 years or so back. At that point the cloth changed some.

TAG is right that Scott's tuning article is good, but the gooseneck settings in it were made obsolete when the plastic daggerboard was introduced.
 
TAG is right that Scott's tuning article is good, but the gooseneck settings in it were made obsolete when the plastic daggerboard was introduced.

BB, can you go into more detail on how the gooseneck settings change with the plastic board? Or what they should be now?

Thanks,
tag
 
More draft everywhere, not just the foot.
And the draft is placed well, not just 'there' to be a full sail.
My original question was whether my 2005 white sail with window was the same shape as a new 2013 sail that many seemed to have at the Master Worlds.
I think mine is the same.
I just had it set up incorrectly.
Thus far nobody has shown that the 2005 new sails from Sri Lanka are cut differently than my 2005.
So far.
Dave Ellis
79301
 
BB, can you go into more detail on how the gooseneck settings change with the plastic board? Or what they should be now?

Back in the wooden board days, if you put the gooseneck up at 14-15 inches, the blade did not have enough lift and would stall. The plastic blades, which are foil-shaped, have more lift. With the g-neck at 14-15 inches the board no longer stalls. And it turns out that the boat us fast In up to 12 kts or so at 15 inches. If you tried that setting with a wood board you would just go sideways.
 
I have not posted for a long time and my boat is still in hibernation as we still have snow swirling around here in Eastern Canada. I am getting ready for a few weeks in Tampa FL area on the gulf beaches and so I was checking out Craigslist for that area and I see that the Sunfish boats that were used for the resent worlds are for sale. That got me thinking about sailing and the forum, so here I am again.
I remember reading that racer's use to pick through the local boat shops inventory sunfish sails to find the best sail for racing. With the advancement of computer lofting and cutting is there any reason to think that these sails are not all exactly the same? I am sure a lot of people just order a new sail online now days but I know if I had the choice I would sooner pick through an inventory of racing sails or even recreational sail looking for shape differences . The observations of the sails used in Buffalo are a case in point.
The benefits of the new center board seem to be well documented and that is what had me looking on craigslist Tampa. I would love to pick up one of those boats but for now a new sail and centerboard would be fine.
Minas man
 
Are you racing? Or just recreational?

First off, I doubt that any dealer these days is going to let you unwrap new sails from their plastic bags and let you lay them out, hoping that you will fold them back properly, clean-as-new, with no new creases or signs they've been opened. Second, think about when you've taken a brand new sail out of the bag and tried to lay it smooth (even to just put numbers on, for example). The fold creases prevent laying it flat even to be able to tell relative sizes with much precision.

If you are talking recreational, or even some casual club racing, I'd lean towards Intensity's aftermarket, for the value and the quality. In one regard, I still feel that defection is almost sacrilegious, but based on my own limited new-sail purchase experience, I've had it with the North crap-shoot. For all that money I have higher one-design standards than what I actually got, or have observed. In my case I figured I must be going nuts, but after listening to a rant from a New England class stalwart about his overlaying sails from different eras on each other and finding variations not so much in the way they are cut but the way they are sewn, I'm not so sure I'm crazy. Ok, I got that off.

Comparing the earlier Sri Lankan sails for a bit over decade ago at one extreme, to the Buffalo ones at the other - and those are no myth - and everything in between, and again the price premium for his supposed one- design quality control, I'd go with intensity unless you are looking at class events, in which case it's North, and I'd be curious if you could find some way to do much individual inspection.
 
I remember back in the day a Star class racer was trying to determine which jib went best with each mainsail he owned. The boat was on land and he used a long tell tale on a stick to check the airflow from the jib to the main. Took him all day to do this but I was never sure if he got his answer. My point being that just looking at the sails on the ground probably won't tell you much especially the before mentioned creases still being in the sail. I suspect that if the sails are all made at the same loft, then they are pretty close to being the same. Perhaps the buffalo sails were made at a different sail loft.

There was also a story that one of the greatest sailors (Paul Elvstrom) admitted that he may not have been the fastest boat in a tack, but by the later races he was still doing 10 second tacks whereas the others that started the day at 7 second tacks, were now doing 13 second tacks. So the little differences in sail shape or cut, could be made up in sailing skill.
 
after listening to a rant from a New England class stalwart about his overlaying sails from different eras on each other and finding variations not so much in the way they are cut but the way they are sewn, I'm not so sure I'm crazy.
Does your stalwart NE sailor have the initials GG? If so, we can follow up by PM.
 
Back to the original question about 2005 sails.
I set the sail up according to the printed suggestions.
What a difference.
In the Florida Regionals Saturday races I managed 1-2-5-1 in nice breeze.
(Uh, the race 4 first was not "beeped" when I crossed the line. Those of us who followed the On-line Sailing Instructinos sailed course 3 as shown. The printed ones handed out showed a different course 3. So much for saving trees.)
Point is, set the sail on the booms and on the mast c orrectly.
Made a huge difference.
Dave Ellis
PS: Boat is for sale $1775 with Sietech dolly and Harbor Freight road trailer.
 
And yes, the 2005 North Sri Lanka Race Sail is pretty much the same as the 2013 North Sri Lanka Race Sail ...
 

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