Class Politics Stuff it Kirby!!

Are you one of the 122 or the 1017?


  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
We are all mushroom sailors...

That's the most frustrating thing about this whole mess. We never did get enough information to make a good decision on how to vote on the rule change, so those of us who did vote just had to make a guess based on partial knowledge. Some people regretted their vote before voting closed, but it was too late - they couldn't change their votes. Some of you seem to be regretting your vote now based on various random opinions and facts that are trickling out.

Of all the people involved in this, LPE and Global Sailing, as far as I know, never told us anything about their dispute. Why should they? We are only their customers and prospective customers. The people pushing the rule change, Heini and Jeff, fed us a few morsels but by no means enough, and some of what they did tell us seems to have been wrong. Tracy Usher did his best to explain the situation in a number of posts here but even he seemed to be partly in the dark. And Bruce Kirby has gone public a couple of times, but he obviously has an axe to grind and, while I'm predisposed to support his efforts to protect his design rights, I have no real idea whether he is at least partly responsible for causing this mess in the first place.

We were told we had to vote immediately. (Really we didn't.) We were told that patents had expired. (There never were any patents.) The wording of the rule change was altered part way through the voting. The ILCA website only ever carried arguments for one side of the issue. What a way to run an election!

I still have some hope that sharing and discussing what little we do know on forums like this does help a bit in making sense of the situation. But, for now, this mushroom is going sailing.
 
Well, I would only say that I for one had enough information. That time came when BK's lawyers apparently threatened a poster with legal action for simply stating what seemed like the guy's (who seemingly had no dog in the fight) opinion on the other thread. Then a class official (speaking only as a private individual and not as a class official) commented words to the effect of it seemed like a pretty accurate summary. Add on top of that, that the summary seemed to jive with what little information was out there about this specifically even from Kirby as well as what is in the public forum with re design patents, trademarks, and copyright, and in my opinion Kirby went from nice old white hair gentleman who designed a cool boat many decades ago to perhaps a guy with his hand in my pocket driving up the cost of our game without any real basis to do so. Personally, I wish Kirby had released more facts (and less apparent snow job) about what rights he actually was claiming and what the basis for them is (IP, trademark or copyright and if other than that that, be clear what the other is) instead of apparently threatening to sue a guy for expressing a what seemed like a well-founded opinion that Kirby - what - did not like?? I could only speculate and actually had new-found respect for class leadership for doing what they could to extract sailors from the middle of a mess that the sailors did not create. What a no win situation for leadership.

If there is any one thing I learned from all this its never ever get involved in any official capacity as a class official. We as sailors have the option of just going and sailing our boats with our friends. Leadership appears to have been in the wonderful position of the guy with a dime pocket-knife stuck in the middle of a gun fight between some well armed dudes that leadership wanted nothing to do with and apparently asked to put away the guns (without success). I mean, come on, unless I am mis-recalling there was lots of noise that the builder fight was going to get ugly and seemed headed towards splitting the class (was it GS that sent out feelers looking for EU distributers of a Kirby class sailboat... same or similar language Kirby now uses with re Laser). So if leadership does nothing there is a risk and if they do... Then class members throw leadership under the bus for not providing enough information all while the post referencing Kirby's lawyers aggressive action against a poster sure suggests leadership would have dragged into personal litigation if they went too far in releasing information.

What a mess, and glad to just go sailing, but to me a yes vote was very easy and no I would not want to change it.
 
If I could I would remove all my previous comments.

:) Well, if you do a 360, all is forgiven....:)

Seriously, we should all go out, sail our Kirby sailboats and forget about the mess.

I decided a while ago not to post anymore on the subject, because my simple mind just couldn't comprehend what was going on. It appears, I am not the only one with that problem.
 
:) Well, if you do a 360, all is forgiven....:)

Seriously, we should all go out, sail our Kirby sailboats and forget about the mess.

I decided a while ago not to post anymore on the subject, because my simple mind just couldn't comprehend what was going on. It appears, I am not the only one with that problem.

A simple mind ? :D
 
And thus, the new class name was coined......
That is pretty funny.

"I was out sailing a Kirby Shroom!"

Feelin a return of the 60s.

Who wants to take a shot at the new logo to replace the laser beam and starburst? I am seeing a return of the orange hulls... man!
 
Who wants to take a shot at the new logo to replace the laser beam and starburst? I am seeing a return of the orange hulls... man!

Orange hulls never left us...they just got shuffled to the back of the dinghy park and are unloved....perhaps we should start a charity.....

In all seriousness I believe you can specify a gel coat colour, you have to pay (even more of) a premium for it and wait until there is a production run. Personally just go for an after market waterline vinyl wrap job, probable cheaper and you can always peel it off......
 
This seems apropos.
 

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I dropped off a trailer full of boats at LCYC last night. Wurstfest regatta is just a few hours off. My boat is already rigged and ready to walk down the ramp.

You guys are not solving a damn thing by wasting your lives worrying about the businessmen who are attempting to control pieces of the little plastic boat pie.
 
I dropped off a trailer full of boats at LCYC last night. Wurstfest regatta is just a few hours off. My boat is already rigged and ready to walk down the ramp.

You guys are not solving a damn thing by wasting your lives worrying about the businessmen who are attempting to control pieces of the little plastic boat pie.

Mr. Gouvernail,

I doubt anyone here is worrying much at all. They are in fact replying to a thread that you, dear sir, started! Should it make you feel any better I promise you that I shall spend no time worrying this weekend and in fact plan to do some sail testing on my F27 trimaran. Looks like we should have about 15 knots of breeze so I hope to be going faster than you on your Laser! If time permits I also hope to dust off the Laser and my drysuit - I am not so lucky as you geographically speaking - and try to shake the cobwebs in advance of Laser frostbiting in a few weeks.

Seriously, I think most everyone knows - now that the vote is done - they are simply along for a ride that ISAF is controlling. But it is fun to watch and speculate. Its a bit like being in a mark boat at the windward mark. We have GS and LPE fighting for first coming in fast on the starboard tack lay line. Getting gassed and fighting for clear air also on starboard is the ICLA boat struggling to make the mark. And then there is Kirby looking to be deep and coming in on the port tack layline... and oh, what is this... the breeze is shifting left and going soft. And here comes the ISAF umpire boats with penalty flags ready to fly. LPE makes an aggressive roll tack over and back while hailing Kirby "not to go in there..." Come on, you have to admit its going to be an interesting mark rounding. And can businessmen and lawyers roll tack?

BTW, cool shroom Merrily and love the color but it sort of says nuclear option (which maybe was intentional on your part??). I was hoping for more of a flower power child kind of theme. Peace and love, peace and love...

Maybe it even works at crowded mark roundings!!

Have a good race Gouv,

The Old Dude
 
Do you think we could get the Intensity Sails guy to make a run of sails with a 'shroom logo?

Can just in case any of you are wondering where this mushroom stuff started:

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-01-29/sports/sp-1993_1_mushroom-crew

And what is the mushroom boat? It started while the team was training in Hawaii, after Dennis Conner took delivery of '87 and turned '85 over to veteran helmsman Jack Sutphen as the trial boat.

Sutphen, who has sailed 10 12-meters in four America's Cup campaigns, says he wasn't always sure of the day's game plan.

"They would say, 'OK, it's light and fluky so we'll do some windward-leeward races for a while,' then they'd change their minds and do something else," Sutphen said. "We never knew.
"One of the crew finally said: 'You know, we live in the dark.' And another guy said, 'Yeah, we're mushrooms. We never know what's going on. Nobody ever interviews us or asks to take pictures of us.'

"So we made the mushroom flag. We're the mushroom crew. And now Australia picked it up on their second boat. We go by and salute each other. It's pretty good. They have an identity. Finally, after all this time, this trial horse crew is willing to have an identity.

"Before, they thought they were like subs for the first boat. Now they're sort of professional about it

And the whole expression is "kept in the dark and fed on...", which seeing as this is a family board I won't finish. No reason to make life tough for Merrily.
 
It's a bit like being in a mark boat at the windward mark. We have GS and LPE fighting for first coming in fast on the starboard tack lay line. Getting gassed and fighting for clear air also on starboard is the ICLA boat struggling to make the mark. And then there is Kirby looking to be deep and coming in on the port tack layline... and oh, what is this... the breeze is shifting left and going soft. And here comes the ISAF umpire boats with penalty flags ready to fly. LPE makes an aggressive roll tack over and back while hailing Kirby "not to go in there..." Come on, you have to admit its going to be an interesting mark rounding.

This is the best explanation I have seen yet of what is going on. Why didn't anybody explain it in terms we could understand before?
 
And thus, the new class name was coined......

Nope!:p

Some month's ago, Merrily in wise inspiration already started a related Thread at TLF about a new class name :D

As the honored founder and 1st member of the "ILUCA", I remember to this here :cool: :
http://sailingforums.com/threads/new-non-legal-laser-class-name.21435/#post-103439

You find me on my "Klingaser", on our to small pool, on Sunday (final 2011 sailing event / Yardstick race, here where I sail) at the starting line, at 14:00 CET+1 1st race start ... ;)

KAPPLACH!!
(="Klingon"language -> translation for: "Have fun!" )
LooserLu
 
To get serious for a while.... does anyone understand the process and timing for submitting the new version of the Fundamental Rule for approval by ISAF? Does it have to go to one of the twice-a-year ISAF meetings?

The annual ISAF meeting is going on this weekend in Puerto Rico but I can't find any mention on the ISAF website of a Laser class fundamental rule change in any of the submissions or on the agendas of relevant subcommittees. In any case, the cutoff for submissions for this meeting was August 1 which was before voting on the rule change was complete. Does this mean that the rule change will have to be submitted to the next ISAF mid-year meeting (which I assume will be in May next year)?

And if so, in the meantime are LPE Lasers really Lasers?
 
To get serious for a while.... does anyone understand the process and timing for submitting the new version of the Fundamental Rule for approval by ISAF? Does it have to go to one of the twice-a-year ISAF meetings?

My understanding is that class rule changes can be approved by the ISAF class rules sub-committee at any time through the year. If the committee says no the class has 30 days to comment and the committee will then reconsider. If they say no again, ILCA can refer the change to the ISAF Council. All from section 10.11 of the ISAF regulations.

Section 10.3 is interesting (Section 10 is all about the set up of ISAF classes)...

10.3 There shall be an executed agreement between the ISAF Ltd., the Class/Owners Association and where relevant the Trademark, Trade Name and the Copyright Owner. This agreement shall include at a minimum the following matters:
(a) define, if any, the ownership of the Copyright, Trade Name and Trademark and establish the rights granted and the responsibilities, obligations and restrictions that apply to the use of such rights generally and among the parties to the agreement;
...

So an agreement exists between ISAF, ILCA, the builders, and maybe BKI that in some way sets out the rights of the various parties. Copyright is mentioned where applicable, but no mention of design rights...
 
My understanding is that class rule changes can be approved by the ISAF class rules sub-committee at any time through the year. If the committee says no the class has 30 days to comment and the committee will then reconsider. If they say no again, ILCA can refer the change to the ISAF Council. All from section 10.11 of the ISAF regulations.

Section 10.3 is interesting (Section 10 is all about the set up of ISAF classes)...

10.3 There shall be an executed agreement between the ISAF Ltd., the Class/Owners Association and where relevant the Trademark, Trade Name and the Copyright Owner. This agreement shall include at a minimum the following matters:
(a) define, if any, the ownership of the Copyright, Trade Name and Trademark and establish the rights granted and the responsibilities, obligations and restrictions that apply to the use of such rights generally and among the parties to the agreement;
...

So an agreement exists between ISAF, ILCA, the builders, and maybe BKI that in some way sets out the rights of the various parties. Copyright is mentioned where applicable, but no mention of design rights...

Tillerman,

I think Redstar has is right on timing. I am not sure about the last line though.

I am not a lawyer - just deal w agreements all the time. Based on that I would guess that ISAF was a named party to a section(s) of an agreement(s) between the parties. There are mechanisms for that so I doubt ISAF has the whole picture by virtue of the agreements requirement of 10.3. What I really wonder about is how ISAF deals w 10.3 for the EU where I think (??) BKI sold its trademark rights to LPE. So in theory ISAF should have some agreement w LPE. Or mayve there is some umbrella that deals w it all. We likely never know.

Going sailing for a bit and be interested to see what shakes when I get back.

Old Dude
 
Seems to me that it's a business trying to lower expenses and not pay royalities...

I think it's a sad day for the fleet.
 
I just got the class membership renewal form in the mail yesterday. Do I make the check out to ILCA-NA or IKCA-NA?

TIA
 
According to the minutes of the October meeting of the North American Laser Class Executive Committee, there was going to be a meeting of the ILCA World Council last weekend (November 5-6) the main focus of which would be to discuss "the next step for the change in the fundamental rule." I wonder if anyone is going to tell the members of the class what was decided at that meeting?

I don't think that is happening. When the leadership announced the membership vote result they said "Therefore we will seek the approval of ISAF within the next few days as required by the ILCA Class Rules, part five article 30(d)."(http://www.laserinternational.org/info/fundamentalrulechangevotingresults). That was back on the 28th Oct so, allowing for "the next few days" and assuming they are telling us the truth, then the ISAF have probably already decided. They refer to the ISAF but make no mention of the World Council. Alternatively, maybe they are being economical with information (again).

Ian
 
I don't think that is happening. When the leadership announced the membership vote result they said "Therefore we will seek the approval of ISAF within the next few days as required by the ILCA Class Rules, part five article 30(d)."(http://www.laserinternational.org/info/fundamentalrulechangevotingresults). That was back on the 28th Oct so, allowing for "the next few days" and assuming they are telling us the truth, then the ISAF have probably already decided. They refer to the ISAF but make no mention of the World Council. Alternatively, maybe they are being economical with information (again).

Ian

This appeared a few days ago on a UK sailing site, taken at a London hotel.

6314221239_02cddedb97.jpg


http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7705&PN=15
 
So somebody in the class office posted a message on the class website saying that they are going to go ahead and seek ISAF approval for the fundamental rule change. Meanwhile the World Council (mainly composed of representatives of real class members around the world) says they're going to have a meeting to discuss what the next step should actually be on this rule change. Presumably at least some members of the World Council don't necessarily agree with just going ahead and seeking ISAF approval - perhaps because of the changed circumstances since the original decision by the World Council to seek a rule change, perhaps because of the various irregularities in the voting process. Why else would it be necessary to discuss the "next step"?

At the same time, the other main focus of this World Council meeting was to be a "review of the ICLA office staff structure" (according to the minutes of the NA Excom meeting.)

There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear.
 
http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Perth-2011---Not-always-happy-families-on-Olympic-class-sailing-scene/90560

So now I’m really confused. I feel the need to be upset at someone, but my poor little brain isn’t capable of working out who. Can someone, more intelligent than myself, please explain who are the goodies and who are the baddies? Are PSA (the aussies) evil because they are planning world domination? Did they really try and strip Performance Sailing (Rest of the world excluding a tiny bit of Asia) of their rights to sell Lasers, so that the aussies could capture the entire world market? Are Performance Sailing the victimised party who are just defending their business against a bully?

Or perhaps Performance Sailing are the evil protagonists, starving the Rest of the world, excluding a tiny bit of Asia, of their supply of Laser parts, and overcharging for substandard parts and generally alienating their customer base? And now, heavens above, deciding we are not worthy of a new class sail and holding the entire class hostage to the dark age of 3.8 oz of @rse wipe substitute. Are PSA the saviours from down under, riding to the rescue of the class with an ability to provide a steady stream of quality lasers and parts to not only Aus, but also the rest of the world (except that poor tiny wee bit of Asia), and also gain hero status amongst the masses by providing us all with a new shinny looking sail that will take us from the dark ages into at least the tail end of the last century? Should we, the people, get behind them and demand that Performance Sailing are run out of the town like a North African dictator?

I’ve no idea. But I must be mad at someone. Perhaps both Performance Sailing and PSA are beacons of purity and light, and it is me that is evil? Perhaps I should punish myself by spending my entire race this weekend perpetually doing penalty turns? Or perhaps it is the fault of that Knob End who thinks coming in on a port lay line and tacking right under me within the three length zone to the windward mark is a really cool idea. Yeah – it’s clearly all his faults. If you are one of those who enjoy pulling this manoeuvre off, look out this weekend. I’m going to be sailing angry.
 
Suthera....use mere mortals will probably never know. Even those who are on the inside of the class do not know...those who have contacts do not know...I doubt even PSA, GS, LP and BK know the full story even if you got them in to a room!

Suffice to say it is a mess and damn well needs to be sorted out so we can get the lovely new sail that everyone is raving about (although I did read that it has been 7 years in development....). My own view is that the jury is still out on the top section issue (especially as it only seems to be the 'new' top sections that are bending easily, builder collusion I hear you say, wash your mouth out!).
 
The following is posted without benefit of many hours considering its exact wording. Please simply consider the basic concept:


The builders are so foolish they are letting go of the marionette strings that have for 40 years, controlled the activities of the classes. The funding has stopped.

For four decades, those of us who simply wanted to race identical boats controlled by a set of rules, had no option but to race lasers. Laser builders gave so much money to ISAF and ILCA that neither organization would consider simply describing the one design toy and allowing all those who passed measurement to be used.
This abandonment of the supportive / defensive investment position by the North American and European builder is an opportunity for all of us to get our heads out of the sand and turn singlehanded sailing into a real game like football or basketball where the toys are defined and anybody anywhere in the world need only show up with a legal toy to play the game.

As building plastic boats is only sensible with molds and mass production, it would be simple to have ISAF and the ILCA CERTIFY builders such that any boat produced by one of the few interested builders would be considered legal for the game. There could be regular inspections of the products and facilities to guarantee compliance with the design so we could guarantee our game toys would be as equal as possible. Home building could be legal as well . All we would need is a simple inspection ssytem where we would test boats and certify those boats as legal.
The game could be played all over the world with no more single builders holding our game hostage.
all ILCA and ISAF need to do is continue the process that has already begun. The Kirby contract requitrement is history.
All that remains is the absurd self imposed Stockholm Syndrome style faithful to the abusers class rule about copyright holding and the name of the toys.
Let's simply allow all boats that meet the builder's manual to be used on our race courses.
There are guys like me all over the planet who love sailboat racing and know how to build simple litle 14 foot toys.
if the class will simply allow the toys anyone builds to play with those built by the builders who no longer care to support the game, we can have locally built singlehanders just like the teh toys we have been using produced all over the planet.
Also realize: The guys who already are set up to build Lasers can easily build boats more effeciently and for less money out the door than a shop like mine.
But
They only need to beat my price and keep teh rest of us out of the contest if we allow teh rest of us into the contest.
One possible answer to "screw you. What are you gonna do about it" is ...Let somebody else build the toys we love to use.
 
Just like the optimist with 3 makers of spars, 10+makers of foils, same for sails and 10+ makers of hulls ranging from $ 3500 to 8000 for a complete boat. But you need an approval sytem for the builders to verify that their moulds and procedures are OK.
 
The following is posted without benefit of many hours considering its exact wording. Please simply consider the basic concept:

The builders are so foolish they are letting go of the marionette strings that have for 40 years, controlled the activities of the classes. The funding has stopped....

My initial reaction is that I don't agree. For me, there is an important aspect of the limited manufacture; namely that there can never be any consideration about somebody having a "faster boat". Of course boats age, get soft, get mistreated (as do sails, etc.), but with a range of different e.g. builders, soon comments will start that "Gov Hulls" are faster - mainly because the individual helming is better. But that the winner has a "Gov Hull" and the mid fleet guy has a "Snail Hull" means that (s)he can blame their result on the hull design, etc. So "Gov Hulls" become sought after (and thus more expensive). Same with sails and gear in general. OK, hulls are the same but that won't stop talk. We already have rumours that "Aus hulls" are faster than US/European hulls.

There are loads of great classes that have a rule and any builder can build and be measured and some builders are considered faster than others (though they use the same rules). The one thing Lasers have is that there are no arguments about certain manufacturers being faster. And for me that is an important aspect to the class.

Ian
 
The Opti model works pretty well - the "we build faster boats than you" factor is the only problem but it's pretty much marketing with no substance. Sails and spars are a different story, but they do need to be tailored to the kid's size so strict one design isn't really possible there. That shouldn't be a problem for the Laser as we have the three rigs so we can specify tighter controls over each component.

It's still a big gamble though, no silver bullet. It's quite possible prices would rise and/or quality would decrease. Maybe this is just an Australian experience but for all our complaining we do have it pretty good at the moment compared with most other classes.
 
Wow, Gouv, great mark rounding. That was a rapid transition from upwind to downwind. :)

I must say, I like the cut of your new jib - oh wait, that does not work here. Uh... how about, that is a catchy tune you are singing and I have heard many of the faithful humming same. I think even the church preacher is trying to hide a smile of appreciation. The problem is the two choir directors sit on the church advisory board and they don't like that kind of rock and roll, no? I wonder though, this new sea breeze might stick around for a bit! But what to do with the choir directors? They are 2 of 4.

I am not sure I understand your point Mr. Ian. That issue always exists - even now, no? What is faster Hyde or North. EU or AUS boats. Sailing the angles or soaking deep? This new church wine might just be better than the old beer. It seemed a bit stale and expensive.
 
I am not sure I understand your point Mr. Ian. That issue always exists - even now, no? What is faster Hyde or North. EU or AUS boats.

Not an issue for me. We can only buy EU boats and only buy the one Laser class sail. At the moment everything is checked by one organisation so nobody is looking for "an edge" (some sales pitch to allow them to sell more/higher priced boats. When I used to sail Fireballs is was quite a major issue as to which builder, which sailmaker, etc. was fastest. It is already happening with Lasers and the advent of 3rd party sails. There is a lot of discussion at clubs and I think the strict one-design ethic is starting to make a come-back (i.e. a Laser must be a Laser). Lots of nice boats where the class is the rule and anybody builds and is measured. Laser is different from then because it is much stricter. Not important to everybody but I am starting to get vibes that it is important to far more than I thought. A lot of people who use 3rd party sails actually prefer the strict one design but will not spend the money when others don't. Given a choice they would go class legal.

Ian
 
Our good friend Alan D (ISAF Measurer) will point out, as he has done repeatedly in the past, that measuring some 100 or more boats at a 'serious' regatta is a major hassle for all concerned.

I much prefer to stay with the strict one-design principle, although the current fracas needs to be resolved (duh...).
 
Why measure any boats at regattas other than spot checks followed by lifetime bans for those caught with modified boats??

It seems my suggestion proposed we continue certifying buiilders with regular inspections of their products and we allow anyone to build a boat and it may be raced forever once individually inspected.

Did you fail to comprehend my post or are you just making up arguments for the sake of argument??

I believe my system would allow for tighter controls than simply trusting anyone who has a traemark to build our toys.
 
Why measure any boats at regattas other than spot checks followed by lifetime bans for those caught with modified boats??
Strangely enough, 50% of the major measurement issues I've had at major regattas have been with the builders quality control e.g battens or incorrectly placed radial bottom sleeves, or equipment supplied with new boats being illegal e.g. hiking straps with two loops. The remaining 50% of issues generally fall into people not being able to rig their control lines legally, incorrectly placed sail numbers or with local (national) safety requirements. It's incredibly rare that you'll meet up with something where you suspect that the competitor is doing something where that hope to gain some advantage by modifying their boats in some way.

Quality control issues should be picked up in house and by the technical officer, these should also be addressed immediately. How many decades did we go with battens that were 2mm too long? The safety requirement should be being addressed at club level. Which leaves the rigging and a few other little bits and pieces that should be checked at regattas and really is an educational issue.

Personally I thought that the ILCA rushed in the new control lines. I would have preferred if a new set of lines of lines were introduced that had to be rigged in one way only. You used the new system in it's entirety or used the old system with loops and no pulleys. It would have eliminated the issues I see with the control lines.
 
Well put Alan. I believe over here that any measurement that takes place (for any class) only relates to that class of boat. All other requirements such as local safety requirements etc.. are the responsbility of the organising club to communicate out to the sailors and then the onus is on the sailor themself to ensure everything is adhered to. There is ususally a clause in the entry (that the sailor signs) that waives the club of responsibility and places the responsiblity on the sailor except in cases of proven negligence.

As for the current top and matters of discussion there is a pretty lively discussion taking place over on the Yachts and Yachting (primarily a UK sailing site) regarding the top mast. It is worth bearing in mind that a lot of the contributoirs are not current sailing Lasers and some have never sailed a Laser...

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8559&title=laser-topmasts

Some also have some very strange ideas about how to move the class forward. The general concensus of opinion is that all involved parties need to get their houses in order and the current situation resolved ASAP.
 
I thought I'd posted a reply with regards your other forum Jeffers, maybe not.

Anyway it seems that many there no very little about the class rules and how they have changed over the years. My 1993 Class handbook (and class rules) has the same wording for the tiller as the current rules, well before anyone was using carbon tillers with or without low profiles. Every time new equipment has been approved the ILCA has tried to make sure that there has been no performance advantage, there are certainly quite a few top guys still using the old vangs, the advantage of the new control lines is that it lets people with less strength adjust their control lines, I adjust my control lines no differently than I used to but I always had the strength and technique to do so, even before thimbles were permitted, for me the change has meant that I replace my lines every 12 months now, instead of 3-4 times a year. The change in sail cloth, has increased the durability of the sail, I can imagine the complaints these days if we still had 3.2oz sails and their durability or lack thereof.
 

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